Poll: 40mm: N00B T00B or Pro Pipe?

[SomeBoredGuy]

Depends on the game. If we're talking about Bad Company 2, it's an important part of gameplay.

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

I still don't see you answering my question: What is the difference between "using the best strategy/weapon/whatever" and "abusing a lack of balance"? I understand that some weapons or tactics can be unbalanced, but what makes you decide that one imbalance is "pro" and another imbalance is "noob"?

Apart from that, how does all of this this imply that overpowered weapons are "noob" weapons (or tactics)? If a weapon is more powerful than the rest, why wouldn't a pro player use that weapon? After all, pro gamers play to win, which means they won't restrict themselves to weak weapons just because they're harder to use. Using a weapon because you think it's cooler or more balanced is great, but it has absolutely nothing to do with being a pro player.

Seriously you have never played in even anything midly competitive have you? In PB mod in CoD4 which is the competitive mod in standard tournaments you are stuck to using Stopping Power and Deep Impact only as perks with as far as I remember all shotguns removed the P90 aswell and a few other things as well. Speaking of which a big no no in competitive play in CoD4 was 40mils. In more lax tournaments you are allowed a bit more freedom but fuck all allows you to fully use everything there is nearly always some limitation especially on tubes and P90. To use another example Akuma is banned from competitive SF matches and so are certain Yu-Gi-Oh cards as well until recently Legendaries from competitve pokemon games. Everywhere you look in competitve world of gaming there are restrictions.

In a balanced game there is no best the is no best anything something can always be countered and beat with another strategy that is why something that is imbalanced requires a special strategy/tactic/skill or whatever outside of normal use or conventional gameplay to counter it. There is no such thing as using an imbalanced weapon and being pro. Nothing imbalanced can even be considered pro. To go back to Guild Wars 90% of the top guilds use the Balanced Team GvG build. Very few using gimmicky shit. Besides that I never even implied an imbalanced strategy was pro and as I have mentioned and given plenty of examples of these imbalanced aspects being removed from competitve play if not from conventional play by Devs.

There are several things very wrong with your argument. Yes, it's true that certain characters or weapons are sometimes banned from tournaments. However, that has absolutely nothing to do with "pro" vs "noob". If you'd ever been to a tournament (it's funny that you question my experience while showcasing your own lack of it), you'd know that (for example) Akuma is banned because if he wasn't, those tournaments would mostly involve Akuma vs Akuma fights. If you think even for a moment that a noob would beat a pro if only they had access to Akuma, that's hilariously wrong. Such differences are only significant on a pro level, which is why tournaments tend to have different rules from public servers. Restrictions aren't meant to keep noobs out, but to keep the game's dynamic interesting on the high level these games are played at. Many games, especially stuff like Pokemon, simply weren't designed with such a high level of competitiveness in mind, which is why they have to create specific rules for such situations. If you think this has anything to do with noob vs pro, you're dead wrong.

The thought that in a balanced game there is no "best" is obvious, but there are almost no games that are that balanced. There is still, in any situation, one weapon or character or strategy or whatever, that is better than others. And what weapon is better than the rest depends a lot on the level of skill of players. To name an example, in good old StarCraft it's often said that Protoss can auto-win by just massing carriers. However, this is almost exclusively said by players that aren't very good, because at higher levels that percieved imbalance really isn't an issue.

I've played GW a lot in the past, and I find it hilarious that you use GW as an example for this, because it does more to hurt your case than to help it. You say 90% of the people use a 'balanced' team build. There are two reasons for this. First of all, because 90% of the players can't make a good build to save their lives, and just grab the top build from PvXwiki. Second, it's because a balanced build gives you the best chance to win any given matchup. You make a big mistake in thinking that "balanced" in this case means "not the most powerful". In this context, "balanced" means that the strategy is balanced to take on all types of opponents in stead of being specialized to take on one specific type of opponent. Sure a gimmicky build might get you an unexpected win or two, but a balanced build will give you the best matchups on average since it doesn't have any glaring weak spots. This means that the "balanced" build is (surprise), the best build! Which brings us back to my original point, that a pro player uses the best tools available to him, that give him the greatest chance to win.

In conclusion, I repeat: There are no noob or pro weapons, just noob or pro players.

If you're interested in continueing to pretend you know what you're talking about, do me a favor and read <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.170536>this thread first, since I made it specifically in an attempt (futile, but still) to channel discussions like this one into something resembling a coherent thread.

 

[Necromancer1991]

Frankly the grenade physics in CoD are messed up, look at the grenade launcher in say TF2 or BC2, they behave realistically with an actual parabolic arc,I've seen enough footage from the game (I've never have and never will play a game that lets you dual-wield fully-powered shotguns as secondaries in multiplayer) to figure out that the grenades travel in almost a straight line which in my opinion is BS.

P.S. the RPGs get almost no kills because apparently they skip along the ground without exploding.

 

[Gardenia]

In bc2, if you use from time to time, you're ok. If you are rank 5 with 9 Gold Stars on the 40mm, running around with extra grenades and upgraded explosions, you are a noobtuber.

 

[Eldarion]

Frankly the grenade physics in CoD are messed up, look at the grenade launcher in say TF2 or BC2, they behave realistically with an actual parabolic arc,I've seen enough footage from the game (I've never have and never will play a game that lets you dual-wield fully-powered shotguns as secondaries in multiplayer) to figure out that the grenades travel in almost a straight line which in my opinion is BS.

P.S. the RPGs get almost no kills because apparently they skip along the ground without exploding.

Realistic? Have you ever seen a real grenade? The blast radius on a frag would shower shrapnel on everything within 15 meters if games where being "realistic". If that was the blast in game, they would be hideously overpowered.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

I still don't see you answering my question: What is the difference between "using the best strategy/weapon/whatever" and "abusing a lack of balance"? I understand that some weapons or tactics can be unbalanced, but what makes you decide that one imbalance is "pro" and another imbalance is "noob"?

Apart from that, how does all of this this imply that overpowered weapons are "noob" weapons (or tactics)? If a weapon is more powerful than the rest, why wouldn't a pro player use that weapon? After all, pro gamers play to win, which means they won't restrict themselves to weak weapons just because they're harder to use. Using a weapon because you think it's cooler or more balanced is great, but it has absolutely nothing to do with being a pro player.

Seriously you have never played in even anything midly competitive have you? In PB mod in CoD4 which is the competitive mod in standard tournaments you are stuck to using Stopping Power and Deep Impact only as perks with as far as I remember all shotguns removed the P90 aswell and a few other things as well. Speaking of which a big no no in competitive play in CoD4 was 40mils. In more lax tournaments you are allowed a bit more freedom but fuck all allows you to fully use everything there is nearly always some limitation especially on tubes and P90. To use another example Akuma is banned from competitive SF matches and so are certain Yu-Gi-Oh cards as well until recently Legendaries from competitve pokemon games. Everywhere you look in competitve world of gaming there are restrictions.

In a balanced game there is no best the is no best anything something can always be countered and beat with another strategy that is why something that is imbalanced requires a special strategy/tactic/skill or whatever outside of normal use or conventional gameplay to counter it. There is no such thing as using an imbalanced weapon and being pro. Nothing imbalanced can even be considered pro. To go back to Guild Wars 90% of the top guilds use the Balanced Team GvG build. Very few using gimmicky shit. Besides that I never even implied an imbalanced strategy was pro and as I have mentioned and given plenty of examples of these imbalanced aspects being removed from competitve play if not from conventional play by Devs.

There are several things very wrong with your argument. Yes, it's true that certain characters or weapons are sometimes banned from tournaments. However, that has absolutely nothing to do with "pro" vs "noob". If you'd ever been to a tournament (it's funny that you question my experience while showcasing your own lack of it), you'd know that (for example) Akuma is banned because if he wasn't, those tournaments would mostly involve Akuma vs Akuma fights. If you think even for a moment that a noob would beat a pro if only they had access to Akuma, that's hilariously wrong. Such differences are only significant on a pro level, which is why tournaments tend to have different rules from public servers. Restrictions aren't meant to keep noobs out, but to keep the game's dynamic interesting on the high level these games are played at. Many games, especially stuff like Pokemon, simply weren't designed with such a high level of competitiveness in mind, which is why they have to create specific rules for such situations. If you think this has anything to do with noob vs pro, you're dead wrong.

The thought that in a balanced game there is no "best" is obvious, but there are almost no games that are that balanced. There is still, in any situation, one weapon or character or strategy or whatever, that is better than others. And what weapon is better than the rest depends a lot on the level of skill of players. To name an example, in good old StarCraft it's often said that Protoss can auto-win by just massing carriers. However, this is almost exclusively said by players that aren't very good, because at higher levels that percieved imbalance really isn't an issue.

I've played GW a lot in the past, and I find it hilarious that you use GW as an example for this, because it does more to hurt your case than to help it. You say 90% of the people use a 'balanced' team build. There are two reasons for this. First of all, because 90% of the players can't make a good build to save their lives, and just grab the top build from PvXwiki. Second, it's because a balanced build gives you the best chance to win any given matchup. You make a big mistake in thinking that "balanced" in this case means "not the most powerful". In this context, "balanced" means that the strategy is balanced to take on all types of opponents in stead of being specialized to take on one specific type of opponent. Sure a gimmicky build might get you an unexpected win or two, but a balanced build will give you the best matchups on average since it doesn't have any glaring weak spots. This means that the "balanced" build is (surprise), the best build! Which brings us back to my original point, that a pro player uses the best tools available to him, that give him the greatest chance to win.

In conclusion, I repeat: There are no noob or pro weapons, just noob or pro players.

If you're interested in continueing to pretend you know what you're talking about, do me a favor and read <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.170536>this thread first, since I made it specifically in an attempt (futile, but still) to channel discussions like this one into something resembling a coherent thread.

That is kinda of the point of banning things like Akuma yes Pro players play to win as obviously it is their job if you are a pro you are going to be making money out of it as is the point of being a pro. If noob tubes are allowed everyone would use them same as Akuma because it is their money on the line that is why nothing imba can be pro. That is what I meant be restrictions I never meant them as something to keep noobs out but lose imba weapons to keep the level competitive. Also to go with SF in IV an inexperienced player can abuse Zangief to beat cocky players.

I don't really see how the balanced arguement hurts me as balanced uses a good balanced team because it is balanced. You could say it is the best but there so many different variations of it so there is one definte version of it that is the best so I hardly see so it is the best if there are so many different interchangable parts to it so it can change dramtically. You could argue as you have that it is the one best build but I just see it as a genral interchangeable template of a standrad 2-3 frontline 3 backline 3-2midline. Yes it is balanced but it can be beaten by any build you don't need some magic specially strategy tht only works against balanced which is what I mean when I am talking about noob imbalances. Anything that is noobish something that requires a special strategy to beat and that strategy will do fuck all against all else. To go with GW again using a farming build in AB would a noobish thing to do as opposed to say exploiting the Rangers spammable interupts to spam interupt casters that is a difference in my eyes of a noob and normal exploit.

I just thought I needed something like t hat to clear it up as correct if I'm wrong but I really thing we just dancing around the same point here as I already put accross the point that are no pro weapons. I do agree with you that it is really up to player but somethings can be noobish like the original point of spamming 40mils only and nothing else or with gw the Toucher build.

 

[McGee]

It's the skill cylinder, dude.

 

[skywalkerlion]

MW2: Noob tube

BC2: Atleast here it's for destroying walls as opposed to just spamming it like an actual weapon.

 

[Mr. In-between]

Snip

This, because what you're saying is exactly how I feel. People who ***** about the grenade launcher (which is by far, one of the most fun weapons in the game), are only bitching because they suck and always get killed by it.

Shooting someone directly in the face with the grenade so that it doesn't even detonate is possibly the coolest way to score kills in MW2.

 

[Pyre00]

I want to get all the people who think weapons are cheap and get them to fight a real war.

"Aww you douche, we said no nuclear warfare."

"No M16 you fag!"

...Of course, we are playing a VIDEO GAME, not fighting an actual war, so I'll complain as much as I want.

Grenade launchers, and explosives in general, are incredibly easy to use in most games, especially in close quarters, where very little to no aiming is required. In BC2 it's essentaily a "win button". Don't give me shit about "having to learn how to arc them" or "leading targets" because it is mostly used in close-to-medium range where you can use one hand and win.

I respect the people who use the rocket launchers in that game however, because while they are much like the 40mm, at least they don't have the game's best automatic weapons strapped to their n00b t00b, and the fact is that they are more often used to bunker-bust and rocket-snipe than as a win button.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

I believe the phrase 'Pro Pipe' came from the Bungie blog when talking about the grenade launcher that they're putting in Halo: Reach.

On topic, I never got the hate for the grenade launcher in CoD4. I tried using it for half a match once, and I couldn't get anywhere with it. I'm amazed the grenade launcher isn't more of an issue in BC2 since the assault class can use the ammo box to give himself an infinite supply of grenades. Sure they reload slowly, but with the upgraded explosives and grenade ammo you can sit in a building and spam them all day.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Pro Pipe sounds more MANLY, noob toob doesnt sound MANLY


MANLY!

I...kind of agree with you there. It does. Must be the phallic reference.

It is hard for noobs to get kills with the 40mm. Once you play enough you learn to adjust for long range and can get amazing kills with it.

Depends on the game. It is easy to get kills with on MW2, it's a horribly easy-to-use weapon with very high damage. That combined with incredibly broken classes and the way most maps are designed makes for an overpowered weapon. You could call it noobly. In BC2 however, it's a lot harder to use the 40mm effectively.

I'm amazed the grenade launcher isn't more of an issue in BC2 since the assault class can use the ammo box to give himself an infinite supply of grenades. Sure they reload slowly, but with the upgraded explosives and grenade ammo you can sit in a building and spam them all day.

The maps are a lot more open in BC2 than in CoD4 and especially MW2 making the 40mm not even nearly as effective as a 'spam and pwn' weapon as in the latter games. It's deadly, yeah, but MW2's 'noob tube' problems don't just stem from the weapon itself, it's a combination of map design, class design and the weapon.

Grenade launchers, and explosives in general, are incredibly easy to use in most games, especially in close quarters, where very little to no aiming is required. In BC2 it's essentaily a "win button". Don't give me shit about "having to learn how to arc them" or "leading targets" because it is mostly used in close-to-medium range where you can use one hand and win.

Never noticed it being a very large problem in BC2, as you usually don't encounter people on their own (at least I don't) thanks to the awesome spawning system. The high reload time, from my experience, doesn't make the 40mm as good as an assault weapon in BC2 as in MW2. I noticed it's more of a "Heeeeere's Johnny!" surprise weapon and clearing out campers, not 'roflpwning' people so much with as with the 40mm in MW2.

 

[Kursura]

well... it all depends... If the person using them is just launching them around in random directions hoping to get a kill then thats using noobtubes

however if a person stratigicaly launches it where they know exactly if they hit the right spot they will kill at least 2 people then thats what i call a pro pipe

hope people agree with me on that one lol

I agree with that.

People like in the videos Uszi posted are annoying, but thats more to do with bad level design rather than the weapon being "noobish".

 

[Necromancer1991]

Frankly the grenade physics in CoD are messed up, look at the grenade launcher in say TF2 or BC2, they behave realistically with an actual parabolic arc,I've seen enough footage from the game (I've never have and never will play a game that lets you dual-wield fully-powered shotguns as secondaries in multiplayer) to figure out that the grenades travel in almost a straight line which in my opinion is BS.

P.S. the RPGs get almost no kills because apparently they skip along the ground without exploding.

Realistic? Have you ever seen a real grenade? The blast radius on a frag would shower shrapnel on everything within 15 meters if games where being "realistic". If that was the blast in game, they would be hideously overpowered.

I'm just saying the physics behind the grenades flightpath is messed up, that's all. I've seen what grenades are capable of and it's scary as all hell. Also to make myself perfectly clear on my opinion as far as MW2 multiplayer is, it's broken in every regard (you have skywalking, super-speed, javelin suicide-bombers, etc).

 

[Agrael]

Well, I use it with my (we are talking about mw2 here..) Noobtube #1 and Noobtube #2 classes (Hint: One man army pro) and I only use it on domination, because I have fixed Locations of the flags, and I turn into a mortar (doesn't usually end that well [I do it for my fun]).

But, no, it is not noobish.

 

[lostzombies.com]

My loadout for cod is

scar with pro pipe
RPGs
scavenger
danger close pro
ninja

claymore an smoke


I love to annoy people on live [read: annoy people who take the game seriously] winning games doesn't generally give me any satisfaction, on the other hand, when someone I see people flying across the map, I love that. Also when someone explodes at you in the lobby, that is also fun

 

[NoDamnNames]

Off note: why does the M79 "Thumper" in MWF2 have less range than the m203, even though it has a longer barrel and therefore more stabilization and acceleration of the projectile which should (in theory and the real world) result in better range. In reality M79 fired projectiles don't land at your feet if aimed at a 45 degree angle like in MWF2
=/= Sense


On another Off note on Noob weapons: Why is the AutoShotty in CSS considered a N00b Weapon? It holds less ammo, does less damage, and has fewer shot pellets per shot(strange, since they are both firing 00 buck) than the Pump Shotty, making it have less range and lethality.
=/= Sense

On if the Noobtube is a N00b weapon or not, depends entirely on the technique with which it is used AND the games engine logic associated with it. There is allot of variance from game to game, making it a n00b gun in some games and an underpowered water ballon launcher in others)

 

[A.C.E]

I play MAG so when you do eventually get to the underbarrel grenade launcher youve probably earned it all the rockets in that game suck completely in MW2 they are all probably the cheapest and most broken weapons ive ever seen i mean you dont even have to really aim just point and shoot with the rocket/grenade launcher and youve got yourself basicly a kill or two in a few seconds this is only one of the reasons i dont play MW2 along with a knife that can practicly kill you from a continent away, akimbo automatic weapons and one shot sniper rifles that kill you by shooting you in the foot

 

[Tdc2182]

I want to get all the people who think weapons are cheap and get them to fight a real war.

"Aww you douche, we said no nuclear warfare."

"No M16 you fag!"

...Of course, we are playing a VIDEO GAME, not fighting an actual war, so I'll complain as much as I want.

Grenade launchers, and explosives in general, are incredibly easy to use in most games, especially in close quarters, where very little to no aiming is required. In BC2 it's essentaily a "win button". Don't give me shit about "having to learn how to arc them" or "leading targets" because it is mostly used in close-to-medium range where you can use one hand and win.

I respect the people who use the rocket launchers in that game however, because while they are much like the 40mm, at least they don't have the game's best automatic weapons strapped to their n00b t00b, and the fact is that they are more often used to bunker-bust and rocket-snipe than as a win button.

The way some people act, its almost like it is real life.

And I have honestly never had a problem with the grenade launcher in BC2. It is 2 almost direct hits to kill someone, if that.