Poll: Am I disgusting for not paying for the first date?

[Boris Goodenough]

I always pay for dates/valentines. And I have good reason, my gf cant legally work yet, so she currently lives off funding from her parents until she gets residency. And me essentially getting her parents to pay for stuff like that for us? Not happening.

Where the hell do you live that your girlfriend can't legally work?

I assume it is work visa related.

 

[EeveeElectro]

I typically like to split the bill, or one buy drinks, one buys food.

However, I think if the man has asked the woman rather than it be a mutual thing, he should probably pay if he's really that interested.
That makes more sense in my head but I'd be unwilling to fork out for a meal with someone who asked me if I didn't know him very well.

With my ex, I had to pay for everything. He worked but couldn't manage his money. It got to the point where he just expected it, he'd suggest we go out and give the whole bill to me. I even paid for mine and his meal on my birthday.
I'd say that is more disgusting...

 

[Angelowl]

Heterosexual dating conventions are weird. Base everything on people's genitalia instead of more relevant facts as their economy, if it is a gift or a mutual agreement and so on? As a bisexual ladyboy I really do not like the idea of certain people being entitled to gifts and dinners simply because what a doctor said that they are supposed to be. Splitting bill is fine, taking turn works nice when you have seen each other for a while, offering to pay for special occasions such as birthdays is obviously ok. But based on what is between their legs and assuming that one person is in an economically inferior position solely because of that? Where are the feminists when you need them?

OT: I pay for the first date if I asked her out. Because obviously. You don't ask a girl out then turn around and say "shit *****, hope you brought money cos I am starving" A lot of the time the girl will insist on splitting the bill but yeah you should at least be willing to pay the bill. And all that sexism bullshit? Pull the other one mate. You do things and buy things for people you care about to show them that you care. Or do you never do anything like buy a girl flowers because if you were to spend money on her it would just make her kind of a prostitute?

Just a minor question. Does that apply to women as well where you live? That they spend money on gifts and the like on people they care about? If the answer is yes, then I agree. Not really sexist then.

But the last part. A while back there was a thread by a girl who got a newly released video game on the first date by a guy. She was seriously worried that he was expecting something in return and that he had the mentality of "spending money = relationship/sex". Which is not an unreasonable concern, with studies such as the one done in a high school where roughly half of the guys considered it acceptable to force a girl to have sex with them provided that they had spent money on her. I should add that the girls thinking the same thing was in double digits.

But it is a matter of proportion and circumstances. A boquet of flowers for someone you have been seeing for a few months, or on the first date with a total stranger? Over here in Sweden the former is being seen as a bit traditionalistic at worst, the latter would trigger warning signs in every girl I know.

 

[Caiphus]

Disgusting is a pretty harsh adjective. I'd reserve it for domestic abuse or being mean to bunnies or the last two Shrek films.

Some people will find it ungentlemanly for you not to pay for the date. And that will undoubtedly include some women. Who may get angry at you. That's how it is. I personally don't think it's an issue at all, assuming you and your girlfriend are both on roughly equal footing financially.

It should be up to you and your girlfriend, anyway, not your pal. If your girlfriend is comfortable splitting the bill, wonderful, it's nowt to do with him. If she isn't, then you should examine the reason why, and work it out with her. Still nothing to do with him, but yeah.

"Darling, I want to pay for dinner because Johnny said I should."

Now, my personal ideals out of the way, I'd still pay for a date by default. Partially because, hey, I need all the help I can get, let's be honest with each other. And partially because I got brought up to think that way. Not necessarily by my parents but by, well, growing up with that sort of thing getting drilled into you, I guess. Same is probably true of your friend, OP.

 

[Jandau]

I offer to pay on the first date, and if I see the girl isn't comfortable with someone paying for her, I suggest she pick up the tab on the next date. Granted, I generally do that when I go out for a drink or to the movies with a friend - I'd rather we take turns paying than having that awkward moment when someone is counting out the exact change, or nobody has small bills or whatever.

 

[suitepee7]

generally i'd say the one who does the asking out part should pay. but that should be in any situation, either the person who does the inviting pays, or you split the bill. i wouldn't say "hey do you want to go out to dinner? i'm poor, so you can get this right?"

 

[Angelowl]

Just a minor question. Does that apply to women as well where you live? That they spend money on gifts and the like on people they care about? If the answer is yes, then I agree. Not really sexist then.

Not really equipped to speak on behalf of my entire country but in my experience yeah. I've had girls buy me things to. I'm not talking like huge gifts or anything, just small things. Things I/they saw that made me/them think about them/me.

But the last part. A while back there was a thread by a girl who got a newly released video game on the first date by a guy.

I remember that thread. 50 bucks on a first date is weird.

She was seriously worried that he was expecting something in return and that he had the mentality of "spending money = relationship/sex". Which is not an unreasonable concern, with studies such as the one done in a high school where roughly half of the guys considered it acceptable to force a girl to have sex with them provided that they had spent money on her. I should add that the girls thinking the same thing was in double digits.

But it is a matter of proportion and circumstances. A boquet of flowers for someone you have been seeing for a few months, or on the first date with a total stranger? Over here in Sweden the former is being seen as a bit traditionalistic at worst, the latter would trigger warning signs in every girl I know.

I didn't really mean buying gifts on first dates though. If the OP had said that it was sexist against men to be expected to pay all the time there is truth to that. However he framed it as him doing women a favour which seemed disingenuous to me. In one post he says that its because women shouldn't be bought, acting like him not paying is actually somehow selfless but then immediately goes on to say "well no woman has offered to pay for me" which makes me doubt his motives.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. That made it a lot clearer. Then we have more or less the same view on the matter. I might have been a bit hostile and apologize for that. Occasionally you get to watch or read the creepy ones, who do not understand why their love interest is not interested back and explain that they have spent a lot of money on them and therefore they should be attracted back. Or the case of my best friend, he had no job and had recently dropped out of college and he begged money from his parents to take out his girlfriend (at the time) on dates despite her having a stable 100% job with decent pay. She felt entitled to that since that is how a relationship was supposed to work, the guy pays for everything and treats the girl like a "princess". He learned his lesson and stays away from girls who base their ideal relationship on Twilight.

Honestly, this whole thing should not be an issue either way. I am wary of guys who refuse to split the bill no matter what, as well as girls who gets outraged when someone suggests that they pay their share. But it is not much better with girls who get outraged when the guy offers to pay. This is something that should be decided on a case to case basis and is between those who are dating, and if they can not agree then they probably would not make a good couple.

 

[Eamar]

No, it's an outdated tradition that stems from a time when women didn't have their own money. It makes no sense now.

I'm a woman, and while I don't mind a man offering to pay if that makes him feel better, I always insist on splitting the bill. This is especially true on a first date - in a more established relationship I wouldn't mind if my partner occasionally wanted to treat me, and of course I'd do the same for him.

When I first started dating I encountered a couple of men who were really pushy about paying and just straight up wouldn't let me pay my half. I found that disrespectful, but above all I felt really uncomfortable. It felt like I "owed" them something (read: sex).

 

[Ubiquitous Duck]

I voted no on this, but I do pay for first dates.

I felt with the use of the wording 'should' a man pay on the first date? To this, I'd say no, he shouldn't have to or feel obligated to. Also, this only works in a scenario when it is a male and a female on a date.

I don't pay because of any traditional/oldschool gentleman reasoning. I personally choose to as I see it as reasonable as I asked this person to go out with me somewhere, so it is me taking them to that place. So it is my choice and me asking them, so it is on me. Therefore I pay. It also means that they won't be aggrieved if they don't like where I have taken them and would be annoyed paying for it, putting a downer on the experience (but this is just an extra thing, not the reasoning behind paying).

I have found as I got older (perhaps a coincidence, not saying it is just older people who do this) that women I have gone on a first date have often refused to let me pay for everything. So the offer of me paying solely has actually not come to fruition and I have ended up splitting.

I still offer, but I tend to get shot down now.

 

[Bertylicious]

I'm trying to imagine myself on the other end of the stick with an older version of sexual harrasment fluttershy ordering my meal for me and then basically commanding me to put my wallet away.

This is causing me to feel a complicated range of emotions. On the one hand there is something comforting about being "taken in hand" as it were, about relinquishing my free will and responsibilities to a dominant lady. On the other hand it makes me feel inadequate and ashamed.

Its probably safest to just split the check.

EDIT: I should probably mention that my relationships never started from dating. When we were going out for food we'd just alternate who picked up the tab. That's not a good comparator though because in that situation it was two people who liked each other going to place to have chat and also some food whilst a date is more like a job interview.

 

[Flutterguy]

I thought first dates you are supposed to bail on the tab?!

Relationships are about excitement after all.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Well if YOU invite her out, I figure YOU would pay for the meal.

 

[Phasmal]

"because thats what a gentlemen would so..."

you must all have forgotten that chivalry is dead.

just splitt the bill.

this way she wont start to order a dozen dishes and the magically disappear in the bathroom.

Yep. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
Don't be polite because you are man and she is woman.
Be polite to all people because you are person and they are person. <3

-

For serious now, I always split dates.
I think my boyfriend's paid for like, one of our dates- which was my birthday. So he took me out as a birthday present. So... I don't think that really counts.

That was before we had been together for ages anyway, when we still had `his money` and `my money`. Now we just kind of have `our money`.
Though when boyfriend was unemployed and I had more money than him, I used to give him the money before we went into the place, because he was worried people would think he was a cheapskate. (And the more I can avoid speaking with other human beings the better, so it was win-win).

 

[Cerebrawl]

As a man who was deeply inspired by chivalry when I was growing up... I used to always pay. But some girls will take offense or be suspicious. I've learned to go "so do you want to split the tab?" while making it obvious that I'm about to pay for it otherwise(pull up the wallet, get out the bills for the full sum, or the debit card), and if she's looking undecisive I'll just say "you can pay for the next one if you want".

 

[Monsterfurby]

I always ask "Do you want me to pay for this?". That way I can if that's what she wants or she can chose to treat me instead.

Ultimately its not whats important. What is important is that SOMEONE pays for it if the night was worth it for both people involved and that usually isn't decided at the table.

THIS! I generally think that trying to resort to subtext and conventions on etiquette is detrimental to a relationship when chosen over actually communicating with each other. My girlfriend trained me quite thoroughly to think more pragmatically than that.

 

[Alexsi]

Not paying for the date is fine. Assuming that it makes you a better person to default to not paying for the date is disgusting. If you're going for equality, then you stick to logical considerations:

Which of you is wealthier?
Who asked and who accepted for the date?
Who picked the restaurant or film?

If you're the asker, picker of establishment, and/or wealthier party then you should probably begin with offering to pay. Deciding your choice of action uniformly based upon defining every party you could date as 'the female I am on a date with' is significantly more sexist than what is ultimately an act of generosity... functionally, if you want to decide as equal parties, the course of action is this:

Consider who should pay for it via a variety of factors, none of which is gender.
If yourself, begin by offering to pay; if your partner, ask how she would like to have it paid.
Work something out, then look back to ensure the decision is based upon a compromise between your desires rather than assumptions of philosophy or tradition.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Dutch on the first date is fine. Hell, Dutch on every date is fine. It really depends on the people involved.

If you want to cover all your bases, offer. If she declines and indicates a desire to pay her half, don't push the issue.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I think you could interpret it as being anti-female as well since it probably originated from the mindset that men are generally the breadwinners and have higher paying jobs and thus more money, whereas women are the weaker sex that needs to be protected and provided for. Even though women may benefit from it, the justification for it could be seen as offensive towards them.

Yes, I know. The gesture has its origins there. However, the reactions that the OP was talking about (men being called disgusting for not paying a bill) is an example of sexism against men.

Speaking of sexism inherent in polite gestures, I have a male friend who wanted to open and hold doors for women, but got called sexist for it. His response was to open and hold doors for everyone no matter their age, sex, or anything else. He said that it couldn't be sexist if he treated everyone the same - and he was right. Now he just comes off as extremely polite, and he still gets to open and hold doors for women (and everyone else).

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

Female here
I don't expect the guys I go out with to pay for me, I prefer splitting the bill.
If they really insist, then I'll let them. (some guys take that really seriously and get offended/hurt when you want to split the bill, which is why this topic is here in the first place). If I invited you, knowing you don't have any money, I'll pay.

 

[Madkipz]

This is a subject I've debated with my friends at length, when a friend stated that a guy should pay for a woman on dates. After I told him I didn't do that with my current girlfriend and I didn't do that for my first date which he found even more shocking, he accused me of not being a gentleman. My reasoning behind not paying for a girl is a case of sexism. while I'd never bang home to anyone that they shouldn't pay for a date, I chose not to due to the fact that a relationship should be built on equality and that old tradition is kind of starting it on the wrong foot. The reason I thought about this again is because I was watching a UK show called 'First Dates' in which a man insists he will pay for the woman as if he doesn't it's disgusting. Now Escapists, what is your view?

For me it depends on who initiated the date. If I was seeking someone to have a social time with and asked someone to give me a night of their time then I naturally expect myself to be paying.