Poll: (Another) feminism discussion

[Jinxzy]

Games don't need less fanservice, they need more MANSERVICE!

Yeah! lets go drink our manly Dr. Pepper 10 and spray ourselves with ax before we put in [insert manly game here]! Manly men gaming. Bro-five!

I meant it as in fanservice for women, hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus, more than one male character design etc. Then again since you have no problem with character design or role you could still enjoy the game for the gameplay

Oh thought you were being sarcastic, like many man game grrr. Still made me laugh.
I don't know how I would feel about that. When you said "hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus" I instantly thought of like chip and dale dancers in the game and my face when to horror. Bleh I'm not a butt person, yet in the new DMC dante went full nude. Except for the covenant items floating by his man parts, thinking about it now no one said anything about him being naked.

Although that might have a nice educational effect, I'd still strongly prefer less female sexualization to more male sexualization.

Sure you might prefer it but it would have to be equal, say hello to man booty shots! Thought it would be pretty funny to see a game open up with a nice butt shot and slowly pan up to the face and it's a guy.

 

[CloudAtlas]

One question people need to ask, is fanservice sexist? Take Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite, is she exploited and sexist before the devs shrank her boobs? I never played it so I don't know if she rubbed them in the camera, but I didn't think their size was an issue. They weren't even comically huge like plenty of others, but would it be more sexist if they were? Bayonetta is super sexualized, but she's also a powerful woman so does that make it okay?

I'm sorry but I'd rather not go down the rabbit hole of judging what exactly constitutes as sexism and what not. Now I haven't played Bioshock either, but if some devs noted during development that Elizabeth's boobs seemed oddly big, and the studio heads agreed, I'd assume there was something to it. I guess "Wow, she got a really nice rack" was just not the kind of reaction they wanted to elicit for this character, and just looking at screenshots, it's not hard to imagine why.

Everyone has a different line for that and mine is pretty far out. It does get drawn with games like The Witcher 2. Beating your wife is just plain sexist, I don't care of it's world building and if someone is turned on by that they are a sick person. I heard about the card collection and didn't like it but with games like that I just go that's not for me and play something else. If I feel the rest of the experience will outweigh the bad I'll play it.

The card collection was in The Witcher 1, but yea, if that didn't qualify as objectifying, nothing does. I'm wondering, though, if the game equivalent of Django Unchained would have appeal? Sort of the ultimate feminist revenge fantasy, set in world which does really suck for women.

Also why can't women enjoy escapist adventures as men? The question could be turned around as well to ask why men have an aversion to playing women. I don't have that dissonance when playing either gender so I don't understand either .

I don't know if this question is targeted towards me, because I never suggested anything in this direction. I just said that, by their own accounts, they can't escape as easily if they're frequently reminded that they're worth less due to their gender.
I'm enjoying playing female protagonists just fine, so I can't really expect the reverse to be untrue. Still, it is, of course, easier to identify with someone closer to yourself, everything else equal, so if someone prefers protagonists to be of their own gender, I can hardly blame her/him. And it would be nice if everyone had the chance to do so.

Although that might have a nice educational effect, I'd still strongly prefer less female sexualization to more male sexualization.

Sure you might prefer it but it would have to be equal, say hello to man booty shots! Thought it would be pretty funny to see a game open up with a nice butt shot and slowly pan up to the face and it's a guy.[/quote]

Kronar is by far my favourite barbarian, so I guess I'm not as sensitive as I might come across after all, just... keep in the kind of games where it belongs.

 

[Angus]

Is it your feelings or you supporting someone else? They can point out things you agree with you can change your mind, opinions don't have to be set in stone.

For example, I've always been a fan of dark, gritty worlds, worlds that feel "real". And if those worlds are fantasy worlds, women tend to be treated badly. The Witcher 2 comes to mind here, where, for example, some guy in a bar jokes about beating up his wife. Now you can defend this portrayal with, well, historically women usually did have it badly, so that's just realistic, and I guess that's true. And I would always have defended those games for this very reason.

In my opionin THAT is the actual trope. Its the whole irony with feminism- its also based on a trope that isnt really true- that women were continously opressed, and had much less freedom in their lives than men.

Take a Kurdish village in a traditional more feudal setting, these still exist in modern times in more remote parts:
As a woman you get married against your will sometimes. But this also goes for men, when the family wants to build alliances, it doesent matter wich gender you are.

As a woman you can get killed for adultery- but this is also true for men.

As a woman you might get locked up inside more- but as a man you might be forced to fight for the family, or be sacrificed in a clan-feud as payment for another man getting killed in a powerstruggle between clans.



Another interesting fact is that men that commited domestic violence, or even was subject to this often had harsh punishments in traditional christian societies as well- its never been seen as "acceptable"- even in muslim societies, it was really just ok for the purpose of procreation(if the woman denied sex) because the clan demanded heirs.



Game of thrones is a more realistic portrayal of these things. Sure Sansa Stark is not in a position of power, and has to marry Tyrion Lannister- but he also has to marry her to secure an alliance. In societies were women were "opressed" their situation was not that much freer than a mans, even if mens duties were more dramatic.

 

[CloudAtlas]

[everything]

You have to be kidding. Are you seriously suggesting that, historically, women had it just as good as men in general?

 

[Angus]

[everything]

You have to be kidding. Are you seriously suggesting that, historically, women had it just as good as men in general?

Can you actually refute my claims instead of acting like what Im saying is ridicolous?

Find a time period where women in general truly
had it completely horrid while being a man was totally swell.

Heck, just look at Africa right now. We hear all the time that "rape is used as a weapon" i the Kongos, whats often left out is the fact that the men also get raped and shamed(often worse,
because now theyre also seen as weak) or just simply killed.


That we both wouldnt know about mens equal hardships without extra research, sort of proves the theory of men being seen in society as disposable.

 

[TehCookie]

I'm sorry but I'd rather not go down the rabbit hole of judging what exactly constitutes as sexism and what not. Now I haven't played Bioshock either, but if some devs noted during development that Elizabeth's boobs seemed oddly big, and the studio heads agreed, I'd assume there was something to it. I guess "Wow, she got a really nice rack" was just not the kind of reaction they wanted to elicit for this character, and just looking at screenshots, it's not hard to imagine why.

If you're going to complain about sexist games you have to define what you think is sexist and why. Or to avoid people who take the literal definition complain about games that are offensive since people can't tell you that you're not offended by that (however they may tell you to stop being offended).

It wasn't the dev team who wanted to change it, it was the fans complaining after they saw the trailer. From the devs: "In terms of her body type, I think certainly people on the Internet have spent way more time thinking about Elizabeth's chest than I have. It's something I've barely thought about... It's disappointing when [Elizabeth's appearance] becomes a focus for conversation because that was never my intent and it's sort of a disincentive. I'd much rather talk about what she's going through as a person." [footnote]http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/01/05/focus-on-bioshock-infinites-story-not-its-boobs[/footnote] Do boobs make people unable to take women seriously? Going back to my first post in the thread, sometimes the games aren't sexist but the fans make them so.

I don't know if this question is targeted towards me, because I never suggested anything in this direction. I just said that, by their own accounts, they can't escape as easily if they're frequently reminded that they're worth less due to their gender.
I'm enjoying playing female protagonists just fine, so I can't really expect the reverse to be untrue. Still, it is, of course, easier to identify with someone closer to yourself, everything else equal, so if someone prefers protagonists to be of their own gender, I can hardly blame her/him. And it would be nice if everyone had the chance to do so.

You said women were denied their power fantasy and escapism. Unless you think the MC has to be a women for a woman, male MCs can still fulfill that. It's nice to have the MC be your own gender but I don't see it as a requirement, and if someone does they're only limiting themselves. I haven't come across numerous games where women are second class citizens. Then again that fits in with dark and gritty, it doesn't fit into the games I like which are about friendship or kickass action.

Although that might have a nice educational effect, I'd still strongly prefer less female sexualization to more male sexualization.

Sure you might prefer it but it would have to be equal, say hello to man booty shots! Thought it would be pretty funny to see a game open up with a nice butt shot and slowly pan up to the face and it's a guy.

Kronar is by far my favourite barbarian, so I guess I'm not as sensitive as I might come across after all, just... keep in the kind of games where it belongs.

That's my view right there.

Games don't need less fanservice, they need more MANSERVICE!

Yeah! lets go drink our manly Dr. Pepper 10 and spray ourselves with ax before we put in [insert manly game here]! Manly men gaming. Bro-five!

I meant it as in fanservice for women, hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus, more than one male character design etc. Then again since you have no problem with character design or role you could still enjoy the game for the gameplay

Oh thought you were being sarcastic, like many man game grrr. Still made me laugh.
I don't know how I would feel about that. When you said "hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus" I instantly thought of like chip and dale dancers in the game and my face when to horror. Bleh I'm not a butt person, yet in the new DMC dante went full nude. Except for the covenant items floating by his man parts, thinking about it now no one said anything about him being naked.

Well how do you prefer your manly man games, God of War or Muscle March? I want games for all tastes, manly games included.

I don't think anyone cared about Donte. A lot of people hate him, there were more fun parts of the joke about (fuck you) and they were mourning the old Dante.

 

[CloudAtlas]

[everything]

You have to be kidding. Are you seriously suggesting that, historically, women had it just as good as men in general?

Can you actually refute my claims instead of acting like what Im saying is ridicolous?

No. I'm not your history teacher. For starters, since you seem to think so lowly about feminism, why don't you start with some research about the feminist movement, how it came to be, what they wanted, and such? There actually were reasons, you know.

 

[CloudAtlas]

I'm sorry but I'd rather not go down the rabbit hole of judging what exactly constitutes as sexism and what not. Now I haven't played Bioshock either, but if some devs noted during development that Elizabeth's boobs seemed oddly big, and the studio heads agreed, I'd assume there was something to it. I guess "Wow, she got a really nice rack" was just not the kind of reaction they wanted to elicit for this character, and just looking at screenshots, it's not hard to imagine why.

If you're going to complain about sexist games you have to define what you think is sexist and why. Or to avoid people who take the literal definition complain about games that are offensive since people can't tell you that you're not offended by that (however they may tell you to stop being offended).

That's why I'm more comfortable with complaining about sexualization & bad character design than about sexism. It's simply easier to argue. At least for me, with my limited understanding of the issue.

It wasn't the dev team who wanted to change it, it was the fans complaining after they saw the trailer. From the devs: "In terms of her body type, I think certainly people on the Internet have spent way more time thinking about Elizabeth's chest than I have. It's something I've barely thought about... It's disappointing when [Elizabeth's appearance] becomes a focus for conversation because that was never my intent and it's sort of a disincentive. I'd much rather talk about what she's going through as a person." [footnote]http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/01/05/focus-on-bioshock-infinites-story-not-its-boobs[/footnote] Do boobs make people unable to take women seriously? Going back to my first post in the thread, sometimes the games aren't sexist but the fans make them so.

What's the issue here? Increasing the bust size of a character means sexualizing her more, sure, whether it's intentional or not. So if you want to focus the audience on the character, not the boobs, you're better off making them smaller. They simply draw less attention.
And I can see why a fair number of people didn't find large boobs on Elizabeth fitting since she otherwise looks like a pretty young girl.

You said women were denied their power fantasy and escapism. Unless you think the MC has to be a women for a woman, male MCs can still fulfill that. It's nice to have the MC be your own gender but I don't see it as a requirement, and if someone does they're only limiting themselves. I haven't come across numerous games where women are second class citizens. Then again that fits in with dark and gritty, it doesn't fit into the games I like which are about friendship or kickass action.

I said some women said that their experience was tarnished, but not necessarily because the protagonist is a female, but because of how female characters were treated in these worlds or by the game itself (and you can probably add revealing attire that doesn't fit to the overall tone of the game here). But if you can rarely play as your own gender, I guess that's a real bummer too. But, well, what should I say, I have to rely on empathy here, I'm a guy, straight and white on top of that, I'm as privileged as I could be, regarding games, I couldn't tell from own experience.

 

[TehCookie]

That's why I'm more comfortable with complaining about sexualization & bad character design than about sexism. It's simply easier to argue. At least for me, with my limited understanding of the issue.

I have two completely different view concerning sexualization and sexism. Sexism is bad, but my view on sexualization is a boys will be boys, they can have some games as long as I get some too. Diversity is good.

It wasn't the dev team who wanted to change it, it was the fans complaining after they saw the trailer. From the devs: "In terms of her body type, I think certainly people on the Internet have spent way more time thinking about Elizabeth's chest than I have. It's something I've barely thought about... It's disappointing when [Elizabeth's appearance] becomes a focus for conversation because that was never my intent and it's sort of a disincentive. I'd much rather talk about what she's going through as a person." Do boobs make people unable to take women seriously? Going back to my first post in the thread, sometimes the games aren't sexist but the fans make them so.

What's the issue here? Increasing the bust size of a character means sexualizing her more, sure, whether it's intentional or not. So if you want to focus the audience on the character, not the boobs, you're better off making them smaller. They simply draw less attention.
And I can see why a fair number of people didn't find large boobs on Elizabeth fitting since she otherwise looks like a pretty young girl.

A) Why can't people take characters with boobs seriously
B) Why is sexy bad?
C) Why are boobs distracting people in the first place?
D) When is it the developers fault of sexualizing a character or the fandoms and does that make a difference?

I said some women said that their experience was tarnished, but not necessarily because the protagonist is a female, but because of how female characters were treated in these worlds or by the game itself (and you can probably add revealing attire that doesn't fit to the overall tone of the game here). But if you can rarely play as your own gender, I guess that's a real bummer too. But, well, what should I say, I have to rely on empathy here, I'm a guy, straight and white on top of that, I'm as privileged as I could be, regarding games, I couldn't tell from own experience.

Some men say they like cheap fanservice (and I'll avoid actual sexism in games), so why should we ignore them for one other group? As for the women why do they play those games instead of ones that don't offend them?

 

[Angus]

[everything]

You have to be kidding. Are you seriously suggesting that, historically, women had it just as good as men in general?

Can you actually refute my claims instead of acting like what Im saying is ridicolous?

No. I'm not your history teacher. For starters, since you seem to think so lowly about feminism, why don't you start with some research about the feminist movement, how it came to be, what they wanted, and such? There actually were reasons, you know.

Neither of these refute any of my claims.

If you dont believe in my arguments I can look up my old sources, and some modern statistics from the statistical bureau of Sweden. We are a very equalized country, with a 3% feminist party, so it suprised me a lot when a friend told me the official statistics for suicide were 70-80% men as victims.

Im not trolling when I give you these facts man/miss.

 

[CloudAtlas]

[everything]

You have to be kidding. Are you seriously suggesting that, historically, women had it just as good as men in general?

Can you actually refute my claims instead of acting like what Im saying is ridicolous?

No. I'm not your history teacher. For starters, since you seem to think so lowly about feminism, why don't you start with some research about the feminist movement, how it came to be, what they wanted, and such? There actually were reasons, you know.

Neither of these refute any of my claims.

If you dont believe in my arguments I can look up my old sources, and some modern statistics from the statistical bureau of Sweden. We are a very equalized country, with a 3% feminist party, so it suprised me a lot when a friend told me the official statistics for suicide were 70-80% men as victims.

Im not trolling when I give you these facts man/miss.

I don't know what you want to prove with modern statistics from Sweden, one of the most equal countries in the world, about the general situation of women, globally, in past or present, but go ahead...

 

[CloudAtlas]

It wasn't the dev team who wanted to change it, it was the fans complaining after they saw the trailer. From the devs: "In terms of her body type, I think certainly people on the Internet have spent way more time thinking about Elizabeth's chest than I have. It's something I've barely thought about... It's disappointing when [Elizabeth's appearance] becomes a focus for conversation because that was never my intent and it's sort of a disincentive. I'd much rather talk about what she's going through as a person." Do boobs make people unable to take women seriously? Going back to my first post in the thread, sometimes the games aren't sexist but the fans make them so.

What's the issue here? Increasing the bust size of a character means sexualizing her more, sure, whether it's intentional or not. So if you want to focus the audience on the character, not the boobs, you're better off making them smaller. They simply draw less attention.
And I can see why a fair number of people didn't find large boobs on Elizabeth fitting since she otherwise looks like a pretty young girl.

A) Why can't people take characters with boobs seriously
B) Why is sexy bad?
C) Why are boobs distracting people in the first place?
D) When is it the developers fault of sexualizing a character or the fandoms and does that make a difference?

A) Did you mean to ask: Why can't people take characters with really big boobs seriously?
B) Sexualization is bad if it does not fit to the character you want to portray
C) Biology
D) What matters is how a message is received, if that's what you're asking me.

Some men say they like cheap fanservice (and I'll avoid actual sexism in games), so why should we ignore them for one other group? As for the women why do they play those games instead of ones that don't offend them?

I just want the other group to be less ignored. And why don't they play other games? Well, because that's just one aspect of games they otherwise like, I guess?

 

[Angus]

[everything]

You have to be kidding. Are you seriously suggesting that, historically, women had it just as good as men in general?

Can you actually refute my claims instead of acting like what Im saying is ridicolous?

No. I'm not your history teacher. For starters, since you seem to think so lowly about feminism, why don't you start with some research about the feminist movement, how it came to be, what they wanted, and such? There actually were reasons, you know.

Neither of these refute any of my claims.

If you dont believe in my arguments I can look up my old sources, and some modern statistics from the statistical bureau of Sweden. We are a very equalized country, with a 3% feminist party, so it suprised me a lot when a friend told me the official statistics for suicide were 70-80% men as victims.

Im not trolling when I give you these facts man/miss.

I don't know what you want to prove with modern statistics from Sweden, one of the most equal countries in the world, about the general situation of women, globally, in past or present, but go ahead...

What Im saying is, even in a very feminist society, we dont really care about men, theyre disposable. My main point is that 1) Men might have certain historical benefits, but also have been seen as disposable. 2) The modern feminism movement doesent really change anything, its just the old "men take care of themselves" and "women are always victims" trope all over again!

Typical swedish article on suicide issues:

http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyheter24.se%2Fnyheter%2Finrikes%2F507093-unga-tjejer-tar-livet-av-sig-med-helt-vanliga-alvedon&act=url

Actual statistics:

"män" means Men.

http://ki.se/ki/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=39494&l=sv

The discrepancy is easy to notice. If youre a man, people dont really care about you dying- its just one of many examples of issues we overlook, because heck, the issue only exists when it happens to a female.
Sure, men might get some of the spotlight sometimes, but notice the phrase "x number of women and children were hit in the blast" in newspapers. We mention women as well as children, as an extra horrible case of death.

 

[Quantum Glass]

What Im saying is, even in a very feminist society, we dont really care about men, theyre disposable. My main point is that 1) Men might have certain historical benefits, but also have been seen as disposable. 2) The modern feminism movement doesent really change anything, its just the old "men take care of themselves" and "women are always victims" trope all over again!

Typical swedish article on suicide issues:

http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyheter24.se%2Fnyheter%2Finrikes%2F507093-unga-tjejer-tar-livet-av-sig-med-helt-vanliga-alvedon&act=url

Actual statistics:

"män" means Men.

http://ki.se/ki/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=39494&l=sv

The discrepancy is easy to notice. If youre a man, people dont really care about you dying- its just one of many examples of issues we overlook, because heck, the issue only exists when it happens to a female.
Sure, men might get some of the spotlight sometimes, but notice the phrase "x number of women and children were hit in the blast" in newspapers. We mention women as well as children, as an extra horrible case of death.

Just putting this out there--suicide doesn't necessarily happen when your society views you as disposable; at least assuming there isn't something really important the rest of the world is missing about Sweden's government and it's relationship with the press. It happens when you kill yourself. People generally don't like that happening in a country, and if you called up the police or someone and explained you were going to commit suicide, I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that they'll quickly show that they disapprove of anyone, even men, offing themselves. Is suicide tragic? Yes. Is it sexist? I seriously doubt it.

As for the phrase, I can't say I've seen it in years. People talk about victims, and give statistics, but these days (In my culture at least) a civilian man dying is seen as just as tragic as a civilian woman (Obviously, children dying is on a different level.) Sure, people used to say, "Women and children first," but that was in the age of idiotic chivalry, and nobody is trying to prove anything anymore (For the most part, I mean.)

 

[CloudAtlas]

What Im saying is, even in a very feminist society, we dont really care about men, theyre disposable. My main point is that 1) Men might have certain historical benefits, but also have been seen as disposable. 2) The modern feminism movement doesent really change anything, its just the old "men take care of themselves" and "women are always victims" trope all over again!

I don't think your impression of feminism is correct. Maybe it is partly due to the circumstance that you live in one of the most equal countries in the world, so, naturally, there are fewer "serious" issues left to complain about than elsewhere, and more policies are passed that do indeed disadvantage men.
So, yes, feminists who match your description, they do exist, and quite a few of the more prominent ones certainly belong to that camp. But they are not representative of the feminist movement as a whole.

What true feminists want is equality, nothing less, nothing more. And that includes men's issues too. Your suicide example illustrates this well. Well, first of all, generally, more women then men attempt to suicide, it's just that men are much more successful with it, so this example does not really support your argument all too well.
And what are the reasons for men committing suicide? Is it really (only) because society regards them as disposable? Or could it be that, according to traditional gender roles, men are expected to do well in their jobs, to be the provider, and to fail this expectation is a good reason for suicide? Well... traditional gender roles are just one of the things feminists fight against.

But, back to topic: If you believe that, historically, women didn't have it worse, then you couldn't use the realism argument to justify a game world full of sexism. So, in a way, saying that "feminists" are wrong actually helps their cause.

 

[Angus]

What Im saying is, even in a very feminist society, we dont really care about men, theyre disposable. My main point is that 1) Men might have certain historical benefits, but also have been seen as disposable. 2) The modern feminism movement doesent really change anything, its just the old "men take care of themselves" and "women are always victims" trope all over again!

Typical swedish article on suicide issues:

http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyheter24.se%2Fnyheter%2Finrikes%2F507093-unga-tjejer-tar-livet-av-sig-med-helt-vanliga-alvedon&act=url

Actual statistics:

"män" means Men.

http://ki.se/ki/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=39494&l=sv

The discrepancy is easy to notice. If youre a man, people dont really care about you dying- its just one of many examples of issues we overlook, because heck, the issue only exists when it happens to a female.
Sure, men might get some of the spotlight sometimes, but notice the phrase "x number of women and children were hit in the blast" in newspapers. We mention women as well as children, as an extra horrible case of death.

It happens when you kill yourself. People generally don't like that happening in a country, and if you called up the police or someone and explained you were going to commit suicide, I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that they'll quickly show that they disapprove of anyone, even men, offing themselves. Is suicide tragic? Yes. Is it sexist? I seriously doubt it.

As for the phrase, I can't say I've seen it in years. People talk about victims, and give statistics, but these days (In my culture at least) a civilian man dying is seen as just as tragic as a civilian woman (Obviously, children dying is on a different level.) Sure, people used to say, "Women and children first," but that was in the age of idiotic chivalry, and nobody is trying to prove anything anymore (For the most part, I mean.)

You dont really read my argument correctly. Im not saying that men kill themselves BECAUSE they are seen as disposable(might be part of it, but its not really my argument) but that we rarely read about the massive unequality there because its not really taken as seriously when men die. Its the same with work related accidents, 90% of people dying at work are men- but thats not mentioned in the papers here. It was only when I read a blog about equality, wich MRAs basically are here, that I got to see wich gender ACTUALLY was more prone to die at work or by suicide.

Still newspapers, support groups, all of these mainly write about women(Alvedon flickorna/ the alvedon girls) or cater to women.

 

[TehCookie]

It wasn't the dev team who wanted to change it, it was the fans complaining after they saw the trailer. From the devs: "In terms of her body type, I think certainly people on the Internet have spent way more time thinking about Elizabeth's chest than I have. It's something I've barely thought about... It's disappointing when [Elizabeth's appearance] becomes a focus for conversation because that was never my intent and it's sort of a disincentive. I'd much rather talk about what she's going through as a person." Do boobs make people unable to take women seriously? Going back to my first post in the thread, sometimes the games aren't sexist but the fans make them so.

What's the issue here? Increasing the bust size of a character means sexualizing her more, sure, whether it's intentional or not. So if you want to focus the audience on the character, not the boobs, you're better off making them smaller. They simply draw less attention.
And I can see why a fair number of people didn't find large boobs on Elizabeth fitting since she otherwise looks like a pretty young girl.

A) Why can't people take characters with boobs seriously
B) Why is sexy bad?
C) Why are boobs distracting people in the first place?
D) When is it the developers fault of sexualizing a character or the fandoms and does that make a difference?

A) Did you mean to ask: Why can't people take characters with really big boobs seriously?
B) Sexualization is bad if it does not fit to the character you want to portray
C) Biology
D) What matters is how a message is received, if that's what you're asking me.

A) Yeah.
B) And if they want to make an attractive character? Sexy and personality aren't mutually exclusive.
C) That only applies to men. Though ironic that the people they're trying to cater to are the ones more annoyed by it.
D) Okay. And now I'm imagining all the fanshippings as canon, I have to go wash my brain now.

 

[Angus]

What Im saying is, even in a very feminist society, we dont really care about men, theyre disposable. My main point is that 1) Men might have certain historical benefits, but also have been seen as disposable. 2) The modern feminism movement doesent really change anything, its just the old "men take care of themselves" and "women are always victims" trope all over again!

I don't think your impression of feminism is correct. Maybe it is partly due to the circumstance that you live in one of the most equal countries in the world, so, naturally, there are fewer "serious" issues left to complain about than elsewhere, and more policies are passed that do indeed disadvantage men.
So, yes, feminists who match your description, they do exist, and quite a few of the more prominent ones certainly belong to that camp. But they are not representative of the feminist movement as a whole.

What true feminists want is equality, nothing less, nothing more. And that includes men's issues too. Your suicide example illustrates this well. Well, first of all, generally, more women then men attempt to suicide, it's just that men are much more successful with it, so this example does not really support your argument all too well.
And what are the reasons for men committing suicide?

The reason more women are "unsuccessful" is basically because there is support to be had, a society that cares if you show youre suffering physically- pretending or meekly trying is only useful if people really care.
(Im pretty sure neither of us believes that women are less able, to weak to kill themselves than men are.)

As the media example illustrates, young women using pills/alvedon was a huge issue in sweden. But the 80% of suicide victims being swedish male youths are never mentioned in those articles. Unless you specifically google "majority of suicide victims men" or look up statistical bureaus, you will rarely find anyone mentioning the ENORMOUS gender-difference.

Is it really (only) because society regards them as disposable? Or could it be that, according to traditional gender roles, men are expected to do well in their jobs, to be the provider, and to fail this expectation is a good reason for suicide? Well...
traditional gender roles are just one of the things feminists fight against.

Not male-related ones though. There are statistics starting to surface of men being the biggest group in one-sided domestic violence- as victims.
But the majority of feminist do not bother to mention, or access this information.

Mainstream Feminism is still the age old trope of female victims, and male heroes/villains.

But, back to topic: If you believe that, historically, women didn't have it worse, then you couldn't use the realism argument to justify a game world full of sexism. So, in a way, saying that "feminists" are wrong actually helps their cause.

I never said that game were realistic. But I wouldnt say it helps "their" cause either, you see, they actually strenghten the tropes they say they disapprove off. When you label women as victims for a culture that only caters to men, that these tropes are somehow victimizing women, you basically say that these trope-filled games ARE realistic.
Youre saying that women ARE weak and that its our job as men to take care of the women, because we ARE running the show.
Theres also a weird insinuation that its an actual INTENT to portray women badly.

Im frankly tired of it!

 

[CloudAtlas]

I never said that game were realistic. But I wouldnt say it helps "their" cause either, you see, they actually strenghten the tropes they say they disapprove off. When you label women as victims for a culture that only caters to men, that these tropes are somehow victimizing women, you basically say that these trope-filled games ARE realistic.
Youre saying that women ARE weak and that its our job as men to take care of the women, because we ARE running the show.
Theres also a weird insinuation that its an actual INTENT to portray women badly.

Im frankly tired of it!

You're tired of it? So are the people complaining about this stuff! They want games to treat their women just like their men.

 

[CloudAtlas]

A) Did you mean to ask: Why can't people take characters with really big boobs seriously?
B) Sexualization is bad if it does not fit to the character you want to portray
C) Biology
D) What matters is how a message is received, if that's what you're asking me.

A) Yeah.
B) And if they want to make an attractive character? Sexy and personality aren't mutually exclusive.
C) That only applies to men. Though ironic that the people they're trying to cater to are the ones more annoyed by it.
D) Okay. And now I'm imagining all the fanshippings as canon, I have to go wash my brain now.[/quote]

A) Well, the more prominent this feature is, the less prominent are the others. It just diverts attention. And a character with really big boobs is deliberately designed in this way, and you as player know that, and you have to wonder what the reasons were. It's something different to a real woman who happens to have big breasts. And in the real world too there's a reason why you don't wear hot pants to a business meeting.
B) But what makes a character attractive? You can make characters attractive without sexualizing them in cheap, juvenile ways.
C) Men have several reasons for being annoyed by this.
D) I don't really understand what your point is here. If a game included content that simply can be regarded as, say, racist, then that's what it is. Sure, it's even worse if it was intended to be racist, but lack of intent doesn't excuse the result. But of course you can't justify your opinion with stuff that isn't actually there.