Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

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Kathinka

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Silvanus said:
HankyPanky said:
May I have a link/reference to the studies?
Sure thing.

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract
Just weighting in as someone who has lately worked with shit ton of studies because I wrote my doctorate on that stuff: It is worth nothing that this is a change that occurs after living as the identified-as gender for a time. MtF transwomen are still born with a "male" brain and FtM with a "female" brain. It's a change similar to how the part of the brain responsible for sound will develop in a violine player, or the one tasked with orientation and path finding in a taxi driver.
Of course that doesn't make the condition any less real or serious. Just something worth noting when the old theory from the 70s and 80s "born with the wrong brain" gets thrown around.
 

Boris Goodenough

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Kathinka said:
Just weighting in as someone who has lately worked with shit ton of studies because I wrote my doctorate on that stuff: It is worth nothing that this is a change that occurs after living as the identified-as gender for a time.
I would like a link for that.
 

Diaconu Cristian

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Not sure why this is complicated but:
penises in the man's room
vagina's in the ladies room
simple as that.

What you identify as is another issue completely. And no you don't get to choose, you get to grow a thicker skin if things in life don't go as you want them (oh poor you, you where born with a d**k but like to play with barbies... well guess what some kids won't have anything to eat in the next few days so nobody owes you anything)
Now if you change your P into a V than you get to go to the ladies room.

Also, the amount of muscles you posses should not overrule the P for man's room and V for ladies room.
If you are one strong chick than you get to go to the ladies room even if someone can mistake you for a guy.

The reason we have different lockers for different genders is because women wouldn't feel safe to change with men around (men would probably not give a rats ass about it).
 

Kathinka

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Boris Goodenough said:
Kathinka said:
Just weighting in as someone who has lately worked with shit ton of studies because I wrote my doctorate on that stuff: It is worth nothing that this is a change that occurs after living as the identified-as gender for a time.
I would like a link for that.
I don't have web links (doing this stuff with a library like a good little med student), but I'll provide the studies and I'm sure if you are super interested you can dig most of them up online.
The first significant to our issue here are twin studies (the first conducted by Buhrich, Bailey an Martin, in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken.)
If indeed a transperson were born with a non-matching brain, genes, hormonal exposure or something like that would be responsible (a stance known as 'biological determinism'). If that were so, it would mean that monotonically twins would always both be trans, since they share exactly the same genes and were exposed to the same hormones before birth and so on. Since that isn't the case, as found in the twin studies conducted, the born-with-female-brain-in-male-body theory is probably lacking. That doesn't mean that genetics or hormonal exposure don't play a role, but it obviously isn't the deciding factor.
Another interesting study (Chung, WC; De Vries, GJ; Swaab, DF, can probably be found online) found that the change didn't occur until in adulthood. The reasons for that are being speculated, for example neuronal activity leading to the change and that again to the discrepancy of how the brain feels and how the body looks.
A close look at the studies that looked into a biological link between the condition and genetics, hormone exposure and so on shows that it certainly plays a role, but apparently rather minor. (Check out Kruijver, Zhou).

A more likely answer is a complex interaction of genetic, hormonal and psychological factors.
The problem is that the entire debate is highly politicized and a bit of a taboo. Transgenders were, like homosexuals, for a long time victims of close-minded views and had to fight long and hard to be recognized. The idea that the condition is determined and one is born with it gives people a sense of legitimacy. Which is nonsense, the situation IS legitimate, whatever the cause. Doing bad science and hampering research into the field helps no one, lest of all the trans community itself. Still, it happens a lot because people feel like they are being attacked and get defensive when it is suggested that the condition might be more complex than a simple "born that way". Even when the people suggesting it are the ones that want to help.
 

Boris Goodenough

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Kathinka said:
I don't have web links (doing this stuff with a library like a good little med student), but I'll provide the studies and I'm sure if you are super interested you can dig most of them up online.
The first significant to our issue here are twin studies (the first conducted by Buhrich, Bailey an Martin, in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken.)
If indeed a transperson were born with a non-matching brain, genes, hormonal exposure or something like that would be responsible (a stance known as 'biological determinism'). If that were so, it would mean that monotonically twins would always both be trans, since they share exactly the same genes and were exposed to the same hormones before birth and so on. Since that isn't the case, as found in the twin studies conducted, the born-with-female-brain-in-male-body theory is probably lacking. That doesn't mean that genetics or hormonal exposure don't play a role, but it obviously isn't the deciding factor.
Another interesting study (Chung, WC; De Vries, GJ; Swaab, DF, can probably be found online) found that the change didn't occur until in adulthood. The reasons for that are being speculated, for example neuronal activity leading to the change and that again to the discrepancy of how the brain feels and how the body looks.
A close look at the studies that looked into a biological link between the condition and genetics, hormone exposure and so on shows that it certainly plays a role, but apparently rather minor. (Check out Kruijver, Zhou).

A more likely answer is a complex interaction of genetic, hormonal and psychological factors.
The problem is that the entire debate is highly politicized and a bit of a taboo. Transgenders were, like homosexuals, for a long time victims of close-minded views and had to fight long and hard to be recognized. The idea that the condition is determined and one is born with it gives people a sense of legitimacy. Which is nonsense, the situation IS legitimate, whatever the cause. Doing bad science and hampering research into the field helps no one, lest of all the trans community itself. Still, it happens a lot because people feel like they are being attacked and get defensive when it is suggested that the condition might be more complex than a simple "born that way". Even when the people suggesting it are the ones that want to help.
Thank you, sorry about the response time, I had to read them all.

Chung, WC; De Vries, GJ; Swaab, DF seem to postulate it's prenatal (and maybe perinatal) hormonal exposure seems the most likely candidate (and this is not contested in the other articles) for determining size of BTSc later on in life. Although that doesn't explain why there is no significant chance of monozygotic twins being both transgendered, limited exposure in the womb seems likely, seeing as MZ twins differ in IQ (most likely due to reduced oxygen to the second baby), finger prints, and retinas.
 

FirstNameLastName

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Diaconu Cristian said:
The reason we have different lockers for different genders is because women wouldn't feel safe to change with men around (men would probably not give a rats ass about it).
Who cares? After all, some children won't have anything to eat over the next few days, so nobody owes these women anything. And of course, the fallacy of relative privation is a perfectly valid argumentative technique, right?
 

Thaluikhain

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Reasonable Atheist said:
But you do understand my point right? The ladies room exists so they can feel safe.
I'd argue that it's about being safe, not feeling safe. Not quite the same thing.

Lil devils x said:
This is just a temporary means to try and create a barrier between victims and perpetrators, and put them in another spot that we perceive as being safer.
Based on the assumption that trans women are perpetrators, and cis people the victims.

Lil devils x said:
We cannot really use women's facilities as a refuge from violence in the mens facilities
Is that not what they are there for?

Sarge034 said:
Just not trans people, it seems.
Wait wait wait. So just because they don't get what they want they don't feel safe?
No, because forcing trans women into men's areas is known not to be safe.

Sarge034 said:
Like I said, I'm all for transgender rights, but there ARE things that need to be addressed because this is relatively a new issue. To just expect to be able to walk in and have everyone bend over backwards to accommodate *you* because *you* are "special" is naïve.
Bend over backwards, by treating trans women the way you'd treat other women? Treating women like women isn't particularly hard.
 

Kathinka

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An interesting reversal of the situation: What about the (admittedly much rarer) trans men? Would you force an 80 pound five feet trans-man looking like a girl into a mans restroom?

Tricky situation all around.
 

Demagogue

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The woman was exactly where she was supposed to be. The fact that this closed minded other woman keeps referring to her as a man shows the lack of respect for the transwoman. No, the gym shouldn't have to 'warn' all their members that they have some transgendered members, it is none of the other members business. I'm not even sure it is the gym's business to know.

No where in this story does it mention the transwoman doing or saying anything to make the other woman uncomfortable, other than just being there. I'm sorry, but if being in the mere presence of someone different than you upsets you, then maybe YOU are the problem, not them.

As for the idea of men lying to get a peek at naughty bits... get over yourself. These are not immature children, they are adults, and while you may have some adults that go to a gym just to watch the women run on treadmills or whatever, they are 1) far from the majority and 2) the reason no judgement policies exists.
 

HankyPanky

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Silvanus said:
HankyPanky said:
May I have a link/reference to the studies?
Sure thing.

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract

Journal of Psychiatric Research said:
"RESULTS: Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals."
http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00325-0/abstract

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html

Nature said:
"A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones"
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2005-05392-000/ (Behind a login, but the abstract is there).

American Psychiatric Association said:
"For example, pioneering research on structural differences in the brain validates transgender people's feeling of being a member of the other sex."
Thank you.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Lil devils x said:
Just as one can be a man or a woman, they can be a two spirit, that IS HUMAN, and it is insulting to all of those who take pride in being two spirit to claim they are not.
Where did I do this? I renounce what you think I am. That is what I renounce. Because I disagree on your analysis of my condition does not mean I'm belittling an entire culture.


Lil devils x said:
If your brain scans show you to be between to male and female spectrum, that is what would be defined as two spirit by definition.
How about if you let people identify, and self authenticate themselves rather than pretending you have any right to?

Lil devils x said:
The brain scans of males, female, and transgenders are different, and the transgender brain is neither male or female, and they should be proud of this, it is natural and healthy. In Native American cultures, these people are called two spirits, that is not an insult, or degrading it is what they are called instead of transgender. Many consider transgender to be more of a degrading term than two spirits and prefer to use that solely to define themselves.
And yet ... given I am transgender, you find my personal input invalid in regards to my self identification? Come now ... you'll need stronger. Does it at all surprise you that trans people consider themselves man or woman based on their own self authentication? If you are going to call these people liars, then what right do you have to summon my respect for superstition as key to understanding self?

Lil devils x said:
It is great that those things helped you with what you decided was wrong with your life, the issue though is what you experienced in your life that made you feel you needed to both externally and internally. Societies expectations of what it means to be male or female are part of the problem, not all societies make people feel as though they have to be one or the other in the first place. You cannot rewind and erase everything you have been exposed to since birth and change how your own perceptions of what it means to be male and female to auto correct all of the negative data you have received, but some who were instead celebrated for being two spirit never developed a negative self image, instead they loved themselves just he way they are.
I experienced philosophy, actually. It give me the means to articulate my despair ... and it gave me the strength to realise that my self expression is not merely valid, but also a stepping stone to achieving a society that can be free from artificial ideas of the essentialism of mankind. I didn't choose to physically change because of society's ideas of man or woman, but rather on my belief that there is no universal man or woman for anyone to make any valid criticism of a transgender identity.

Lil devils x said:
It is great these things helped you, and I hope they continue to help you, Some however, do not see that there is anything wrong on themselves that needs to be fixed, nor should they be pressured to.
Of course not. I am, if nothing else, a libertarian.

Lil devils x said:
If we change societies view of " what is normal" we will also change how people view themselves. When it becomes normal and considered a great thing to be two spirited, less people will have the desire to change themselves because they will already feel normal.

The problem is not feeling you are perfect to begin with, what in your environment made you feel that way, and how we go about making everyone feel as they are perfect the way they are so they all have a positive self image from the start.
And yet just as it is not for people to pretend there is normal, nor is it for you to determine who is 'two spirit'. Certainly not without the persona so identified. Why not listen to them first, to see how they feel?

Lil devils x said:
Medical consensus disproves what? My choice fields of study were Immunology and Pediatric Medicine, and I am fully aware that the studies have shown and that the transgender brain scans have shown that their brains are neither male or female, but in between. I think you misunderstand, I am not saying that you should not have surgeries if that is what you feel you need. However, I am stating that we need to address the issues in society that are pressuring people into thinking they are broken and need fixed, when they are not.
Medical consensus shows that treatment, hrt and surgical, if so desired reduces cases of suicide and increases general social participation. Though I dislike this idea that people 'need to be fixed' ....

Whilst certainly, many transgender people articulate this as such, I see it more in terms of self authentication. Something I will myself to be. It's my choice, regardless ... I see it less as fixing a problem, but rather being more true to self. Being unfaithful to one's idea of self is not necessarily a person who is 'broken'.

Indeed, I hold in confidence a gay friend who came out to me, but is afraid of what his family will say. Pretending, in the mean time, if only to give him a chance to properly come out on his own time. I do not see him as 'broken', but I do see him as reaching for his self authentication in all aspects of his life.

He is striving for it. It is a part of his character. Not broken, merely human. A crime we're all guilty of.
 

Demagogue

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XanCo said:
Looking at this fella I can see why the woman would be more than a little concerned. It looks like someone slapped a dress on Skinner from the X-Files
Did you SERIOUSLY just randomly picture hunt from google to find a picture to 'prove' your point. First off... wow, completely inappropriate...

Secondly, so just looking 'manly' is reason enough to suspect someone of being a violent person or a pervert?


And that folks is one of the biggest problems... people are guilty by snap judgements of appearance.

That's totally fine though isn't it... /sarcasm.

edit: brain 2 finger communication was disrupted.
 

Demagogue

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XanCo said:
So you're saying if that dude, I dunno, let's say followed your daughter/wife/sister into a locker room or bathroom you would just be totally fine with it? Yeah, I'm sure . . . .
A dude would have no reason to follow my sister (other two don't apply) into a locker room. However a transwoman does SHE is going to the locker room, just like my sister would be.

Putting aside the fact that, I would most likely not realize she was a transwoman to start with and I have absolutely no right to grill her upon her desire to enter on if she is or not.
 

tippy2k2

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XanCo said:
Demagogue said:
XanCo said:
Looking at this fella I can see why the woman would be more than a little concerned. It looks like someone slapped a dress on Skinner from the X-Files
Did you SERIOUSLY just randomly picture hunt from google to find a picture to 'prove' your point. First off... wow, completely inappropriate...
No, I posted a picture of what the person in question looks like. That is the person this woman saw in the locker room. By all appearances it's some big old dude in a dress. I'm sorry you are so offended by reality.
Can you show me where you got the picture? Info may have been updated but when I made the thread a few days ago, no news stories had pictures of the gal in question.
 

Boris Goodenough

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tippy2k2 said:
XanCo said:
Demagogue said:
XanCo said:
Looking at this fella I can see why the woman would be more than a little concerned. It looks like someone slapped a dress on Skinner from the X-Files
Did you SERIOUSLY just randomly picture hunt from google to find a picture to 'prove' your point. First off... wow, completely inappropriate...
No, I posted a picture of what the person in question looks like. That is the person this woman saw in the locker room. By all appearances it's some big old dude in a dress. I'm sorry you are so offended by reality.
Can you show me where you got the picture? Info may have been updated but when I made the thread a few days ago, no news stories had pictures of the gal in question.
Looks like it is from the daily mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2985579/Transgender-woman-believes-s-center-Planet-Fitness-policy-controversy-says-used-women-s-locker-room-twice-hang-coat-purse.html
 

tippy2k2

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Boris Goodenough said:
XanCo said:
Alright, thank you. I am on my phone at work (don't tell the boss!) and doing code stuff is a pain on the phone. When I get home later tonight, I will add this new info to the opening.
 

Reasonable Atheist

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Demagogue said:
The woman
No where in this story does it mention the transwoman doing or saying anything to make the other woman uncomfortable, other than just being there. I'm sorry, but if being in the mere presence of someone different than you upsets you, then maybe YOU are the problem, not them.
I believe you read this story with an extremely biased point of view. It clearly states that as she perceived it a strange man walked in on her while she was undressing, how is that not supposed to make her uncomfortable? Alot of people are accusing her of being a transphobic bigot, for saying "he looked like a man" this basically just expresses that she could not tell by lookong at them that they were even trans. Is it reasonable to assume all trans people are passable? Is it reasonable to assume all people are educated in the complex minutia of trans life? Is it reasonable to assume she has even ever seen a trans woman before? Is it reasonable to assume she can tell the difference without a name tag that says "hi i am trans" and an hour of conversation?

This world is getting stranger and stranger. I have met multiple furries, I have never even seen a trans person outside of media (it is possible I have seen one that is completely passable, but i find the hands to be dead giveaways in media). With such a tiny minority, it is not reasonable to expect everyone to understand you. The only reason i know anything about trans people is i took a specific interest because I found it fascinating.

Captcha: the bible
.....damit
 

Demagogue

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No, no I can't tell that is a man in a dress. that is a HUMAN in a dress sure, but based on the photo alone, she is simply a bigger woman.
 

AshuraSpeaks

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tippy2k2 said:
Dirty Hipsters said:
Also, have a couple of changing stalls in the locker rooms so that people who are shy can use them and not worry about being seen by others. Seems simple enough to me.
This should be implemented most of all, even if no transgender person ever wants that gym, because I hate having to change in toilet stalls.
 

The Lunatic

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XanCo said:
Demagogue said:
No, no I can't tell that is a man in a dress. that is a HUMAN in a dress sure, but based on the photo alone, she is simply a bigger woman.
Again, you might want to have your eyes checked because that is CLEARLY a dude in a dress.
Well, to be fair, in a changing room, probably wouldn't be in a dress to begin with.