Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[inmunitas]

Cis male here. My general opinion is towards gender neutral facilities instead of the above choices. But until the day comes when those are the norm, trans* people should be allowed to use the changing room that matches their gender identity.

Gender and sexuality doesn't come into it, changing room partitions are purely based on sex.

Unless you are required to provide DNA test results every time you want to use a changing room and other changing rooms are provided for people who have neither XX nor XY chromosomes, changing rooms are not partitioned based purely on sex.

DNA test? I'm talking about sex organs/genitalia/physical appearance.

 

[elvor0]

No it isn't, it's a guy identifying as a woman, that is not the same as a biological woman and you know that, you can't have transgenderism be special and non existant at the same time.

A trans woman is a woman. That's why the second part of "trans woman" is woman.

On the other side of that coin, someone who is biologically a man, is a man.

And the first part of Trans-woman is Trans, you can't pretend the first half doesn't exist, especially when it appears we're dealing with some who just identifies as a woman.

Mentally a woman, not physically a man. Gender and sex are not the same thing.

Take it literally: from her point of VIEW, she sees what is biologically a male, how is she immedietly supposed to know that this man identifies as a woman? And even if she did, that doesn't change what is physically in front of her.

Suppose she was a cis woman instead, but looked like a man to her. Does that change anything?

Yes, because her sex would be female, so she goes into the female changing rooms. Gender and Sex are not the same thing.

And what about the Panda people, do they not get a defence?

A cis woman that looks like a man to Cormier uses the male changing room?

Huh.

I think inmunitas might've misunderstood what "cis" means, or just said the wrong thing there.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

If you ask me, changing rooms should be based on your sex, not gender. If you have all the male bits, you should change with other men. If you have the female bits, change with other women. Until you do the sex change OP, you're still the sex you were born, no amount of wishful thinking will change it.

We live in the physical world, I don't know what's going through your head. If you look like a man, you are one.

 

[Zombie_Fish]

DNA test? I'm talking about sex organs/genitalia.

Genitalia and sex are not the same thing. And checking if someone's junk matches the changing room is a violation of privacy.

Or be accurate 99.96% of the time.

Exceptions don't make the rules.

I remember a few years back when this argument was used against gay marriage rights. Exceptions don't make the rules, but they do seem to get screwed over by them.

 

[inmunitas]

DNA test? I'm talking about sex organs/genitalia.

Genitalia and sex are not the same thing.

Check your facts. "Sex: the sum of the characteristics that distinguish organisms on the basis of their reproductive function" - http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sex

And checking if someone's junk matches the changing room is a violation of privacy.

No it's not, you shouldn't have to but it's no "violation of privacy".

 

[The Lunatic]

I remember a few years back when this argument was used against gay marriage rights. Exceptions don't make the rules, but they do seem to get screwed over by them.

I'm not really sure how comparable the discrimination against sexual preference in marriage is to having to use a bathroom that doesn't quite match your sex is.

Regardless, my point was "You don't know people's sex without a DNA test" is a complete fallacy and a silly statement to make.

 

[Yan007]

I say we simply should have a single locker room for everyone. Why segregate the sexes any longer?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Leave it to the trans person's discretion. Forget for a minute what you feel like and ask yourself what do you look like. If you're confident enough in your appearence, go one way. If you're not, go the other. All of us make compromises every minute of the day between what we want to do and what we should do. You don't have to turn everything into a test in moral principle. Just go to the one bathroom you feel that won't cause a scene and get it over with.

 

[inmunitas]

I say we simply should have a single locker room for everyone. Why segregate the sexes any longer?

We would need to desensitise people to the naked form.

 

[lord.jeff]

I know this is an over simplified solution to a complex problem but why not say as soon as you start hormone therapy you switch locker rooms.

 

[mad825]

If you ask me, changing rooms should be based on your sex, not gender. If you have all the male bits, you should change with other men. If you have the female bits, change with other women. Until you do the sex change OP, you're still the sex you were born, no amount of wishful thinking will change it.

We live in the physical world, I don't know what's going through your head. If you look like a man, you are one.

Logic would dictate that however most LGBT activists are arrogant or at least in denial about this matter. If you simply want to be then you must simply be, no questions about it.

As for same sex bathrooms, it isn't going to really happen especially where social pressure is high such as in schools. Unisex bathrooms agenda isn't about equality but more on saving on money/resources/space.

 

[Robert Marrs]

Its a very complicated issue. I also think its interesting that people only seem to throw a fit when its men going into womens places but that is another discussion I suppose. I personally don't care who uses my bathrooms so long as they don't bother me but I can see why it would make other people uncomfortable. Isn't is something like 1% of people are transgender? Sucks to say but we can start making public policy for the sake of such a small amount of people if others don't want it to happen. At the end of the day it does not matter what surgery you get or how you identify. Your sex is what it is and you can't expect everyone else to change so you can feel more comfortable.

 

[loa]

I guess it all comes down to the question why we keep dividing up the sexes and if that is useful in the first place.
Dividing by sexes is only a natural symptom of our psychotic culture that sexualizes nudity and represses people constantly.
Maybe even a necessity unless we change something very fundamental about it but then again doing so only serves to perpetuate that very culture, doesn't it.
I have no idea. Where does one begin to de-sexualize nudity in a quasi-theocracy?
Force everyone to take nude model drawing classes? Probably not since people even flip tables over regular sex-ed classes in the us of a.

 

[chadachada123]

I say let them into whatever locker room they want, but warn people when they're applying for a membership that the gym has transgender people and that they use the locker room of the gender they identify as. Also, have a couple of changing stalls in the locker rooms so that people who are shy can use them and not worry about being seen by others. Seems simple enough to me.

Seems like a pretty simple solution, right? I've never been to a gym in my life, but every other change room I've been in has stalls (at work, etc) .... toilets have stalls and hangers on the door for this purpose. At least they do here. Not sure if that's a 'accross the West' type of thing.

There's no privacy stalls at the gym I go to. There's a big room with a bunch of lockers and a couple of benches, and that's where you change and put your stuff away, then there's a connected bathroom that has some bathroom stalls, but all of them are too small to change in (except the handicapped stall), and a shower area. Most people just put a towel around themselves when they're changing, except the old people who just let their balls drag on the floor and don't give any fucks.

Personally it's never bothered me, but I never change at the gym since I ride my bike there and back.

I remember being incredibly annoyed once after finding out that, at a water park I went to, the boys changing room was just a giant open room, while the girls was entirely stall-based. Being 12, the idea of changing in front of a bunch of adult dudes was pretty nasty at the time. (I later joined the swim team in high school and learned to not give a fuck, but yeah)

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I'm torn as well. I can see the need some people have for acceptance and wanting to be where they want to belong. Good! Great! And we the normatively gendered should be supportive.
Having said that, I would worry about those who simply use the trans identity as a cover. What if a guy wanted to spy on women and just said "Oh, I self identify as a woman, therefore its okay." or vice versa. Now of course the overwhelming majority of people wouldn't abuse that system, but some definitely would. And all it takes is one case and boom, management and the media come down hard on the trans community. It'd be an absolute shitstorm and everyone would be pointing fingers, wondering whose to blame for letting a flasher into the women's restroom.


I mean I go to a gym and when I'm in the locker room, I find plenty of unlocked lockers with stuff in them. Open, see things, close, move on to next one. But to an outside observer, it does look like I'm checking out whats in the lockers. Imagine women if you come out of the showers at your local gym and find a guy looking through all the lockers. You gasp. He looks at you, smiles, then returns to his work. Dare I say you'd be concerned?

But I still see it from the other angle too. Trans people want to belong and we should let them. But I don't know how to square the circle of worry, irrational or not.

 

[freaper]

How little faith are we putting in adults that we're actually discussing the possibility of a few perverts rolling into a women's locker room with a wig, make-up and fake breasts just to ogle tired and sweaty women.

 

[Chris Moses]

Can anyone show me a proven example of a transgendered person that went through years of therapy, hormone treatment, and possibly surgery just so they can be a perv and spy on people of the "opposite" sex in bathrooms and looker rooms?

I MEAN SERIOUSLY HAS THIS EVER HAPPENED?!

I am so tired of this bullshit excuse for transphobia. Should we also ban homosexuals from these facilities? How far should we let this ignorant train of thought travel? I am so angry right now... I should stop typing...

 

[inmunitas]

Can anyone show me a proven example of a transgendered person that went through years of therapy, hormone treatment, and possibly surgery just so they can be a perv and spy on people of the "opposite" sex in bathrooms and looker rooms?

I MEAN SERIOUSLY HAS THIS EVER HAPPENED?!

I am so tired of this bullshit excuse for transphobia. Should we also ban homosexuals from these facilities? How far should we let this ignorant train of thought travel? I am so angry right now... I should stop typing...

Hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery should be seen as options of treatment, not requirements.

 

[Chris Moses]

On the other side of that coin, someone who is biologically a man, is a man.

And the first part of Trans-woman is Trans, you can't pretend the first half doesn't exist, especially when it appears we're dealing with some who just identifies as a woman.

Mentally a woman, not physically a man. Gender and sex are not the same thing.

What about a man or a woman with ambiguous genitalia and/or secondary sex characteristics like a woman with a beard or a man with breasts.

Your "biology only" assertions fall apart when dealing with these people. This to me is why trans people need to be able to exist as they feel internally because nature/biology is a cruel ***** and doesn't always give us the clear-cut black and white differentiations that you seem to need to exist in your cis world.

And it doesn't stop with biology. There are doctors that like to turn "ambiguous" boys into girls because they felt it would be easier to be a "girl" with missing boy parts than it is to be a boy with small and/or misshapen genitalia. These doctors FORCE people into situations that come into conflict with your "XY = male ONLY : XX = female ONLY" dichotomy and it's totally NOT THEIR FAULT.

 

[Joe_solo]

Can anyone show me a proven example of a transgendered person that went through years of therapy, hormone treatment, and possibly surgery just so they can be a perv and spy on people of the "opposite" sex in bathrooms and looker rooms?

I MEAN SERIOUSLY HAS THIS EVER HAPPENED?!

I am so tired of this bullshit excuse for transphobia. Should we also ban homosexuals from these facilities? How far should we let this ignorant train of thought travel? I am so angry right now... I should stop typing...

Hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery should be seen as options of treatment, not requirements.

Then they're physically still the original gender if they don't get it changed.

I understand that ome people want to change what they are, and they have a right to it, but other people also have a right to feel safe. And I can understand someone not believing someone else saying they're actually a woman if they have male equipment, so to speak.


Best solution would be to hang up a tarp and have a "non-original gender" section or some such.