[politics] Sharpie Man - How does it feel to be an American under an insecure president?

[Hawki]

Which will probably be in a few years from now.

As much as that idiot loves to blather on about deserving a 3rd term(and we haven't even reached the election for a possible 2nd one yet), I doubt he'd live long enough to serve one out if somehow he did get one. He's probably a decade out from a stroke or fatal heart attack, based on how unhealthy his lifestyle is and his age. I wouldn't be surprised if the man hasn't already had a stroke and kept it out of the news.

And when that day comes when the fucker kicks off, I'll only say "Good".

While I'm not one for wishing for the death of a human being, serious question - is Pence any better? Probably more intelligent, sure, but since the GOP seems intent on letting the world burn for that sweet, sweet oil, I'm left to wonder...

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, if someone's response to someone calling them racist is to prove them right, I'm guessing they were pretty racist to begin with.

Will we survive this? I kinda feel like he has knocked the US into a decline with we wont really be able to come back from.

You won't. Vote your best PotUS ever in next election, and the rest of the world won't trust you, because you could vote in another Trump the election after that. The US's international standing is shot, fixing the education system later doesn't mean it isn't failing the people going through it now, not to mention massive long term infrastructure and environmental problems.

OTOH, the US will survive, just not in the position of power it had.

 

[Worgen]

Yeah, if someone's response to someone calling them racist is to prove them right, I'm guessing they were pretty racist to begin with.

Will we survive this? I kinda feel like he has knocked the US into a decline with we wont really be able to come back from.

You won't. Vote your best PotUS ever in next election, and the rest of the world won't trust you, because you could vote in another Trump the election after that. The US's international standing is shot, fixing the education system later doesn't mean it isn't failing the people going through it now, not to mention massive long term infrastructure and environmental problems.

OTOH, the US will survive, just not in the position of power it had.

Yeah, that's generally my thoughts as well. I think its possible for the US to come back but we would need to do it for the next several potus and considering that we tend to get dumb and vote in a republican after we have a democrat for 8 years... probably fucked. But, 2020 will really determine how quickly we are fucked.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

For all Americans on this board, how does it feel to have a guy this insecure as a president?

Basically Teddy Roosevelt's entire persona was constructed based upon the fact he was asthmatic and effete as a kid, and sought to overcompensate for that early shame and bullying.

Kennedy spent his entire presidency in a drugged-up oversexed haze, and this combined with his desire to not come off as taking marching orders from the Pope, or being soft on communism, is why and how we got Vietnam.

LBJ would literally walk around the West Wing with his schlong out, publicly urinate on Capitol Hill, and literally had a shower faucet installed specifically for his penis.

It's certainly up for debate when Reagan definitively started showing symptoms of Alzheimer's and he was diagnosed with it in '94, but his mental decline between his two terms is quite evident, as are tales of White House staffers having to coach the man and covering for his mental problems.

The Bush family's proclivity for jumping into fiscal bed with the most evil people on the planet, up to and including Nazis, deserves a post of its own and won't be further discussed here.

That's just off the top of my head, and in the last century and some change. The US has had moron, douchebag, and jackass presidents in the past, and it almost certainly will continue to have them in the future. This isn't a "Trump" problem, it's a corporate media problem of which Trump is but a symptom.

Corporate media is biased towards profits, that means ad revenue, and that means ratings. Corporate media isn't designed and operated to deliver information you need to you; it's designed to deliver you to advertisers. This is why, consistently across every level of media, news is dominated by dumb, hyperbolic, and attention-gathering shit; that's why if it bleeds, it leads, why poverty porn dominates alongside bombastic and ignorant punditry.

Trump, himself being a reality TV star, is where Nancy Grace and Honey Boo-Boo meet. He's a ratings phenomenon and that means record profits for corporate media, he definitely knows not to bite the hand that feeds him, and thus has delivered corporate media policy gains unseen since the '96 telecoms act. All he has to do is tweet once and corporate media gets days' (and millions') worth of content, none of which actually matters, given more often than not when the media is covering a Trump tweet some other policy act of dire import goes by unreported.

Here are some numbers to illustrate this phenomenon. When you account for earned media, 2016 was a $10-11 billion election. Depending upon source, $5-6 billion of that was earned media for Trump, an amount alone that exceeds the cost of every election before it even accounting for inflation; for comparison, Hillary's earned media was approximately $3.4 billion. That's what the media made covering Trump, and eliminating earned media from the equation actually makes 2016 cheaper than the previous two elections, which were the most two costly elections to date.

Meanwhile, in 2016 six corporations controlled over 90% of media consumed by Americans -- AT&T, TimeWarner, Disney, 21st Century Fox (AKA NewsCorp), Comcast, and National Amusements which holds plurality interest in both CBS and Viacom. Since Trump, that number is down to four -- AT&T acquired TimeWarner, and NewsCorp isn't even on the map since divesting Fox Entertainment Group to Disney -- and while the CBS/Viacom merger won't change the landscape, it will further cement National Amusements' hold over that wing.

That half of those corporations are also telecoms, a situation that hasn't been seen since the days of titanic Western Union influence over the media landscape and the birth of Ma Bell, when one of those corporations is literally Ma Bell reborn, damn well should be of immediate, existential alarm. Yet here we are. Just, never mind that in 1876 Western Union and the AP fraudulently interfered in the presidential election out of naked economic and political self-interest, and the outcome of that election brought us both a century of Jim Crow and the Gilded Age. Yet here we are.

Which corporations were the chief beneficiaries of those Trump tax cuts again?

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

You won't. Vote your best PotUS ever in next election, and the rest of the world won't trust you, because you could vote in another Trump the election after that. The US's international standing is shot, fixing the education system later doesn't mean it isn't failing the people going through it now, not to mention massive long term infrastructure and environmental problems.

OTOH, the US will survive, just not in the position of power it had.

Even though I won't be an American (hopefully) at that time, I sort of disagree. While he's nowhere the level of Trump, W. marred us horribly. I was studying in McGill at that time and I was afraid of saying I was American because Bush. Was. HATED. We all fell down to his level.

Then Obama came. And we were the golden children again.

At this point, I think we need to measure the amount of Obamas we will need to get in the good graces of the World.

I think we need... Three Obamas in a row and maybe even an alternative fuel source.

 

[CheetoDust_v1legacy]

You won't. Vote your best PotUS ever in next election, and the rest of the world won't trust you, because you could vote in another Trump the election after that. The US's international standing is shot, fixing the education system later doesn't mean it isn't failing the people going through it now, not to mention massive long term infrastructure and environmental problems.

OTOH, the US will survive, just not in the position of power it had.

Even though I won't be an American (hopefully) at that time, I sort of disagree. While he's nowhere the level of Trump, W. marred us horribly. I was studying in McGill at that time and I was afraid of saying I was American because Bush. Was. HATED. We all fell down to his level.

Then Obama came. And we were the golden children again.

At this point, I think we need to measure the amount of Obamas we will need to get in the good graces of the World.

I think we need... Three Obamas in a row and maybe even an alternative fuel source.

So another 24 years of drone strikes, corporate welfare, neo-liberalism but great PR. Honestly the fact that Obama is the best that America can manage and are praised for it is a sign that we should just try and sink it to the bottom of the ocean and hope Canada will be fine.

 

[Saelune]

You won't. Vote your best PotUS ever in next election, and the rest of the world won't trust you, because you could vote in another Trump the election after that. The US's international standing is shot, fixing the education system later doesn't mean it isn't failing the people going through it now, not to mention massive long term infrastructure and environmental problems.

OTOH, the US will survive, just not in the position of power it had.

Even though I won't be an American (hopefully) at that time, I sort of disagree. While he's nowhere the level of Trump, W. marred us horribly. I was studying in McGill at that time and I was afraid of saying I was American because Bush. Was. HATED. We all fell down to his level.

Then Obama came. And we were the golden children again.

At this point, I think we need to measure the amount of Obamas we will need to get in the good graces of the World.

I think we need... Three Obamas in a row and maybe even an alternative fuel source.

So another 24 years of drone strikes, corporate welfare, neo-liberalism but great PR. Honestly the fact that Obama is the best that America can manage and are praised for it is a sign that we should just try and sink it to the bottom of the ocean and hope Canada will be fine.

Anyone who thinks Bernie is going to end Drone Strikes is na?ve.

Obama was the best President we have had atleast since Lincoln. His imperfections were a mix of good intentions (trying to compromise with Republicans who literally condemn everything Obama ever did, even when he did things they themselves came up with) and things that by merely being President of the US will happen (such as being neck deep in military conflicts around the world). Obama's sins were believing in unity and being President after Bush.

The rest of the world sucks too.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

So another 24 years of drone strikes, corporate welfare, neo-liberalism but great PR. Honestly the fact that Obama is the best that America can manage and are praised for it is a sign that we should just try and sink it to the bottom of the ocean and hope Canada will be fine.

Anyone who thinks Bernie is going to end Drone Strikes is na?ve.

Obama was the best President we have had atleast since Lincoln. His imperfections were a mix of good intentions (trying to compromise with Republicans who literally condemn everything Obama ever did, even when he did things they themselves came up with) and things that by merely being President of the US will happen (such as being neck deep in military conflicts around the world). Obama's sins were believing in unity and being President after Bush.

The rest of the world sucks too.

A complete shocker, I know, but I'm with Saelune with this.

The idea of Drone Strikes does scare me. But not as much as bombing a village in hopes to get to a few malefactors [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/intensifies-bombing-syria-trump-announced-withdrawal-190103083014951.html]. Most of the world had to bail out banks and corporations [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/4285063/Bail-out-Britains-banks-A-timeline.html] after the recession... although the UK tends to pick and choose what companies it does want to bail out. Seemingly those with financial ties to the government does get more preferential treatment, while others like British Steel Limited [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/24/british-steel-scandal-private-equity-unchecked] are allowed to hemorrhage and die while the government cites its own laisse-faire mandates.

And giving the same voice and chances to all Americans and Human beings versus the societal accepted ones is never a bad thing, no matter how people want to paint it.

He also did his part to help save the Auto Industry [https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/sep/06/did-obama-save-us-automobile-industry/], penned DACA, Did his part to get Homeless Veterans off the streets [https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/News/Article/Article/881729/veteran-homelessness-drops-nearly-50-percent-since-2010/] via HUD rental assistance, His renewable energy drive that made solar and wind [https://environmentamerica.org/blogs/environment-america-blog/ame/president-obama%E2%80%99s-renewable-energy-legacy] a viable up and comer in the industry creating a lot of jobs in its wake, ACA, sighend Dodd-Frank [https://www.thebalance.com/dodd-frank-wall-street-reform-act-3305688] to monitor corporations and banks in efforts to prevent another recession, and so on.

Personal distaste does not take away from a Man's accomplishments, even if we want to focus on the negative. I will always give Trump his proper due when it comes. He wants to ban Vaping after 6 deaths and unexplained disease that is affecting hundreds. My personal feelings for the man aside, that is a great move for something we know nothing about. Will it be enough to put against the rest of this presidency? Probably not. But I acknowledge the steps he takes.

Long story short, I'll never tell someone not to dislike another person. But I'll ask for fairness. Hate Obama for Obama. But do not act like he didn't do good things for the nation and the world while he was in office. Did he cure a different form of Cancer with every sneeze he made? No. Did he do things that pissed me off? SOPA with the attmepts to revive it after it was killed, not to mention his reaction to Sandy Hook for one (although with time passing, I get the Sandy Hook thing more). We don't have a utopia anywhere, so we don't have a perfect leader. But Obama did a job that made me proud to be an American for the first time in a long, long time.

 

[davidmc1158_v1legacy]

Kennedy spent his entire presidency in a drugged-up oversexed haze, and this combined with his desire to not come off as taking marching orders from the Pope, or being soft on communism, is why and how we got Vietnam.

Point of contention, but Kennedy is not how and why we got into Vietnam. Our involvement there started back in 1918 when Wilson backed off from his idealistic 14 points when it came to southeast Asia and ran away (somewhat literally) from meeting with Ho Chi Mihn during the peace talks after the Great War because he wanted/needed French support for the League of Nations. Follow that up with American support of French imperialism in the region up until after the second World War when we thought we really needed French support for the United Nations and post-war politics in Europe. Follow that up with Truman starting up military and financial aid to the French in the area because of the growing fear/paranoia regarding communist expansion. That aid was increased during the Eisenhower years.

Kennedy continued the cycle and Johnson was the one who jumped in with both feet fully militarily. Kennedy was not the how or why and claiming he was ignores 50 years of history.

End of digression. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[Agema]

That's just off the top of my head, and in the last century and some change. The US has had moron, douchebag, and jackass presidents in the past, and it almost certainly will continue to have them in the future. This isn't a "Trump" problem, it's a corporate media problem of which Trump is but a symptom.

Not that I particularly disagree numerous presidents had behavioural quirks and illnesses, but at least virtually all those guys also had some recognisable competence and sense of professionalism. If you take the job seriously and get reasonable things done, wandering around your home with your dick out is pretty small beans.

It's often the small things that I find indicative. Like that video of him about the US-China trade deal where it rapidly becomes clear he's no idea what's going on, what the technical terminology of diplomacy over such a treaty is, etc. And you know that's what he's like in every which way: a clueless man-baby who covers for the inevitable errors his ignorance and laziness causes through petty abuse of power.

Modern political systems are designed in large part to protect nations from being ruled by cretins, unlike the old days of absolute monarchs who could throw the nation into disaster at ill-considered whim. Thankfully, the institutional processes of the US government appear robust enough to stop Trump tipping the country into abject chaos - but really, that this institutional function WAD doesn't mean it's okay electing plainly unfit leader to test it.

 

[Seanchaidh]

You won't. Vote your best PotUS ever in next election, and the rest of the world won't trust you, because you could vote in another Trump the election after that. The US's international standing is shot, fixing the education system later doesn't mean it isn't failing the people going through it now, not to mention massive long term infrastructure and environmental problems.

OTOH, the US will survive, just not in the position of power it had.

Even though I won't be an American (hopefully) at that time, I sort of disagree. While he's nowhere the level of Trump, W. marred us horribly. I was studying in McGill at that time and I was afraid of saying I was American because Bush. Was. HATED. We all fell down to his level.

Then Obama came. And we were the golden children again.

At this point, I think we need to measure the amount of Obamas we will need to get in the good graces of the World.

I think we need... Three Obamas in a row and maybe even an alternative fuel source.

So another 24 years of drone strikes, corporate welfare, neo-liberalism but great PR. Honestly the fact that Obama is the best that America can manage and are praised for it is a sign that we should just try and sink it to the bottom of the ocean and hope Canada will be fine.

Anyone who thinks Bernie is going to end Drone Strikes is na?ve.

Obama was the best President we have had atleast since Lincoln. His imperfections were a mix of good intentions (trying to compromise with Republicans who literally condemn everything Obama ever did, even when he did things they themselves came up with) and things that by merely being President of the US will happen (such as being neck deep in military conflicts around the world). Obama's sins were believing in unity and being President after Bush.

And allying with Wall Street, and the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries (among others). Which is the actual reason he "tried to compromise with Republicans" who literally condemned everything he ever did. You're right that it's remarkable that he would continue to try to work with them despite their making it abundantly clear that they would not reciprocate. One would very easily come to the conclusion that he would have to be stupid. But he's not stupid. He's rich now.

You can look at the emails that clearly lay out that he was having his cabinet selected by the wealthy interests who financed his campaign. You can see that he disbanded his grassroots army that helped him win in 2008: demobilized it because an energized grassroots would push for actually significant change, which is exactly what the money did not want. You can see his choices to ramp up drone strikes, to deport millions of people, to protect the banks from their own bad decisions but fuck those who were underwater on their mortgages.

You think he was the best since Lincoln? He couldn't even rise to the economic occasion like FDR.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

End of digression. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Believe me, as someone who recently chewed out a friend on Facebook for cherry-picking historic events and causality by having a nice "thank Robespierre for Hitler" rant, I know full well historical events are interconnected. But on the other hand, this really isn't a point to have that conversation; '61-63 was an important crossroad in that conflict, and Kennedy's inaction opened the door for the Johnson admin to deploy combat troops after the former's assassination.

...pretty small beans.

Not according to the pressers and staffers who spoke openly about it after Johnson's death.

...a clueless man-baby who covers for the inevitable errors his ignorance and laziness causes through petty abuse of power.

You...have a very different opinion of Trump's competence than I do.

 

[Saelune]

You won't. Vote your best PotUS ever in next election, and the rest of the world won't trust you, because you could vote in another Trump the election after that. The US's international standing is shot, fixing the education system later doesn't mean it isn't failing the people going through it now, not to mention massive long term infrastructure and environmental problems.

OTOH, the US will survive, just not in the position of power it had.

Even though I won't be an American (hopefully) at that time, I sort of disagree. While he's nowhere the level of Trump, W. marred us horribly. I was studying in McGill at that time and I was afraid of saying I was American because Bush. Was. HATED. We all fell down to his level.

Then Obama came. And we were the golden children again.

At this point, I think we need to measure the amount of Obamas we will need to get in the good graces of the World.

I think we need... Three Obamas in a row and maybe even an alternative fuel source.

So another 24 years of drone strikes, corporate welfare, neo-liberalism but great PR. Honestly the fact that Obama is the best that America can manage and are praised for it is a sign that we should just try and sink it to the bottom of the ocean and hope Canada will be fine.

Anyone who thinks Bernie is going to end Drone Strikes is na?ve.

Obama was the best President we have had atleast since Lincoln. His imperfections were a mix of good intentions (trying to compromise with Republicans who literally condemn everything Obama ever did, even when he did things they themselves came up with) and things that by merely being President of the US will happen (such as being neck deep in military conflicts around the world). Obama's sins were believing in unity and being President after Bush.

And allying with Wall Street, and the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries (among others). Which is the actual reason he "tried to compromise with Republicans" who literally condemned everything he ever did. You're right that it's remarkable that he would continue to try to work with them despite their making it abundantly clear that they would not reciprocate. One would very easily come to the conclusion that he would have to be stupid. But he's not stupid. He's rich now.

You can look at the emails that clearly lay out that he was having his cabinet selected by the wealthy interests who financed his campaign. You can see that he disbanded his grassroots army that helped him win in 2008: demobilized it because an energized grassroots would push for actually significant change, which is exactly what the money did not want. You can see his choices to ramp up drone strikes, to deport millions of people, to protect the banks from their own bad decisions but fuck those who were underwater on their mortgages.

You think he was the best since Lincoln? He couldn't even rise to the economic occasion like FDR.

Ah yes, FDR, cause who gives a fuck about term limits, right? Oh, and lets not forget how he was dragging us into war, cause how dare a President be involved with war right?

Tell me the Presidents better than Obama, I want to know what exactly evil things you think are more acceptable, cause no US President is clean.

 

[Silvanus]

Ah yes, FDR, cause who gives a fuck about term limits, right?

Term limits were not in place until 1951, after FDR's death.

Oh, and lets not forget how he was dragging us into war, cause how dare a President be involved with war right?

Are you seriously suggesting that it's a point against FDR that he took the US to war against the Axis?

 

[Saelune]

Ah yes, FDR, cause who gives a fuck about term limits, right?

Term limits were not in place until 1951, after FDR's death.

Oh, and lets not forget how he was dragging us into war, cause how dare a President be involved with war right?

Are you seriously suggesting that it's a point against FDR that he took the US to war against the Axis?

Term limits were made because FDR broke a then un-broken tradition. Just because something is not illegal, doesnt mean it is ok to do.

If people are going to condemn Obama for drone strikes cause war is always bad, they have to also believe that fighting WW2 was bad. Personally, I wish the US went to war against the Nazis sooner, and for the sake of justice rather than just cause they were allied with Japan, but I am not the one arguing that Obama is bad for even touching war.

 

[Silvanus]

Term limits were made because FDR broke a then un-broken tradition. Just because something is not illegal, doesnt mean it is ok to do.

Yes, a tradition. To be perfectly honest, I don't care one iota if a President breaks tradition. Why should we?

If people are going to condemn Obama for drone strikes cause war is always bad, they have to also believe that fighting WW2 was bad.

This doesn't follow at all. Almost everybody agrees that war is sometimes justified (such as in WW2), while also condemning the most egregious instances of war. There's absolutely no reason someone can't condemn drone strikes and the US wars in the Middle East while also believing US involvement in WW2 was justified. That's perfectly consistent.

 

[Trunkage]

Ah yes, FDR, cause who gives a fuck about term limits, right?

Term limits were not in place until 1951, after FDR's death.

Oh, and lets not forget how he was dragging us into war, cause how dare a President be involved with war right?

Are you seriously suggesting that it's a point against FDR that he took the US to war against the Axis?

Term limits were made because FDR broke a then un-broken tradition. Just because something is not illegal, doesnt mean it is ok to do.

If people are going to condemn Obama for drone strikes cause war is always bad, they have to also believe that fighting WW2 was bad. Personally, I wish the US went to war against the Nazis sooner, and for the sake of justice rather than just cause they were allied with Japan, but I am not the one arguing that Obama is bad for even touching war.

Yeah, that's not the reason to dislike FDR. Well, at least as much as the fact that he saw Nazi Germany (early, before they became aggressive) and copied some of their economic policies, eg. cartels. I have some understanding why some people are totally against Socialism. Organising business to 'help the little guy' ended up making sure there could be no new owners, more expensive goods or destroyed current businesses. But at least he did organise unions so employees had less pay and worked more hours

 

[Agema]

You...have a very different opinion of Trump's competence than I do.

As president, I think he's mostly competent at PR to his base and using public money for self-enrichment by directing government business through his own properties.

At governance, however, he's pretty awful. He clearly has a problem appointing appropriate staff. He's pretty awful at getting support from the legislature to advance any agendas (his successes are merely mainstream Republican policies whilst they controlled both houses). His foreign policy seems to have been great for Israel and North Korea, but it's hard to see a single achievement for the USA except for alienating its allies and annihilating its international reputation. Economically, it's a mediocrity dressed up prettily by a short (and already expired) boost after tax cuts.

 

[Saelune]

Term limits were made because FDR broke a then un-broken tradition. Just because something is not illegal, doesnt mean it is ok to do.

Yes, a tradition. To be perfectly honest, I don't care one iota if a President breaks tradition. Why should we?

If people are going to condemn Obama for drone strikes cause war is always bad, they have to also believe that fighting WW2 was bad.

This doesn't follow at all. Almost everybody agrees that war is sometimes justified (such as in WW2), while also condemning the most egregious instances of war. There's absolutely no reason someone can't condemn drone strikes and the US wars in the Middle East while also believing US involvement in WW2 was justified. That's perfectly consistent.

Ah yes, FDR, cause who gives a fuck about term limits, right?

Term limits were not in place until 1951, after FDR's death.

Oh, and lets not forget how he was dragging us into war, cause how dare a President be involved with war right?

Are you seriously suggesting that it's a point against FDR that he took the US to war against the Axis?

Term limits were made because FDR broke a then un-broken tradition. Just because something is not illegal, doesnt mean it is ok to do.

If people are going to condemn Obama for drone strikes cause war is always bad, they have to also believe that fighting WW2 was bad. Personally, I wish the US went to war against the Nazis sooner, and for the sake of justice rather than just cause they were allied with Japan, but I am not the one arguing that Obama is bad for even touching war.

Yeah, that's not the reason to dislike FDR. Well, at least as much as the fact that he saw Nazi Germany (early, before they became aggressive) and copied some of their economic policies, eg. cartels. I have some understanding why some people are totally against Socialism. Organising business to 'help the little guy' ended up making sure there could be no new owners, more expensive goods or destroyed current businesses. But at least he did organise unions so employees had less pay and worked more hours

I am defending Obama by pointing out the faults in condemning him without applying that same standard to past Presidents.

I think term limits is a good thing, and while 'tradition' is perhaps a bad defense, 'its not illegal, so its not wrong' IS.

Obama is not perfect, but literally no President ever has been. If we are going to apply an impossibly high bar to him, we cannot excuse anyone else. Some people might be ok with bigoted double-standards, but not me.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Personally, I wish the US went to war against the Nazis sooner, and for the sake of justice rather than just cause they were allied with Japan

Getting a bit off-topic, but that's not why the US went to war with Germany, Germany (and Italy) declared war on the US shortly after Pearl Harbour, the US declared war back afterwards.