Poll: Anti-BioWare backlash?

[Erttheking]

I feel like people are too eager to abandon ship with just about everything today...but then again I think that ME2 was a massive improvement over the first, so what do I know? I eagerly await ME3 with baited breath. Maybe I'm not that worked up because I have 0 interest in Dragon Age and by extent dragon age 2. I really only care about ME when it comes to Bioware frankly, and the way I see it they are handling it masterfully. But hey, people constantly bash Bungie for "catering to casuals" with Halo Reach, and it's my favorite game by them, so you'll forgive me if this tidal wave of cynicism isn't getting me down.

Ya know, what´s wrong with being a "causal gamer"? It´s almost like a sin. Yeah I´m a casual. I pop a few shots, go do something else and pop another few shots when I´m in the mood. There´s nothing bad about it.

Ain't that the truth, also I took a peek at a game informer article. Remember those 3 modes? Either there was a transmission error early on or Bioware changed something, because theatrical mode doesn't go on auto pilot anymore. The difficulty does plummet like a rock but you're still in control and have to play through the game. Just throught that I throw that out there.

 

[Shadows Risen]

I'm kinda sat on the fence about Bioware, specifically about ME3. I loved the first one and thought ME2 was an improvement in a lot of areas (combat, better characters etc.) and loved that as well. ME3 I was a bit worried about multiplayer but so long not playing it doesn't alter the single-player then I'm happy. I don't get what the fuss is about the 3 modes thing, it opens the game up a little to new people which I have no problem with as I'm just gonna play the RPG-mode. I'm inclined to think that might just be "OH, IT DOES NEW THINGS, KILL IT WITH FIRE" argument behind why people hate it even though it's not even out..

As for Bioware themselves, KoToR was brilliant as was DA:O. I really wanted them to make KoToR 3 but I don't count making an MMO selling out. I was disappointed about no KoToR 3, yes, but haven't people wanted a (supposedly) decent Star Wars MMO since like the dawn of time? I haven't played TOR myself so I can't really comment on whether it's terrible or the best thing ever. Haven't played DA2 either, though I might lend it off a friend and see if it's as terrible as some people say.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Need I mention that instead of making KOTOR 3, they make a fuckin' MMO because that's where the money is?

You are actually wrong on that. Knights of the Old Republic 3 was slated to be made by Obsidian. However, after Lucasarts ran KOTOR 2 into the ground, they decided to cancel KOTOR 3.

 

[Nobuoa Schniell]

In case it hasn't already been stated:

EA, since acquiring Bioware, has converted and started up several other studios under the Bioware label. None of these studios had any affiliation with Bioware other than in name. Now, maybe they moved some of the Bioware team to these new studios to help them, but doesn't that make it worse? If the original Bioware team has fragmented across all these new studios, then no game they make now will be of the "old Bioware quality". So yeah, the "Aren't the developer they used to be." Literally. What you may have known as Bioware is long since gone. You think the original Bioware team made SWTOR? The old team that was just big enough to work on large scale single player games? No, of course not. Even if it was done at their original studio (not sure if it was), they would have hired MANY more people on in order to complete the MMO. The team you once knew as Bioware has been split apart and saturated with new hires.

 

[Oroboros]

They make good games that are appealing to a much broader audience. Oh did you think you were special? Wrong.

I feel like people are too eager to abandon ship with just about everything today...but then again I think that ME2 was a massive improvement over the first, so what do I know? I eagerly await ME3 with baited breath. Maybe I'm not that worked up because I have 0 interest in Dragon Age and by extent dragon age 2. I really only care about ME when it comes to Bioware frankly, and the way I see it they are handling it masterfully. But hey, people constantly bash Bungie for "catering to casuals" with Halo Reach, and it's my favorite game by them, so you'll forgive me if this tidal wave of cynicism isn't getting me down.

Ya know, what´s wrong with being a "causal gamer"? It´s almost like a sin. Yeah I´m a casual. I pop a few shots, go do something else and pop another few shots when I´m in the mood. There´s nothing bad about it.

There's nothing wrong with casual games, or the people that play them. The problem is that developers are increasingly turning towards this market to the exclusion of other types of games. There are increasingly fewer places to turn if one wants a game in the vein of Arcanum, Baldur's Gate, Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, Morrowind, etc. Certain styles and genres are just being left by the wayside, and I think many people are irritated that Bioware, a developer who had a hand in the creation of many beloved 'traditional' rpgs of the past, is abandoning this style of game. There isn't really anywhere to turn to for games of that style, and it somewhat feel like they are shunning those who historically have been consumers of their games. The problem isn't 'casual gamers' they are after the same thing in games as the rest of us, after all (fun). The problem is that other folks are getting marginalised, and there is something of a feeling of 'betrayal' among many folks as a result of it.

 

[ResonanceSD]

I'm just blaming EA for everything at this point.

Mass Effect 3, the last EA game I knowingly buy, seems to be about 45% DLC at this point.

But you're still rewarding them in the short term. Which is exactly what they're after.

 

[Woodsey]

After Dragon Age 2, and their insistence of everything reaching for a wider audience and everything be 'accessible', I'm finding myself less and less interested in them.

Even other developers that tout the same lines have realised they're not seen as GOOD things to say.

Um, what does this have to do with what you quoted?

Surely you're capable of remembering a post you made like, 20 minutes ago?

You want to apply urban dictionary's definition of "selling out" to Bioware.

How have they abandoned their roots, exactly?

By taking the "mainstream" path over the wishes of their fans.

Most people didn't like the changes from ME1 to ME2. Likewise, most people didn't like the changes from DAO to DA2. Most people would have preferred a KOTOR 3 instead of another MMO.

Selling out means abandoning the fans that made you successful.

Actually, I'd say most did like the changes from ME1 to ME2 on the whole, whilst the reaction to Dragon Age 2 was far more clearly disappointed.

Personally, ME2 was a step in the right direction for that particular series, whilst Dragon Age 2 was a step in completely the wrong direction. In spite of this, they seem to have not learned their lesson.

 

[Sabertooth]

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Presumably the accusation is that they have sacrificed all artistic integrity in order to maximize profit. This, of course, assumes that profits are automatically maximized via the sacrifice of all artistic integrity, which is seldom the case.

Well even so, it has people who have jobs that depend on the success of their products. It´s not a charity case. They have to sell their products to the most people available, lest people loose their jobs.

Now I´m not defending them or attack them. I´m just saying that telling a company that functions on a profit basis, that it has "sold out" reeks of elitism to me. Think their games suck? Ok fine, but don´t act all pissy when the game has good sales.

Why do people argue that since a business needs to make money, anything goes?

Because as much as you like to think otherwise, that´s real life for you.

CD Projekt Red would like a word with you.

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Presumably the accusation is that they have sacrificed all artistic integrity in order to maximize profit. This, of course, assumes that profits are automatically maximized via the sacrifice of all artistic integrity, which is seldom the case.

Well even so, it has people who have jobs that depend on the success of their products. It´s not a charity case. They have to sell their products to the most people available, lest people loose their jobs.

Now I´m not defending them or attack them. I´m just saying that telling a company that functions on a profit basis, that it has "sold out" reeks of elitism to me. Think their games suck? Ok fine, but don´t act all pissy when the game has good sales.

Why do people argue that since a business needs to make money, anything goes?

Because as much as you like to think otherwise, that´s real life for you.

CD Projekt Red would like a word with you.

Or or what is that?

 

[mrF00bar]

The only BioWare games I have played are Mass Effect 1 & 2, and Dragon Age: Origins (played the demo for DA2, and I didn't think it was bad). But with Mass Effect 3s upcoming release (which I am so eagerly awaiting), my opinion of BioWare is going down. 'Mass Effect 3 is better with Kinect!' 'Mass Effect 3 has three modes of play!' 'Mass Effect 3 is a great place for new players to jump into the series!' 'Multiplayer!', all of that just pisses me off so much.

Those things would annoying me but now I just don't care about them because of Origin. I refuse to install it onto my PC and am therefore also not going to be able to play ME3. Other than that I still hold Bioware in high regard but after EA took them over I have just been waiting to see them get run into the ground and it brings a tear to my eye knowing EA will do it someday.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

There's nothing wrong with casual games, or the people that play them. The problem is that developers are increasingly turning towards this market to the exclusion of other types of games. There are increasingly fewer places to turn if one wants a game in the vein of Arcanum, Baldur's Gate, Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, Morrowind, etc. Certain styles and genres are just being left by the wayside, and I think many people are irritated that Bioware, a developer who had a hand in the creation of many beloved 'traditional' rpgs of the past, is abandoning this style of game. There isn't really anywhere to turn to for games of that style, and it somewhat feel like they are shunning those who historically have been consumers of their games. The problem isn't 'casual gamers' they are after the same thing in games as the rest of us, after all (fun). The problem is that other folks are getting marginalised, and there is something of a feeling of 'betrayal' among many folks as a result of it.

The problem is the market for those old school RPGS was small, and shrinking. The genre almost died on the vine along with adventure games. Cost of development too high, returns too low. A lot of old school CRPG nuts hate on Bioware and Bethesda, but they re-popularized the genre. I'm not sure Witcher 2 even exists if not for them, certainly not with the development budget it ended up having.

Don't get me wrong, I grew up with the Ultimas and Wizardry's and Bard's Tales. Once upon a time, Baldur's Gate was the new fangled casual RPG everyone was hating on (I believe it was Scorpia who claimed it wasn't a "real RPG"). I acknowledge something has been lost as the RPG has evolved in this medium. But there are things to love about these new games, too. And there are games like Avernum to cater to the niche group of fans who just can't let go.

 

[blindthrall]

I can't hate the people that made KOTOR and Mass Effect. I just don't trust any of their new stuff.

 

[raankh]

They went for a different audience, end of.

I dont hate them for it; I just no longer belong to their target audience and as a result dont buy their games.

My thoughts exactly. I've even been looking for an mmo that tries to go for new players, but TOR sure didn't deliver in that regard. ME1 is one of my favourite games-- despite it's unfinished and unpolished state. ME2 made me lose interest.

Here's hoping another studio can carry on and take RPGs to the next level. Bioware isn't going to, from the looks of it. Man, that kind of hurt to write. Well, I guess nobody will mourn one less fanboy in the world. Good riddance.

 

[Oroboros]

There's nothing wrong with casual games, or the people that play them. The problem is that developers are increasingly turning towards this market to the exclusion of other types of games. There are increasingly fewer places to turn if one wants a game in the vein of Arcanum, Baldur's Gate, Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, Morrowind, etc. Certain styles and genres are just being left by the wayside, and I think many people are irritated that Bioware, a developer who had a hand in the creation of many beloved 'traditional' rpgs of the past, is abandoning this style of game. There isn't really anywhere to turn to for games of that style, and it somewhat feel like they are shunning those who historically have been consumers of their games. The problem isn't 'casual gamers' they are after the same thing in games as the rest of us, after all (fun). The problem is that other folks are getting marginalised, and there is something of a feeling of 'betrayal' among many folks as a result of it.

The problem is the market for those old school RPGS was small, and shrinking. The genre almost died on the vine along with adventure games. Cost of development too high, returns too low. A lot of old school CRPG nuts hate on Bioware and Bethesda, but they re-popularized the genre. I'm not sure Witcher 2 even exists if not for them, certainly not with the development budget it ended up having.

Don't get me wrong, I grew up with the Ultimas and Wizardry's and Bard's Tales. Once upon a time, Baldur's Gate was the new fangled casual RPG everyone was hating on (I believe it was Scorpia who claimed it wasn't a "real RPG"). I acknowledge something has been lost as the RPG has evolved in this medium. But there are things to love about these new games, too. And there are games like Avernum to cater to the niche group of fans who just can't let go.

To be fair, Bioware was one of the groups that did make many of those old school rpgs, small and shrinking market or not. This *was* a group that Bioware was catering to in the past, and quite effectively. The fact that they have decided that this group is no longer worth their time is definately a good reason for fans to lose their faith in them, especially considering that many of their recent games are designed to draw the attention of this group (TOR and DA) They just don't seem to be willing to commit to actually make a game for this group anymore, so it's something of a bait and switch deal.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I feel like people are too eager to abandon ship with just about everything today...but then again I think that ME2 was a massive improvement over the first, so what do I know? I eagerly await ME3 with baited breath. Maybe I'm not that worked up because I have 0 interest in Dragon Age and by extent dragon age 2. I really only care about ME when it comes to Bioware frankly, and the way I see it they are handling it masterfully. But hey, people constantly bash Bungie for "catering to casuals" with Halo Reach, and it's my favorite game by them, so you'll forgive me if this tidal wave of cynicism isn't getting me down.

Also I would like to quote my father here. "When you're in business, trying to appeal solely to the same audience is the stupidest thing that you can do"

I WILL QUOTE YOU WITH SMOLDERING RAGE AT YOUR OPINION!

Sorry, I just had to do that, because I know how much you hate it. Anyways, I will say this: while I definitely have very little respect for Bioware at the moment, it doesn't stop me from enjoying the games they made before Dragon Age 2. I still love Mass Effect 1 and 2, Origins and Awakening were great fun, and KOTOR is still great.

I'm not looking forward to ME3, judging by the two games that have come out since ME2, but I will keep an eye on it, and base my decision around what I see, and only after the game launches.

 

[Erttheking]

I feel like people are too eager to abandon ship with just about everything today...but then again I think that ME2 was a massive improvement over the first, so what do I know? I eagerly await ME3 with baited breath. Maybe I'm not that worked up because I have 0 interest in Dragon Age and by extent dragon age 2. I really only care about ME when it comes to Bioware frankly, and the way I see it they are handling it masterfully. But hey, people constantly bash Bungie for "catering to casuals" with Halo Reach, and it's my favorite game by them, so you'll forgive me if this tidal wave of cynicism isn't getting me down.

Also I would like to quote my father here. "When you're in business, trying to appeal solely to the same audience is the stupidest thing that you can do"

I WILL QUOTE YOU WITH SMOLDERING RAGE AT YOUR OPINION!

Sorry, I just had to do that, because I know how much you hate it. Anyways, I will say this: while I definitely have very little respect for Bioware at the moment, it doesn't stop me from enjoying the games they made before Dragon Age 2. I still love Mass Effect 1 and 2, Origins and Awakening were great fun, and KOTOR is still great.

I'm not looking forward to ME3, judging by the two games that have come out since ME2, but I will keep an eye on it, and base my decision around what I see, and only after the game launches.

You mean that you will form your opinion like a rational man? No problems on my end.

 

[CountryMike]

I did and I wonder how naive you really are. Well, they must make money so they are permitted to do anything to reach that goal.

ME3 is part of a trilogy, to take the third game and shift the goalpost towards Kinect and multiplayer is just wrong.

Two small extra features that can easily be ignored is far from "shifting the goal".

 

[8a88leph1sh]

I'm looking forward to Mass Effect 3 more than virtually all else. Some of the marketing changes and other things that have come about after EA acquired them do irk me a bit but not enough to hate the developer...I just hate EA.

 

[Laser Priest]

I'm going to say I agree on some of the complaints about their actions with TOR, but otherwise, it seems a large portion of BioWare's fanbase is prepared to scream "Ruined Forever!" anytime the company does anything.

 

[Puddleknock]

Well this topic has stirred some passion on both sides.

Time for me to be very boring but I'm perfectly ok with Bioware. I've played all Bioware games since Baldur's Gate 2 (bar Dragon Age 2) and I'm still a fan. There are faults and features I dislike about the newer bioware games, but then the old games were not gaming perfection either. What matters is that I still enjoy playing bioware games and I see little reason to think that will change otherwise.

I have high hopes for ME3 and even with all the new features for ME3 I have faith that my hopes will be met.

 

[Sabertooth]

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Presumably the accusation is that they have sacrificed all artistic integrity in order to maximize profit. This, of course, assumes that profits are automatically maximized via the sacrifice of all artistic integrity, which is seldom the case.

Well even so, it has people who have jobs that depend on the success of their products. It´s not a charity case. They have to sell their products to the most people available, lest people loose their jobs.

Now I´m not defending them or attack them. I´m just saying that telling a company that functions on a profit basis, that it has "sold out" reeks of elitism to me. Think their games suck? Ok fine, but don´t act all pissy when the game has good sales.

Why do people argue that since a business needs to make money, anything goes?

Because as much as you like to think otherwise, that´s real life for you.

CD Projekt Red would like a word with you.

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Presumably the accusation is that they have sacrificed all artistic integrity in order to maximize profit. This, of course, assumes that profits are automatically maximized via the sacrifice of all artistic integrity, which is seldom the case.

Well even so, it has people who have jobs that depend on the success of their products. It´s not a charity case. They have to sell their products to the most people available, lest people loose their jobs.

Now I´m not defending them or attack them. I´m just saying that telling a company that functions on a profit basis, that it has "sold out" reeks of elitism to me. Think their games suck? Ok fine, but don´t act all pissy when the game has good sales.

Why do people argue that since a business needs to make money, anything goes?

Because as much as you like to think otherwise, that´s real life for you.

CD Projekt Red would like a word with you.

Or or what is that?

In case you are being serious; they are the studio behind The Witcher games. Worshiped by many because they did not use intrusive DRM on their titles, made both games difficult and showed it was still possible to make a shit load of money while pulling the whole thing off.

Never heard of them. I have very vague memories of the Witcher I think. Then again I´m note interested in medevil RPG settings, so that´s probably why it flew under my radar.