Poll: (Another) feminism discussion

[Smeatza]

snip

It was a case of yes we call racism in games racism but few seem to actually care. I just can't think of anything that would actually prove that position.

I have an example.

Dead Island, a game that contained very intense, very obvious racial stereotyping, but all the media cared about was some lines of code buried in the game's scripting that read "feminist whore."

The issue of racism was literally shouting at the players and the media, but they ignored it and chose to actively seek out a gender issue.
Why?
Maybe because people care more about sexism than racism, maybe.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

I do not think it is possible to have sexism within fiction that has any meaning outside of the fiction itself. A game filled with sexism isn't a template on how to live your real life, it's a template for you to do some virtual things you wouldn't normally do in real life. Infact, under these circumstances i think it important to have MORE of this kind of thing, for both genders. Live out your fantasy in the virtual world and maybe you won't be such a twat in the real world

 

[NoeL]

What's your point? That women strive to look like ridiculously proportioned cartoon representations? I don't think that's true...

No my point is that being offended by ridiculous proportions in a cartoon which goes for that art style is stupid.

So you've gone from saying it's ok to present female characters as over-the-top sex objects because women want to be sexy like that, to saying that they're stupid for taking offense to the over-the-top sexed-up depictions of women in games... ok, if that's what you're going with...

Fair point. In that case, when was the last time you saw a woman wearing a contemporary clothing style equivalent of Ivy? Fact is you won't see many, because it's not considered tasteful to show that much skin.

You'd be surprised.

Would I? Would I really?

I've been over this in other comments. There's nothing wrong with writing a sexy character and designing them to look sexy. But all too often we have "sexless" characters that are tarted up like prostitutes for no other reason than to give the guy something to look at. None of the other characters seem to notice that their tits are hanging out of their top. This prioritises the character as eye candy - a sex object - above an actual person, and breaks immersion for every game that's somewhat modeled after the real world (including "cartoony" things like WoW).

So what? No but so frigging what? If a character is wearing sexy clothing, so what?! You don't need to be a horny hooker to like sexy clothes.

And it doesn't prioritize anything unless YOU want it to. If you're too shallow and get stuck at staring at tits that's not my problem.

Answer me - and be honest - would you in any way be put off playing a game where the protagonist looks like this?

Spoiler

Would that be somewhat distracting for you, and potentially cause you to enjoy the game that little bit less?

I have no idea what you mean by "fly by" but I'm pretty sure you've completely misunderstood me.

Not at all. Let me quote you: snipped because I know what I wrote

A: You said that what changed your mind was racism
B: You said that if games are racist it's being seen as racist.
C: You said, so why act any different with sexism?

Since B is false, and should be "Games are only seen as racist if over the top and trying to pander to racists but are not if they are being racist the same way games are sexist" following C's logic, there is no sexism issue.

If racism changed your mind once, it should again, no?

Yes, you misunderstood me a little bit. I wasn't implying that a game is only racist if it's recognised as such by the majority of people and there's a public outcry about it, I was saying a piece of media that had a negative or derogatory depiction of another race would be identified as racist (and in the few examples of this happening in mainstream games (the examples given earlier were some modern military shooters and a character from Deus Ex) it HAS been identified as racist). Unless you're implying there's a whole swath of racially derogatory games/movies/tv etc. that NO ONE has pegged for being racist your argument doesn't really work. There can certainly be cases where the consumer just doesn't give a shit that the racism exists, but that doesn't make it NOT racist. And since we're using racism as an analogy, it would stand to reason that games being identified as sexist by the same metric (as is the case with many claims today) are indeed sexist.

That was equal parts redundant and offensive. As I said earlier (either to you or someone else - I've posted a shitload in this thread and repeated myself several times already) marketing to a particular demographic isn't inherently bad. What IS bad is when you derogate the "out-group" to appeal to the "in-group". For example, if Sony decided to market the PS4 by making derogatory comments about Xbone owners, the fact that Sony fanboys might LOVE that campaign doesn't make it ok to do. Likewise, it's not ethical to portray women in a manner they deem derogatory just because it may be seen favourably by men (at least those that don't care too much about what women think, anyway). Can you see how that's quite different to making the protagonist a male with a medium build, brown hair and masculine features in order to appeal to what men tend to want to identify with?

There is no derogating of anyone. Games are not insulting women. Portraying women as sexy is not "derogatory". Women being targeted by bad guys is also not "derogatory" either. What games do is make the MEN shine out, but there is a difference between portraying men as exceptional and women as shit. Sexiness =/= shit. If all people have is "the hero is often men" and "women are sexualized" there is no case here.

And now we've come right back to where we started. "Video game sexiness" = trashy prostitute whore = shit. THAT'S the derogation, and if you bothered to TALK to women instead of insisting they're "stupid" you might have learned that.

 

[KOMega]

I think too many people equate sexism with "looking too sexy" or "wearing not enough clothes".
While those can be products of a objectified character, they are not the problem itself.
A few people already addressed this, but if the character feels like a person with a believable personalty then it is alright.

However I can understand it if people also wish to see more females in normally male roles and vice-versa. I think the problem there is not to yell at developers to add a tiny bow on the characters head of declare their character is female, but to:
1) convince the higher-ups (that probably have no direct connection to the actual making of the game, but still have a lot of influence towards it) that it is OKAY to have females in main roles or whatever roles the dev. wants.

2) encourage more females into the gaming industry. This one I think is the important one. Can females get into the gaming industry with no troubles pertaining to their gender? Are there any females who want to get into the gaming industry?

Assuming the gaming industry is like a boys treehouse club, do females even want to want to enter the gaming industry? Because if they don't we can't solve the whole thing ourselves. Especially since it concerns them the most apparently.

 

[ItsNotRudy]

It's funny how a giant community of users (namely, the gaming community) is more active in debate over pixel women than caring over real world gender equality. It's the most stupid and funny thing at the same time.

 

[generals3]

So you've gone from saying it's ok to present female characters as over-the-top sex objects because women want to be sexy like that, to saying that they're stupid for taking offense to the over-the-top sexed-up depictions of women in games... ok, if that's what you're going with...

sex OBJECTS?! Were we talking about that Japanese rape game now? Because i thought not. I never said objects, the word "object" is only used by people who do not know the definition of "object" in this context.

Would I? Would I really?

I have been to a festival just this holiday and yes the mantra "more skin = better" was followed by many women. Now i don't know how a rl version of ivy's clothing is even supposed to look like but the idea that women don't like to wear sexed up clothes suggests a lack of observation.

Answer me - and be honest - would you in any way be put off playing a game where the protagonist looks like this?

Spoiler

Would that be somewhat distracting for you, and potentially cause you to enjoy the game that little bit less?

I wouldn't like it because i like my protagonists to look bad-ass but I wouldn't go full self-victimization and whine about "sexusm". I'd just realize i'm not the target. And the distraction isn't about sexualization as much as the fact i truly wouldn't like staring at it all the time. When i play MMO's i also try to pick the factions/races i would mind staring at all the time the least.

And like i said: if you can't see past it, it's YOUR problem. In the example you gave me it would be MY problem. But it wouldn't be a "general problem".

Yes, you misunderstood me a little bit. I wasn't implying that a game is only racist if it's recognised as such by the majority of people and there's a public outcry about it, I was saying a piece of media that had a negative or derogatory depiction of another race would be identified as racist (and in the few examples of this happening in mainstream games (the examples given earlier were some modern military shooters and a character from Deus Ex) it HAS been identified as racist). Unless you're implying there's a whole swath of racially derogatory games/movies/tv etc. that NO ONE has pegged for being racist your argument doesn't really work. There can certainly be cases where the consumer just doesn't give a shit that the racism exists, but that doesn't make it NOT racist. And since we're using racism as an analogy, it would stand to reason that games being identified as sexist by the same metric (as is the case with many claims today) are indeed sexist.

Here's the thing though. You were trying to appeal to the idea "If you would consider X racist why not Y sexist?".
I don't recognize C&C Generals, CoD, EVE online (where the black faction are conveniently ex slaves), and so on as racist. So where do we go now?

And now we've come right back to where we started. "Video game sexiness" = trashy prostitute whore = shit. THAT'S the derogation, and if you bothered to TALK to women instead of insisting they're "stupid" you might have learned that.

Video game sexiness = video game sexiness. Unless i missed the huge amount of games where all the women ARE (as in actually ARE not as in "you don't like their clothing style and decide to judge them as such) trashy prostitutes.

And i'm insisting women are stupid now? Care to quote that? Only thing i called stupid is feeling offended by an art style which shows ridiculous proportions. And i would add especially so with Dragon's Crown which also showed ridiculous proportion for male characters.

You know what i would do if there was a game where men have huge dicks and wear only strings (to go to an epic extreme)? I'd lol. Yes i'd lol. That, for me, is funny shizzle. Heck that picture about larry croft made me smile too. But maybe i'm just not oversensitive enough.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I do not think it is possible to have sexism within fiction that has any meaning outside of the fiction itself. A game filled with sexism isn't a template on how to live your real life, it's a template for you to do some virtual things you wouldn't normally do in real life. Infact, under these circumstances i think it important to have MORE of this kind of thing, for both genders. Live out your fantasy in the virtual world and maybe you won't be such a twat in the real world

It isn't really an issue about how it affects people or whether it influences them. That something that is debated in and of itself, but it does feed into an already present, sexist culture.

Personally, I agree, I don't think media has such direct influencing affects on people. IT certainly won't make a person a criminal (GTA) or brutal murderer (hitman) but in those examples it does feed into a very pro-violent culture (we're in an era of revenge fantasies and vigilante justice fantasies... people crave blood but claim to do so in the interest of personal justice). You won't win anyone over but the most unhinged individuals by making your PC the most callous and cold blooded of maniacs... though it can be morbidly fascinating (Hot Line Miami) and you most certainly won't make them killers.

Likewise, you won't MAKE people bigots or sexists by including bigoted or sexist material. But it FEEDS the culture that is already there. This isn't kosher. We don't entertain the fantasies of rapists and paedophiles (outside of porn), why should we entertain the fantasies of of racists and sexists. (Unfortunately we do and frequently entertain the fantasies of callously violent individuals, but that is a separate issue)

Perhaps a little less extreme would be homophobia. Games rarely (in mainstream gaming) have notable anti-gay subtext and we most certainly don't condone games that reinforce anti-gay attitudes (a separate issue is gay representation in games, which ties into the way we have a predominately straight white male character roster across the entire medium). So why do we have such prevalence in racist and sexist attitudes in games? There is no coincidence that the gaming community has an obnoxious and offensive population and who are also extremely vocal WITHIN the communities of offending games (in forums and Live in games). This is their last bastion in the entertainment world, outside of the seedy underbelly of the internet, where they can indulge their fantasies... and it DOES affect people.

There is already a notable homophobic element in the gaming community, we don't feed it and rightly so. We also have a notable racist and sexist element, but we do feed it; and people want to defend it? If your reasoning is to be taken to it's logical conclusion, then games that degrade or demonise homosexuals should also be safe from scrutiny in mass media too, and we should let the perverse among us indulge in their fantasy from the same stores kids and socially well adjusted individuals use too. Since it's after all, just fantasy. It's a slippery slope fallacy and I'm sure most people would actively prevent it, but the point remains... who draws the line?


If homophobes, racists and sexists want to make games, power to them. What they do within the realms of fantasy is a-ok with me. Society does not like it and it will be received as well as a flaming bag of shit and will probably never see public release outside of the regressive dens of the net. So why do we (the gamer community) give the derogatory subtext present in games RIGHT NOW, ON YOUR HARDRIVE/CONSOLE, a free pass? Because it doesn't harm anyone? Or because it doesn't harm you?

My money is on the latter.

Captcha: Berlin Wall. Captcha is talking in metaphor now? That's disturbing.

 

[Charlie Chitty]

I'm not really well thought of around these parts because I don't agree with feminism in video games at all. Feminism and women's rights should be more focused in or more pressing matters. In some countries, arranged marriage is fine. A forced cliterodectomy might be the norm.

How is that ok?
Why do feminists take issue with video games when there are real world issues that still need to be resolved?
When attention is focused in on these incredibly trivial matters such as a female protagonist's breast size, cleavage or the way they are portrayed in certain scenes I can't help but wonder if feminism in the western world really has a place when we are convinced that women are the oppressed minority in the video game industry and yet it's ok for a Destructoid writer to be fired for asking Felicia Day a question.

Also, feminists are always full of hypocrisy. I can underastand that Anita Sarkeesian may say that a helpless woman in a video game is all about a male power fantasy. I can ride with that. But then she attacks Bayonetta. Strong, female protag. What does Anita think? "Oh, it's appealing to male fetishes for dominating women. The patriarchy strikes again!"

Having your cake and eating it.

There is no way to satisfy a feminist without becoming some sort of gender-apologist.

 

[Vegosiux]

"Video game sexiness" = trashy prostitute whore = shit.

Wait wait wait.

Spoiler: What would be trashy about her? She's even a bit of an ice queen.

Spoiler: Or her, is this trashy to you?

Spoiler: How about her?

I find them all rather sexy, though, as characters. And they're in videogames. And they're not trashy prostitute lookalikes.

Now, since I can see "sexy" outside the "bimbo" stereotype, I have to ask: Am I wrong to see women as sexy even when (or in fact, especially when) they're not trashy and arguing that "sexy" does not necessarily equal "trashy" and the two really shouldn't be used interchangeably?

Who's, in fact, being problematic here, the people who can't see female beauty and sex-appeal unless it's shoved into their face with over the top cleavages; or those of us who actually manage to see sexy women as, you know, people, as opposed to a walking pair of tits?

 

[broca]

OP: i can't really answer the poll, as i don't know which definition of sexism is used. Could you give a definition or link to one?

 

[McMarbles]

I don't even get the point of the poll.

The problem exists. It exists whether we acknowledge it or whether we bury our heads in the sands and sing "La la la la everything's fine la la la..."

 

[Erttheking]

I'm just going to say this and leave.

A female character who happens to look sexy is ok.

http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/characters/5/39518.jpg

A female character who's sole defining characteristic is over the top sex appeal isn't.

http://vgresearcher.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/ivy_valentine.png

It doesn't help that the medium is massively oversaturated with them. If it was just a case of one or two here and there, I wouldn't mind at all. But there are just so MANY of them.

 

[Vegosiux]

I'm just going to say this and leave.

A female character who happens to look sexy is ok.

http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/characters/5/39518.jpg

Hey hey hey HEY! I brought up Mitsuru first! *hiss hiss*

Nah, just kidding, I'm actually happy to see someone agree that "sexy" isn't necessarily bad, and brought the same particular redhead up as an example.

 

[Erttheking]

I'm just going to say this and leave.

A female character who happens to look sexy is ok.

http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/characters/5/39518.jpg

Hey hey hey HEY! I brought up Mitsuru first! *hiss hiss*

Nah, just kidding, I'm actually happy to see someone agree that "sexy" isn't necessarily bad, and brought the same particular redhead up as an example.

Yeah your post basically made me want to bring up the point. A character who looks attractive isn't bad. A character who runs into battle with DDs and a chainmail bikini...more of the problem here.

 

[generals3]

I'm just going to say this and leave.

A female character who happens to look sexy is ok.

http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/characters/5/39518.jpg

A female character who's sole defining characteristic is over the top sex appeal isn't.

http://vgresearcher.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/ivy_valentine.png

It doesn't help that the medium is massively oversaturated with them. If it was just a case of one or two here and there, I wouldn't mind at all. But there are just so MANY of them.

As far as i know both women you showed have no personality or any defining characteristic but their looks at all.

Let me illustrate:

Spoiler

Do you know what the difference between both women is? The first one was an obvious fan service provided to us by EA and the second was how Westwood used to do it. But do you know how they DONT differ? Personality and role wise. They both did the same: brief you on your missions.

 

[chadachada123]

I just don't understand why the game that is a PARODY and EXAGGERATION of everything fantasy is getting flack, and not the plethora of other games that play it totally straight.

Gears of War in regards to men, and Dead or Alive with women. These are good examples of objectification. That many games mirror these and act completely serious is a potential issue.

Dragon's Crown? A complete non-issue, and an example of people completely missing the point. It is an absurdist piece as far as the art goes, and should not be treated seriously as it does not take itself seriously.

 

[Erttheking]

I just don't understand why the game that is a PARODY and EXAGGERATION of everything fantasy is getting flack, and not the plethora of other games that play it totally straight.

Gears of War in regards to men, and Dead or Alive with women. These are good examples of objectification. That many games mirror these and act completely serious is a potential issue.

Dragon's Crown? A complete non-issue, and an example of people completely missing the point. It is an absurdist piece as far as the art goes, and should not be treated seriously as it does not take itself seriously.

I think mainly the same problem that Bulletstorm had. It's playing everything straight and claiming to be ironic.

 

[ShiningAmber]

It is a problem. If the tables were reversed to the same degrees, there would be a far larger uproar in my opinion. I fully believe when the vast majority of men say that it's hardly a problem/no problem to the large amounts of women standing up and saying it is a problem, well, that really says something.

 

[TurkeyProphet]

I tend to see it this way. Videogames do not shape our perceptions of women. Women, ones with flesh and blood and boobs that is, form our perception of women. Any sexist ideas I hold (and there are a few) come from my interactions with real women not from playing Tomb Raider. Bayonetta has about as much impact on my attitude to women as Alice in Wonderland has on my attitude to rabbits. Media can have certain impacts I suppose for example people see Jaws and become afraid of beaches but that's only because they have no dealings with actual sharks. If I treat women like whores it's because they act like them.

My other concern is one that extends to the wider feminist movement and that is that it's concerned more with problems than solutions. They look to statistics to tell them about generalisations they don't like and then look for people to blame for these perceived problems. There aren't enough women in some sector? Then get some to go and be there. Don't complain to me about it. Go and make a game that people want to play with your preferred female character. If there really is a problem stopping you then start bitching but definitely not before there has been a big effort made and it is clear it failed because something with a vagina was involved.