[Politics] Political Questions and a Massive Angry Rant

[Elvis Starburst]

Note: There won't be a TL;DR on this. If the post length intimidates you, then you don't need to be that curious. I'm honestly just venting/bitching cause a political discussion put me in a really bad mood, and I wanted to put it out to anyone that cared to listen or add their feelings. That's all this is. I am not looking to turn this into a big mess of "X people who align with X political party are bad!" or "I hate X politician, it's all his fault!" If that's what you wanna turn this into, then you don't need to be here, and I kindly ask you turn around and go elsewhere. If you do try to turn this into one of the above examples, I will probably vent back at you, and you won't be changing my mind. There's also a ton of F-bombs, but it's something I felt like using a lot.

Sound fun? Then enjoy the madness.

-------------------------------------------------------

I got into a political discussion with a co-worker that I wasn't exactly planned for, so my points ended up being kinda crap and not well worded. But one thing I made extremely clear is that I do not vote for anyone at this point. And by the end, he said "You said it yourself you don't even vote, so I don't care to listen to your thoughts." and it kinda pissed me off.

He made a point earlier in the discussion that voting is what makes the changes in the government I dislike. I get that. But I have no faith or belief in the government, politicians, or anyone that makes the decisions from on high. And yet I still stated I wish they'd stop being fuck ups and to just run things better. But because everyone has a varying level of what's "better," that means my idea of what's better might not be that for everyone else, so vote for those we feel are "right." But I used some examples, real and exaggerated, that these decisions affect people's rights (Like the abortion ban) and that is abhorrent. And he agreed with the fact this stuff is abhorrent, but further reinforced that this is why you vote. But why the hell would I vote for a system that I have no reason to believe in? I never ended up asking him that question, but I wish I did.

I'm one person. My vote doesn't matter, and I'm sick of the "yes it does" argument. Of course if everyone thought that way then the things we believe in would never come to pass. But that's not how reality works. I'm not a major force of people. I'm not someone driving enough people to make a difference. I have no backing, I have no reach, and my political stances are so half baked you'd swear I got them out of fucking Applebee's. My vote isn't worth jack shit, and it will not change anything.

I can't help but wonder... Surely there's other ways to make my stance clear without having to vote, right? I can't imagine vocal outcry and protests are the only way to do it. That to this somewhat old guy, voting seems to be the only way my distaste towards things can have any merit or strength behind it, and that he "doesn't care to listen" to me just because I don't vote. I find that extremely arrogant, but that might be because I'm just pissed off. Can't even imagine how it's like for anyone outside of Canada, the world is huge and full of this crap.

I'm pissed off by this god awful political world that's so incredibly fucked in the head that even in my own province people keep dancing back and forth between major issues and keep wasting time, money and energy on bullshit we shouldn't even need to be worrying about. But of course, everyone who's rich has to keep getting richer, everyone's gotta push their own agenda, everyone's gotta twist and turn people in their favour, everyone's gotta fuck over everyone else so they stay ahead... while people like me get sat right in the thick of it, with a future that I have no sight on due to how murky the world, with barely any hope of getting to the level of comfort my parents ever reached.

Even though I know I have to work hard to achieve it, my life has been a fucking shit show of a mess lately and I know my limits, and my limits push me so far down that I can't envision myself ever reaching a point where I can say "I finally worked the system in my favour enough to be happy with this." That even when I feel like I'm getting a leg up I know the system is built around keeping me down as hard as possible. That my worth is absolutely nothing to anyone else above me, and that I'm an expendable piece to the machine that can crunch me apart to pieces and not even give a shit if I disappeared tomorrow. That the only part of my world I can ever feel like I matter in is the world directly around me, with family, friends, and the few that matter to me most. Take that away and there's nothing left.

Fuck the system. Fuck the world that's been twisted around us. Fuck the people that run all of it from behind the scenes. Fuck that even schooling barely means anything anymore, wrecked to the point I can put myself into insurmountable debt and come out of it with nothing. Fuck all the scummy people that ruin what should be a wonderful world for everyone down below.

Fuck all of it.

[End rant. Yes I feel a bit better]

 

[Drathnoxis]

You should vote. It's your civic duty, and many votes could have been turned by absent eligible voters.

 

[Abomination]

You should vote. It's your civic duty, and many votes could have been turned by absent eligible voters.

The trick is to convince only those who would vote the way you vote to move from absent voters to genuine voters.

They're right, their vote doesn't mean jack shit on an individual level.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

You should vote. It's your civic duty, and many votes could have been turned by absent eligible voters.

1. It's not mandatory here as far as I'm aware of. And if it ever is, I'm filling the "none of the above" box.
2. No. Lemme elaborate:

The trick is to convince only those who would vote the way you vote to move from absent voters to genuine voters.

They're right, their vote doesn't mean jack shit on an individual level.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

You should vote. It's your civic duty, and many votes could have been turned by absent eligible voters.

The trick is to convince only those who would vote the way you vote to move from absent voters to genuine voters.

They're right, their vote doesn't mean jack shit on an individual level.

Nothing has ever mattered on an individual level. We're all meaningless. That's why we form groups. One dude with a gun is annoying. 30,000 of them is an Army. One dude with a God complex is crazy. 100,000,000 people believing him is a religion. One boat is a boat. 500 of them is a Fleet.
One vote is less than a rounding error. But if every disillusioned voter actually voted, it'd swing everything. Last election 60% voted. That means 130,800,000 eligible votes were not cast. Trump won by less than 50,000 votes.

All this 'I'm too meaningless to vote' bs is just that, bs. I guess you're too meaningless to have an voice then. Have all the opinions you want, but unless you're willing to put a vote behind it, its just that, an opinion. A meaningless opinion.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

I can't help but wonder... Surely there's other ways to make my stance clear without having to vote, right?

Marches, protests, piqueting, terrorism... The thing is, if you(not only you) can't be arsed to go to the polls and throw in a blank card, why would you even bother with ways that take more effort?



And, look at it this way: a grain of sand means nothing, but a handful thrown into gears, can stop the machinery. I don't know if it's some old proverb that i just recalled, or something i came up with right now... Point being, if you wanna stay apolitical, that's your decision, but voting is the most basic, easiest way of political engagement one can have in a democracy.

 

[Saelune]

The real least you could do is stop being so critical of people who do actually want to fix the system.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Its hard to see the effect on the system but its there. Even voting for the losing side has an effect. People in politics look at demographics and voting data and decide what to do in response.

If they did something controversial and noticed a spike in voting against them say, they might ease off the edges of their next policy.

Plus they want you to not vote, they want only the most fanatical to vote so that they don't actually have to do anything to please them.

And plus its only a few hours out of your day so it can't hurt not to so just do it to try and make the world a little better. Even if it doesn't work at least you tried.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

The least you could do is stop being so critical of people who do actually want to fix the system.

If everyone else is eager to fight the system, and they believe they'll make a difference (And they very well might), more power to them.

All this 'I'm too special to vote' bs is just that, bs. I guess you're too special to have an voice then. Have all the opinions you want, but unless you're willing to put a vote behind it, its just that, an opinion. A meaningless opinion

See, that's a part of all of this that I firmly disagree with. The idea that an opinion holds no power as a "voice" unless a vote is put behind it. If I were to organize a protest, ended up with hundreds of people following the cause, and many people agree with me... does that suddenly invalidate itself if I, a few others, or all of those people, don't vote? If not, then why is that held in such low regard just because no vote goes behind it? If it's the whole "You don't back it up" thing, then see my response to MrCalavera below.

And, look at it this way: a grain of sand means nothing, but a handful thrown into gears, can stop the machinery. If you wanna stay apolitical, that's your decision, but voting is the most basic, easiest way of political engagement one can have in a democracy.

That's the thing though. I am not a handful. I don't believe anyone would listen to my limited political beliefs enough to actually take my side in any of this. Voting may be the most basic form of political engagement, but that's the problem. It's engaging with a system I have no faith in. Democracy, or any other form of system, in my opinion, does not have the answer to solving any level of community or people's problems. Not to mention the people who twist the system to their favour as well.

I have no faith my vote will go to someone who will benefit the world, or even just the community. And even if the person or party I voted for was all sunshine and rainbows, I have no faith that the system they have to uphold won't bury all of the good will the person/group I vote for has at all. Or that they won't just turn on the people that voted them in and make me regret my vote. Cause then my vote went to someone who proved my worries right.

What is someone like me to do when this is the world we live in, and this is the opinion that has come from it? Am I supposed to believe that simply casting a vote quells all of that? That I'm supposed to have some sort of faith or believe that my vote will go to the right person or people?

 

[Elvis Starburst]

Its hard to see the effect on the system but its there. Even voting for the losing side has an effect. People in politics look at demographics and voting data and decide what to do in response.

If they did something controversial and noticed a spike in voting against them say, they might ease off the edges of their next policy.

Plus they want you to not vote, they want only the most fanatical to vote so that they don't actually have to do anything to please them.

I don't disagree with this. But...

And plus its only a few hours out of your day so it can't hurt not to so just do it to try and make the world a little better. Even if it doesn't work at least you tried.

See my response to MrCalavera above, and you'll see why this is such a point of contention on my side

 

[Worgen]

Its fun to pretend voting doesn't matter. That we will have no impact. But the thing is, we can and its actually easier then you think, voting is just the least you can do to make your voice heard. If you want to have a much bigger impact, then contact your representative, like, a lot. Make sure they know your name and your stance on an issue. Pretty much each person who calls them or personally sends them a letter is representing themselves to be more then just one person. Because the thinking is that for each one person that contacts them, there are hundreds that don't.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Because you have two kinds of power in this Democracy, voting and assassination. You want a candidate who is pro-LGBTQ+XYZ rights? Either vote for one, or kill the anti-candidates.
We're humans. We have no power as individuals to do much of anything. And voting, at least as Americans, is one of few actual reoccurring powers we have.
Do you want Roy Moore in power? No, of course not, he's an accused child molester. Are you going to vote against him? No, why would I bother, all votes are meaningless. Then how does any politician have power? If votes are meaningless, and politicians are voted into power, then shouldn't that power be equally meaningless? After all no meaning went into it...

 

[Elvis Starburst]

Do you want Roy Moore in power? No, of course not, he's an accused child molester. Are you going to vote against him? No, why would I bother, all votes are meaningless. Then how does any politician have power? If votes are meaningless, and politicians are voted into power, then shouldn't that power be equally meaningless? After all no meaning went into it...

I never said all votes are meaningless, and that it's pointless to vote. I'm saying mine alone, on a personal and individual level, is. It's a power that I as a Canadian have, as does many other people from my country and several others. It is a power that I, however, don't find to be worth much (If anything) when applied to myself on an individual level. There's a big difference here. I'm not telling everyone else to not vote cause it's worthless, and if that's the message you're getting, then either I'm fucking up my wording, or there's some mis-communication on your part.

But as others have stated here, there's more to a vote than just a number slap on a metric. Worgen's example is a good one

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Do you want Roy Moore in power? No, of course not, he's an accused child molester. Are you going to vote against him? No, why would I bother, all votes are meaningless. Then how does any politician have power? If votes are meaningless, and politicians are voted into power, then shouldn't that power be equally meaningless? After all no meaning went into it...

I never said all votes are meaningless, and that it's pointless to vote. I'm saying mine alone, on a personal and individual level, is. It's a power that I as a Canadian have, as does many other people from my country and several others. It is a power that I, however, don't find to be worth much (If anything) when applied to myself on an individual level. There's a big difference here. I'm not telling everyone else to not vote cause it's worthless, and if that's the message you're getting, then either I'm fucking up my wording, or there's some mis-communication on your part.

But as others have stated here, there's more to a vote than just a number slap on a metric. Worgen's example is a good one

A vote is a vote is a vote is a vote is a vote. Its the same across the board, everyone gets one. Your singular vote is just as meaningless as mine. Yet you would never tell someone else to not vote, because "I never said all votes are meaningless, and that it's pointless to vote".

Then why would you tell yourself to not vote?

None of us have a real meaningful impact from out vote. Even Saelune, trans as she is, could just choose to never vote and move from New York to California and never have to worry again. Cali aint never gonna roll back trans rights, so just live peacefully there.
That's my point. We can all find reasons to not care anymore, but then the people who do care get more of a say, and those people generally suck horse balls. Why let some old wrinkled baby boomer fuck who still thinks the Beatles are radical have more of a say in trans rights, internet privacy and war than you?

to quote Dylan thomas, "Do not go gentle into that good night"

 

[Asita]

I got into a political discussion with a co-worker that I wasn't exactly planned for, so my points ended up being kinda crap and not well worded. But one thing I made extremely clear is that I do not vote for anyone at this point. And by the end, he said "You said it yourself you don't even vote, so I don't care to listen to your thoughts." and it kinda pissed me off.

It might piss you off, but it's little more than the logical conclusion of your own position. It's not even the extreme conclusion.

By choosing not to vote you are in effect keeping your political opinions to yourself, refusing to even let them be enumerated as a statistic for polls and politicians to reference. It sounds callous, but really, if you don't care enough to even voice them in a vote, why should anyone else feel obliged to take the time out of their day to listen to an opinion you're otherwise content to leave in your head? For that matter, why do you even care? By your own metric, their votes matter no more or less than yours, so it's not like you believe that them hearing or not hearing your views will have any qualitative impact.

When you devalue your own opinions as functionally worthless, you kinda lose the right to be offended when people agree with you and decide that they aren't worth hearing.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

A vote is a vote is a vote is a vote is a vote. Its the same across the board, everyone gets one. Your singular vote is just as meaningless as mine. Yet you would never tell someone else to not vote, because "I never said all votes are meaningless, and that it's pointless to vote".

Then why would you tell yourself to not vote?

None of us have a real meaningful impact from out vote. Even Saelune, trans as she is, could just choose to never vote and move from New York to California and never have to worry again. Cali aint never gonna roll back trans rights, so just live peacefully there.
That's my point. We can all find reasons to not care anymore, but then the people who do care get more of a say, and those people generally suck horse balls. Why let some old wrinkled baby boomer fuck who still thinks the Beatles are radical have more of a say in trans rights, internet privacy and war than you?

to quote Dylan thomas, "Do not go gentle into that good night"

Then I guess that's the big problem. I've probably just stopped caring on a personal and individual level. Stopped caring about this screwed up political and world climate. Stopped caring about how no matter how hard I try, no matter how much emotional investment I put forward, that none of it ever seems to come to fruition. And that even if I get invested, there's still gonna be thousands of other politicians, aspects of the system, and rich people that run everything, that are all determined to run everything I believe in into the ground. And that by disassociating with all of it, I can at least believe that I am still capable of making a difference, however small, in my own little world, rather than trying to change the world itself. At least that way I can feel like I matter.

The slowly building sense of what may be depression I've been having over the years probably isn't helping this. I care, but then I don't. I want things to change, but I don't believe I have the ability to make it happen. It's a whirlwind of crap

 

[Elvis Starburst]

It might piss you off, but it's little more than the logical conclusion of your own position. It's not even the extreme conclusion.

By choosing not to vote you are in effect keeping your political opinions to yourself, refusing to even let them be enumerated as a statistic for polls and politicians to reference. It sounds callous, but really, if you don't care enough to even voice them in a vote, why should anyone else feel obliged to take the time out of their day to listen to an opinion you're otherwise content to leave in your head? For that matter, why do you even care? By your own metric, their votes matter no more or less than yours, so it's not like you believe that them hearing or not hearing your views will have any qualitative impact.

When you devalue your own opinions as functionally worthless, you kinda lose the right to be offended when people agree with you and decide that they aren't worth hearing.

That actually made me smile.

I kinda get his side when you put it that way. It's not that I don't want to see change happen in general, I have opinions and I want things to be better for others. But it's hard to have any follow up when everything is such a mess. It makes me not care about a lot of it. The way for change to happen is a method that I don't have faith will change anything. So it's agitating when my opinions are suddenly invalidated to people just because I don't choose to act in a system that I do not feel content using (For many reasons as stated in my previous comments). The whole "You don't choose to act in our system? Then your words are meaningless, fuck off" vibe it gives rubs me entirely the wrong way

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

That's the thing though. I am not a handful. I don't believe anyone would listen to my limited political beliefs enough to actually take my side in any of this. Voting may be the most basic form of political engagement, but that's the problem. It's engaging with a system I have no faith in. Democracy, or any other form of system, in my opinion, does not have the answer to solving any level of community or people's problems. Not to mention the people who twist the system to their favour as well.

Well, then you have no problem. If no system is good enough for you, then the answer is to stay apolitical and brace yourself for whatever other people decide will come.

I have no faith my vote will go to someone who will benefit the world, or even just the community. And even if the person or party I voted for was all sunshine and rainbows, I have no faith that the system they have to uphold won't bury all of the good will the person/group I vote for has at all. Or that they won't just turn on the people that voted them in and make me regret my vote. Cause then my vote went to someone who proved my worries right.

Me neither.
I don't hold too high hopes and expectations for the political class(which, i admit, might be a problem).
My approach, from the lack of better word, is a bit "clientelistic": A politician, by default, should be the employee of the people. An enactor of their will, not their idol, not a hero, not even a friend. And the people, in democracy, have the chance to periodically review politicians, and "fire" them. Of course some politicians, rarely, may through their actions earn those epithets i mentioned before. In my book, that is usually verified by hindsight, though, after one's career has ended.

What is someone like me to do when this is the world we live in, and this is the opinion that has come from it? Am I supposed to believe that simply casting a vote quells all of that? That I'm supposed to have some sort of faith or believe that my vote will go to the right person or people?

Personal beliefs mean jack shit in politics, unless they're held by a big enough group. It's the act that matters.

My approach looks a bit like this:
Going to a polling station and casting a vote to a ballot costs me about 10 minutes of my time each 4/5 years. Obviously YMMV depending on where you live.
If you're right, and your vote never matters, then so doesn't whether you stay at home, or go vote. No difference here.
If you're wrong though, and it's one of the few hundred/thousands that did matter, then you flushed the chance for a change down the drain - isn't that embarassing? Wouldn't that haunt you for the rest of your days?... okay, ignore the part after the dash, that's how my angsty, neurotic brain exxagerates things. But it works for me.

Side note: elections are also the most important polls - A fringe party might not make a direct impact, but it will serve as a barometer for politicians that would otherwise like to stay in a comfort zone.
Low turnout, from my experience, doesn't really work that way.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

First of all, causing conflicts at work is also why I I try to refrain from discussing such things at work because it can affect your work environment and rapport among those you have to work with daily and it is simply not worth the hassle involved. If something pertains to helping or hindering a person I might bring it up in an attempt to assist them, but outside of that I give more of a grin and nod regardless of if I agree or not, or simply change the subject or excuse myself from the discussion if it is that unbearable. How this impacts your work and living environment and my bedside manner score in my case is why I choose to discuss these things on forums rather than with people I have to deal with daily.

I, like others, also think you should vote, but I also understand circumstances of different electoral systems may also deter or devalue one's vote making it often seem like a futile effort. In the US, the winner takes all electoral college system makes it much more difficult for the individual to make a difference and that in combination with the extreme gerrymandering that takes place can really make it difficult for one to see the point of bothering when often ones vote does not matter when one's state is not a swing state or you are vastly outnumbered in your district. The only way to change that currently though is voting so that they can use the data to hopefully one day make the changes needed to correct that, until then we have to keep at least trying or it will only get worse.

I also understand how alienating it can feel when the only people you have to pick from as candidates all seem terrible. I honestly feel at times I could walk down just about any street and find better people for the job than what we have to choose from as candidates and it can be really disheartening. It sometimes feels like they actively look for the worst possible person for the job rather than someone we should all entrust our lives and futures to, and in the case of my state, Texas, they not only look for idiots but criminal idiots and tbh people should be afraid of them making decisions for them and their families as their intentions are often extremely malignant. Often times we have people who are only looking to increase their self interests and line their own pockets running for offices they should never hold rather than people genuinely trying to make the world a better place and it can be difficult at times to tell the difference between those that want to sell the people out and those who are genuinely trying to make a difference. I still have hope though there are people out there who do want to help, we just need many more of them and need to find and implement better means to hold accountable prevent and remove those who don't or are unfit for the job. Not voting at all though does not help change it, it only just enables it to continue to be screwed because voting is the only option we have to change it outside of war and war is never a good option, it is an act of desperation once people gave given up on voting all together.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

fucking Applebee's

Well, for what it's worth, eleven years ago I made a bet with one of my best friends that if Obama carried our home state of Indiana, I'd kiss his bare, black ass in the parking lot of none other than a fucking Applebee's. That was the peak of my college liberal/SJW years, and I was so convinced of Indiana's backward, racist, dumpster fire politics, polling results be damned, there was no way, no how, the state would ever swing for a black man. Despite that, I was an avid Obama supporter, spent some time campaigning, and voted for him anyways.

Some times, things work out in ways you don't expect.