[Politics] Political Questions and a Massive Angry Rant

[Elvis Starburst]

First of all, causing conflicts at work is also why I I try to refrain from discussing such things at work because it can affect your work environment and rapport among those you have to work with daily and it is simply not worth the hassle involved. If something pertains to helping or hindering a person I might bring it up in an attempt to assist them, but outside of that I give more of a grin and nod regardless of if I agree or not, or simply change the subject or excuse myself from the discussion if it is that unbearable. How this impacts your work and living environment and my bedside manner score in my case is why I choose to discuss these things on forums rather than with people I have to deal with daily.

Yeah, lesson learned I guess. I dunno why I even got into it, I usually refrain from bothering with political arguments. Thankfully I don't have to interact with the guy I was talking to much, but there were a few people around that overheard and I'm more worried about their opinions than this one old dude. I'm more pissed off at myself for even getting into the whole thing to begin with, and any opinion that comes with it from others.

Well, for what it's worth, eleven years ago I made a bet with one of my best friends that if Obama carried our home state of Indiana, I'd kiss his bare, black ass in the parking lot of none other than a fucking Applebee's.

Well? Did you do it?

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Well? Did you do it?

Well, yeah.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

Well, yeah.

Props for the follow through!

 

[Nedoras]

I understand that mindset, but at the same time it's that particular way of thinking that is holding back any kind of legitimate change from happening. I don't just mean "why should I vote?" either, but the whole defeatist attitude towards politics and political change in general. There was a poll put out not too long ago about how optimistic Democratic voters were for who they were supporting. At the moment, Biden is still the frontrunner. However despite having so much support, the optimism among his supporters was incredibly low. They don't want to vote for him, but they feel like they have to. After all, they're told so all the fucking time. That we all have to be "realistic". That change can't happen, not now at least. To wait for tomorrow. Only tomorrow never comes does it? The sun never sets. It just stays there and slowly burns us all to death.

The system and so many people that are in it want to beat the living shit out of your optimism. And it works. So many people settle for shit candidates because they can't imagine someone else winning. Because it's just carved into their minds at every opportunity. It wears people down, and they stop caring if they ever even did at all. It works to the benefit of the worst fucking people too. Combine that apathy with voter suppression and low information voters who vote on a fucking whim, and we are where we are today.

Like I said, I understand your mindset. However you're not just one vote. Understand when you say "I'm just one person, I don't fucking matter", that is being echoed by untold millions. You're not alone, there's so many like you all thinking the exact same thing. And understand that the system you hate so much, that honestly the vast majority of us hate, WANTS you to think that way. It wants millions of people to just let them have it, to not think about it, to not care. You can choose not to vote, choose not to protest, choose not to support strikes, choose not to support community efforts for change, etc. But understand that you're feeding the very thing you despise as you do so.

I do get it though, I can't stress that enough. I don't blame you for feeling how you feel. Everything is set up to make you feel that way, to make nearly everyone feel that way. Hell I feel that way at times, that it's all for nothing and hopeless. But if we don't do something, anything, we're all fucked. We're honestly running out of time. I get that the things I do, and how I get involved is incredibly small scale. But there's a whole lot of people out there doing the same thing, and it adds up. Actions that seem very small and trivial, can spark inspiration in others to do the same. Numbers grow, movements form. Change can happen. Sure we can't do it alone, but we're not alone and never have been.

 

[Agema]

My vote isn't worth jack shit, and it will not change anything.

Ultimately, I think that's what a fair number of people (mostly the economic elites) want members of the general public to believe, because apathy in people likely to disagree with them increases the likelihood they get what they want done.

 

[Kwak]

The only possible real solution is to become independently wealthy then travel the world as a vigilante assassin/serial killer taking out strategic targets. That's my dream.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

That's the thing though. I am not a handful. I don't believe anyone would listen to my limited political beliefs enough to actually take my side in any of this. Voting may be the most basic form of political engagement, but that's the problem. It's engaging with a system I have no faith in. Democracy, or any other form of system, in my opinion, does not have the answer to solving any level of community or people's problems. Not to mention the people who twist the system to their favour as well.

But let me ask you this, if a problem has been solved by the government before you were even born, would you notice it? Because for the most part, governments get a bad rep but they are mostly sucessful. Without them we'd be in an anarchy where nobody puts out fires, schools and roads don't exist and we'd be literally be stabbing each other with spears and shooting bows to defend ourselves and our caves.

The problems left are often very difficult or complicated ones that maybe nobody will solve, but we can mitigate and manage.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

I can tell you this. Until the U.S. election of 2016 I felt and did the same as you. My vote didn't matter, I was one of millions, all the candidates are garbage, I never even bothered to learn enough to make and informed decision so didn't it make more sense not to bother?

But I did vote in 2016, because at that point I realized it mattered too much to sit at home and do nothing. The stakes were too high, and really, they always have been too high to do nothing and I just didn't notice because I'm a middle class white guy. Of course I lost, my vote didn't individually matter because the racist clown who got fewer votes won anyway. But I've voted in every election since then and will continue to, even if there are no good options and I understand that my one vote doesn't change a thing.

I think it's because I've decided to do more to live my personal truth. It's like, how much do I really believe in what I say I believe in if I can't be troubled to go out and put my name on it? For me, it's a matter of personal honesty with myself. I know it's a broken system and I can't fix it, but... Like, if I can change my stance from "can't be bothered" to "have to make the effort," then anyone can make that change and if enough people do then it really will matter.

I still completely understand where you are coming from, and it's a place I need to assiduously resist falling back into. But I recommend trying it once. Even a jaded and angry cynic like me feels better after doing something to make myself heard, even if I'm the only one who really hears it.

 

[Seanchaidh]

You're right to be cynical, the system is dogshit. Real political change will require more than just voting. That is why we must put in the effort to change it. But it will probably require voting too, at least eventually. If you don't have a candidate you like, by all means don't vote. If you do, then do. Just remember that the choices we're given to vote on are a result of a complex process that isn't all that democratic, so if you want your voice heard you may have to do more.

Note: I'm definitely NOT saying to give up on making your voice heard.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, I get that. My vote isn't worth much either. But then, no votes are worth much, and yet the number of votes decide elections (at least in theory).

Mind you, I live in a country where voting (or rather getting your name marked off and getting ballot papers) is compulsory.

 

[Silvanus]

I kinda get his side when you put it that way. It's not that I don't want to see change happen in general, I have opinions and I want things to be better for others. But it's hard to have any follow up when everything is such a mess.

Everything is in such a mess in part because of people failing or refusing to vote. It has directly resulted in less representative government and less responsive politicians.

In truth, those who do not vote will still be counted and tallied up, but their decision will be interpreted as apathy. If you care about these issues, your decision to stay home will be taken as evidence that you don't care.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

However you're not just one vote. Understand when you say "I'm just one person, I don't fucking matter", that is being echoed by untold millions. You're not alone, there's so many like you all thinking the exact same thing.

But there's a whole lot of people out there doing the same thing, and it adds up. Actions that seem very small and trivial, can spark inspiration in others to do the same. Numbers grow, movements form. Change can happen. Sure we can't do it alone, but we're not alone and never have been.

I don't disagree with you, I get your point here as well. But it still falls under the problem of "I'm not the millions who feel this way, I'm just one person" and it becomes hard to push forward. In fact, it ends up making things feel worse. Cause even if I got motivated, did everything in my power to make my vote count... there's still a sea of millions who won't vote. And instead of my vote being lost to the politicians, it's also lost to them as well. I know there's nothing I can do about that, but it doesn't help the defeatist mindset that plagues me with this topic. Just gotta do what I can though, right?

You're right to be cynical, the system is dogshit. Real political change will require more than just voting. That is why we must put in the effort to change it.

I think that's what I believe in, true political change. When you've got systems like in the states that twist the votes, and people winning even when they lost through votes, it makes me believe there's change that can be made elsewhere without these means. Cause if an election is gonna just be "I lost the votes, but I win anyways" then changes need to be made in a different way.

But let me ask you this, if a problem has been solved by the government before you were even born, would you notice it? Because for the most part, governments get a bad rep but they are mostly sucessful. Without them we'd be in an anarchy where nobody puts out fires, schools and roads don't exist and we'd be literally be stabbing each other with spears and shooting bows to defend ourselves and our caves.

The problems left are often very difficult or complicated ones that maybe nobody will solve, but we can mitigate and manage.

I mean... fair enough. It probably doesn't help that the media likes to make everything sound worse than it is. It's also why I avoid the news, cause it's filled with so much horrible shit that if I were to pay attention to it, I know I'd become well and truly depressed. Life's hard enough, ya know? Taking on the world's burdens in my mind would bring me to the ground, and I need to do what I can to keep myself afloat. At least until I can keep my own self up without a struggle

 

[Bedinsis]

The way I see it is that my vote might only be a drop in the ocean, but the ocean consists of nothing but drops.

 

[Pseudonym]

He made a point earlier in the discussion that voting is what makes the changes in the government I dislike. I get that. But I have no faith or belief in the government, politicians, or anyone that makes the decisions from on high.

You got no faith in what? That any of them will be able to do any better (or less bad, if you prefer) at all than any other. That's just nonsense. That they'll do a good enough job for your standards? That doesn't matter. You pick things that are better, not things that are perfect.

And yet I still stated I wish they'd stop being fuck ups and to just run things better. But because everyone has a varying level of what's "better," that means my idea of what's better might not be that for everyone else, so vote for those we feel are "right." But I used some examples, real and exaggerated, that these decisions affect people's rights (Like the abortion ban) and that is abhorrent. And he agreed with the fact this stuff is abhorrent, but further reinforced that this is why you vote. But why the hell would I vote for a system that I have no reason to believe in? I never ended up asking him that question, but I wish I did.

So again, this is a bit ambiguous. You don't vote for the system as is, you vote within it. It's not a general vote of confidence it's a vote for this one group/person over the other options. If you mean, 'why would you vote for any system', again, some things are better than others.

I'm one person. My vote doesn't matter, and I'm sick of the "yes it does" argument. Of course if everyone thought that way then the things we believe in would never come to pass. But that's not how reality works. I'm not a major force of people. I'm not someone driving enough people to make a difference. I have no backing, I have no reach, and my political stances are so half baked you'd swear I got them out of fucking Applebee's. My vote isn't worth jack shit, and it will not change anything.

Its also not very hard at all, to take half an hour once every couple of years to vote. This is one of the core problems with your idea: what would be lost if you voted?

I can't help but wonder... Surely there's other ways to make my stance clear without having to vote, right? I can't imagine vocal outcry and protests are the only way to do it.

There are, but not without any effort whatsoever. And considering that you can't be bothered to vote, and only get angry in an entirely ineffective way, you won't spend the effort to do any of the more complicated things. If I'm wrong about that, there is a range of political and semi-political organisations of all kinds to join that do all kinds of activism.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

In truth, those who do not vote will still be counted and tallied up, but their decision will be interpreted as apathy. If you care about these issues, your decision to stay home will be taken as evidence that you don't care.

That's why I believe in the protest vote as the single most powerful statement one can make in a FPTP/SMDP system. Or any combination of representational model/voting system, really. I'm not saying you should start writing in Darth Vader or Cthulhu. But on the other hand, half the cast of Predator have been governors, and not completely terrible ones at that. You don't get there by playing it safe with your ballot.

 

[the December King]

I am a voter in a "have-not" province that has lots of rum, so here's my take:

Invent a functional cold fusion model that works within low-class financial parameters*.

Then,

KEEP THAT SHIT TO YOURSELF.

Then sell off some, lesser, "mildly effective but easily controlled and hard to improve" formula- slash- model to the rich (which gets made mandate, and forced on the plebs like me by the clearly obvious 'system').

That's the only way I can see having any effect at all. On anything. You have to become "Little Fusion".

Otherwise, you are an ant. Like the rest of us. And, you have no viable say nor opinion over rich people, who can buy tons of ants.

Or crush them, whatever - money is money.



*call it what you like, but it's magical science either way.

NOTE: ... sigh...I'm drunk.

 

[Abomination]

Its also not very hard at all, to take half an hour once every couple of years to vote. This is one of the core problems with your idea: what would be lost if you voted?

Half an hour. Do you know a way to replace lost time?

 

[Pseudonym]

Its also not very hard at all, to take half an hour once every couple of years to vote. This is one of the core problems with your idea: what would be lost if you voted?

Half an hour. Do you know a way to replace lost time?

Edit: Oh, wait, that's what you meant. Different answer then. Lets be real, everyone here has time to hang out on dying forums, play video games and likely do even more uninteresting stuff. Half an hour is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Agema]

Its also not very hard at all, to take half an hour once every couple of years to vote. This is one of the core problems with your idea: what would be lost if you voted?

Half an hour. Do you know a way to replace lost time?

Ooh, unlucky. My polling station is under 100m down the road from my house. Go there at a quiet time, it's under 5 mins there, vote and back.

Of course, for the time thrifty, there's also postal voting.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I suspect much of the frustration with politics comes down to hypocrisy and the seeming inability to get the people who engage in it out of the way. For example:

[tweet t="https://twitter.com/MuseWendi/status/1143215023277445121"]
[tweet t="https://twitter.com/MuseWendi/status/1143215593765703680"]

Now, Hillary Clinton is no longer there (knock on wood), but the political legacy she was part of remains, while distressed, still quite strong. Much stronger than it ought to be if this were a democratic society.

Its also not very hard at all, to take half an hour once every couple of years to vote. This is one of the core problems with your idea: what would be lost if you voted?

Half an hour. Do you know a way to replace lost time?

Ooh, unlucky. My polling station is under 100m down the road from my house. Go there at a quiet time, it's under 5 mins there, vote and back.

Of course, for the time thrifty, there's also postal voting.

In the United States, polling stations in less affluent communities will sometimes turn people away after they had waited hours because polls are closing now, sorry. The time lost is variable. And it matters who and where you are.