Poll: Anti-BioWare backlash?

[Daniel Weisman]

My first Bethesda game was DA:Origins, and since I have a ps3 it then went to ME2. I consider those two in my top five games of all time. Then DA2 came out. I love DA:O and ME2 for the story, which DA2 failed at. ME3 should be good but I am worried about the focus on the kinect and multiplayer. (I do like the idea of playing as a krogan though.)

 

[Oroboros]

Exactly. I think it's a real shame, if I'm honest. Also, I don't think it's accurate to say the market for traditional RPGs is "small and shrinking". It's certainly big enough to turn a healthy profit, as DA:O demonstrated, but it's not the biggest market.

Again, I feel this is a point worth repeating: Dragon Age Origins was Bioware's best selling game, ever. It considerably outsold both Mass Effect games.

If Bioware were to look purely at their sales data, they'd perhaps come to the conclusion that the old-school RPG demographic is their biggest market, considering that more people bought their latest old-school RPG than bought any of their newer adventure RPGs. If they had any sense, they would not have turned Dragon Age into more of a Mass Effect type game. They'd have turned Mass Effect into more of a Dragon Age type game. Whatever your most popular game is, that's the one you need to study if you want to try and replicate its success.

And Bioware properly borked that.

It's not enough for the biggest profit imaginable. And with the new ultra-profit-driven paradigm that the games industry has taken on over the last ten years, only the biggest profit imaginable is enough. That means every game has to appeal to the largest possible number of people, which means games get less and less unique, more and more homogenized.

Capitalism and art are compatible up to a point. The games industry is getting past that point.

And it pisses me off when people say "that's the real world, deal with it". Yes, I know that's the real world, I don't have to fucking like it.

True. But what I don't understand is why EA and Bioware decided to ignore the fact that with DA:O, they managed to capture bottled lightning: an old-school RPG that sold millions upon milions of copies. Is there perhaps an underlying trend to be examined there? Are there potential demographics we can market these sort of games to? To other similar game releases, such as The Witcher and (later, obviously) Skyrim perhaps suggest there is a market for uber-successful, deep fantasy RPGs?

When faced with those sorts of questions, why would you then decide to make a generic hack and slash built off the design philosophies of your lesser selling game? For once, if you will, EA released a game where art and financial profit met up in a spectacular form of success, and they decided to ignore it completely. It's just so... frustrating!

That's fascinating, and gives Bioware even less of an excuse for its behaviour. Really baffling that they would go the route they have been going in light of that.

where's the 'indifferent because i'm not dumb enough to get emotionally attached to a business' option? because its stuff like that which leads to stupid asinine occurences like the 'console wars' and the 'ford vs holden' debate

seriously, i honestly don't care either way whether bioware has 'changed' or 'sold out', demographics shift, so long as the end product is good thats all that matters. same with buying a car, it doesn't matter what the badge or label is, just that it's reliable, fun, and has a manual gearbox

Your car analogy is horribly flawed. The situation is more aken to going to a car dealership after seeing an ad for a pickup truck for a company that makes good pickup trucks, buying a pickup truck, and then getting handed the keys to a SUV. That may or not have flat tires. The point of this whole Bioware thing is that Bioware is not delivering on the product that folks have come to associate with Bioware (rpgs/pickup trucks) instead, we are getting a completely different genre (action rpgs/SUV)and then there are the complaints that on top of this, their quality is slipping.

 

[PureIrony]

Maybe they used to be something different and I never knew it.

Yeah, if you liked Dragon Age 2, you might like some of their earlier games. For instance, Dragon Age: Origins is like Dragon Age 2, except that it doesn't suck.

I played that game. Before Dragon Age 2. I like them both. I'll admit that there are lots of things that the original does better, but then there are things the sequel does better then the original.

I love how you assumed that my post I hadn't played their earlier games. I've played both DAs and MEs. I've played Jade Empire. I'm currently playing Baldur's Gate, and it seems to hold up pretty well.

What I was referring to was that I didn't understand what sort of status they might have held before, how people might have viewed them over the years. Thats lost to me.

I can tell how perceptions have changed in 18 months I've spent on this site. Opinion of Bioware has gone down an incredible amount so far, and for what? One game that wasn't what people expected, and a haphazard MMO launch? Also, don't even try to bring up ME2. Nobody seemed to have had that much of a problem with it until after DA2's launch.

I honestly don't get the Bioware hate. Its all so...disproportionate. Honestly, why even bother to call yourself a fan of something if you're going to turn on it the second it makes something you don't like?

 

[Smeggs]

Nope. Every company has good days and bad days. Bioware makes some games I like, and some I don't.

 

[GiantRaven]

I don't get it. I simply just don't get it. Dragon Age 2 was a perfectly good game, if containing some questionable design choices. Mass Effect 3 looks to be a barrel of fun and every major 'complaint' I see seems more like pathetic nitpicking to me.

At the end of the day, Bioware are only a studio making videogames. It's not that big a deal. It isn't worth getting this worked up over.

 

[Windcaler]

From where Im standing I see bioware trying a new direction that isnt so much bad as it is different and lets be honest: More often then not Gamers fear change. In the case of TOR they tried (and IMO succeeded) in putting story into MMO's which was sorely lacking from just about every MMO Ive played. It didnt end there though, they went a step even further and put in their own interactive story style which I believe has changed the genre for the better. The other problem with TOR is a lot of people really just wanted KOTOR 3 and dont want to play TOR as KOTOR 3. I personally dont understand why we cant have TOR and get a KOTOR 3 in the future but when you dont meet certain peoples expectations they want to complain

In the case of Dragon age 2, it really wasnt the train wreck most people make it out to be. I dont say it was a great game but it wasnt bad either. They tried to make a game that continued to appeal to their core audience but clean up the game a bit and make it more interactive. Ill be honest the original DA:O was a fantastic game but the combat system left a lot to be desired for me. There were many times I was waiting for what seemed like an eternity for attacks to happen and it took away the interactive part. Bioware tried to fix that issue in DA2, it didnt work but the fact that they're trying new things can only be a positive thing

 

[Zhukov]

It's amazing how fickle people's opinions can be. In 2010 Bioware was well regarded around here.

Then DA2 comes out, makes a number of nasty mistakes and generally fails to live up to the expected standard. All of a sudden Bioware are terrible people who rape small children and deserve to die painful deaths, their every word is picked apart in search of things to hate and ME2 is retro-actively declared to be the work of Satan.

*shrug*

Ah well.

Personally, I like 'em. Sure, they've goofed from time to time, but who hasn't?

At the end of the day, I am perfectly happy to forgive their occasional screw-ups because they remain one of the only game developers in existence capable of creating decent characters. In that department they stand head and shoulders above the rest of the turgid shit the industry produces.

 

[scorptatious]

I loved both Mass Effect 1 and 2. And I'm anticipating the third.

That being said, I can't help but feel a little worried about how the final product is going to come out. Bioware has made some decisions about the game that seem a bit odd. Like adding multiplayer and Kinect. Not that I particularly mind the two. But it doesn't really sound like they belong in a game like Mass Effect.

It doesn't really help that there's a large group of overreacting people on here and other sites that like to cry foul every time Bioware does something they don't agree with. Not to mention EA is considered the Anti-Christ on this site for whatever reason. As much as these people annoy me, I can't completely dismiss them as some of them do make good points.

So I'm not really sure what to feel about Bioware. I'd like to believe Mass Effect 3 will be really good. But it's kind of hard to feel optimistic with what's going on right now.

 

[ecoho]

Um, what does this have to do with what you quoted?

Surely you're capable of remembering a post you made like, 20 minutes ago?

You want to apply urban dictionary's definition of "selling out" to Bioware.

How have they abandoned their roots, exactly?

By taking the "mainstream" path over the wishes of their fans.

Most people didn't like the changes from ME1 to ME2. Likewise, most people didn't like the changes from DAO to DA2. Most people would have preferred a KOTOR 3 instead of another MMO.

Selling out means abandoning the fans that made you successful.

Ok i know im steping on a land mine of rage and hate, but what the hell. You wat to talk majority? the majority of the Mass effects player base is on the console. Im not touching dragon age with a ten foot pole. As for KOTOR it would not have sold well after the second one,yes it would have had moderate success on the PC but they would lose the console crowd (which once again is the majority in gameing.)

now please stop with your blind hate and rage and read what your typing because at the momoent your coming off as a self intitled little kid.

 

[lapan]

Prior to TOR's release, BioWare was considered one of the best developers out there. Highly respected for the stories they put in their games, and the relative accessibility of the gameplay in said games.

Then came Dragon Age 2 and now TOR. And even though the latter game is successful (which is debatable, I know, but every objective critic and casual fan give TOR high praises) the former had near universal disappointment.

But the backlash I'm seeing today for the developer seems because of TOR. Even with DA2 not meeting expectations, people still held BioWare in high regard. Now it seems people are just hating them for the sake of hating them. As if human nature dictates that you must hate anything that's hyped up or uber successful regardless of if you've even tried the new product or how you once may have felt.

So, I'm just curious. Has your opinion of BioWare changed?

Yes. Bad handling of any sort of critique, bans for stupid reasons and constantly lowering game quality in each game made me lose my respect for bioware.

And their desicion to release ME3 on Origin only + the dissapointing leaked story scared me away from buying ME3.

 

[mrF00bar]

The only BioWare games I have played are Mass Effect 1 & 2, and Dragon Age: Origins (played the demo for DA2, and I didn't think it was bad). But with Mass Effect 3s upcoming release (which I am so eagerly awaiting), my opinion of BioWare is going down. 'Mass Effect 3 is better with Kinect!' 'Mass Effect 3 has three modes of play!' 'Mass Effect 3 is a great place for new players to jump into the series!' 'Multiplayer!', all of that just pisses me off so much.

Those things would annoying me but now I just don't care about them because of Origin. I refuse to install it onto my PC and am therefore also not going to be able to play ME3. Other than that I still hold Bioware in high regard but after EA took them over I have just been waiting to see them get run into the ground and it brings a tear to my eye knowing EA will do it someday.

Why not just uninstall Origin after your finished with ME3? Or is it uninstallable?

That would make sense but Origin collects information from your PC and sends it back to EA, it is basically spyware. Would you willing install something that could note down all the information about your PC system and I believe it even monitors what websites you visit? That could just be me not paying enough attention though.

 

[demotion1]

I don't get it. I simply just don't get it. Dragon Age 2 was a perfectly good game, if containing some questionable design choices. Mass Effect 3 looks to be a barrel of fun and every major 'complaint' I see seems more like pathetic nitpicking to me.

At the end of the day, Bioware are only a studio making videogames. It's not that big a deal. It isn't worth getting this worked up over.

I'm with you here. I accept that people can have complaints, sometimes it really seems like laughable nitpicking.

Hating them because of EA does have some merrit in my book, DAO2 was a good game but compared with the rest of their catalog makes it seem worse than it is. Only 2 problems for me were enemies teleporting in the battle and repeatable dungeons - both were there because of time limitations. It actually seems like they learned something from their mistakes here and i have high hopes that they will redeem themselves with DAO3.

Both Mass Effects were awesome games, and although i liked Mass Effect better as an RPG, Mass Effect 2 was a better game imo and it is much more replayable than 1 - i've played it at least 3 times without getting bored, while i got really bored the second time i played Mass Effect. Also, about the DLC, they are roughly the same at release as with Mass Effect 2 - it also had lots of trivial dlc that does not matter. Let me remind you that Mass Effect 2's DLC was mostly high quality DLC. It is the same team and so far it looks like they will deliver.

TOR is an amazing game in my opinion and they have done an amazing job releasing such a good MMO. I know i will be giving them my money there for the foreseeable future.

So, for me they have a positive balance in their latest releases.

 

[Imbechile]

I would stop hating Bioware if they dropped all pretense of making an RPG and said they are making an action game. Then my thoughts would be like this:

They went for a different audience, end of.

I dont hate them for it; I just no longer belong to their target audience and as a result dont buy their games.

But their fans would go apeshit. It doesn't matter that their games are shallow and near devoid of any RPG elements, as long as they label their games RPGs their fans will buy it, no matter what they release, and also, as long as they label their games RPGs, I will have nothing but contempt for them.

 

[Dandark]

I liked Mass effect 2 well enough, there were many things I liked better in the first game but it was still pretty good.
Dragon age 2 is tricky.....On one hand it was a dissapointment and not as good as I would have hoped a DA sequel to be, yet it was still an enjoyable enough game.

The story is so terrible that I have never been able to finish the game more than once and I have about 11 different characters but I do that a lot on most games as well. Im worried about Bioware but haven't completely lost faith in them yet.
Hopefully DA3 will be a great improvement.

Also I haven't really been hyped for ME3 at all but it's looking pretty decent, I hear you can now actully use melee weapons which sounds cool since I always wanted a better melee feature than press B to slap the air in front of you and maybe kill a fly.

 

[Knight Templar]

They have made mistakes, that is impossible to deny, some mistakes are big, most are not.
But they still create enjoyable games (haven't played TOR, don't intend to) and their screw-ups are not company shattering.

The hate for them is quite out of proportion with what they have done, it's a bit strange to see such hate (some of which can only be described as obsessive and malicious). Maybe this is because they were held in such high regard before?

They have a terrible PR department too.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I don't understand the love DA:O's combat system gets: its fucking slow and frustrating. It's levelling system pretty par for the course, but the talent trees and layout was God-awful mess. I have tried to play this game eight times and every time the stupid combat system and retarded companion AI has ruined it.

Now, Dragon Age II, despite have a less epic story and a game area that was criminally small managed to fix up the one thing I hated about DA:O. The combat, instead of a meandering and dull system, I get a free flow hack and slash system that allows me to pick either pick my targets or bullrush a group and see how I go. Had that been the only change, I'd consider it enough.

It is a shame that the art style the used for Origins was jettisoned in favour of the one they used in DAII, and the lack of races/backstory combintion was disappointing but I found myself enamoured with Hawke's companions, Varric 'Super-Best Bro' Varric especially.

As for ME2, I fail to see how tightening up the gun-play from 'frustrating' to 'fun' is a bad idea?

 

[Steampunk Viking]

These Anti-Bioware rants is hilarious. I will say I caused a small earthquake at my yell of "NOOOOOOOO" when I heard EA bought them out, but they're still a great company who make solid storylines and great gameplay. Plus it's given me the excuse of "if it's a shit element, I blame EA", therefore I've made my own excuse for saying Bioware are amazing, hah! They are still my favourite games developer.

But if I may address a few of the reasons for complaints that have propped up...

First off, Bioware "selling out". My first point will be EA, who as I've always said is owned by Satan himself, but let's ignore that for a moment. Bioware are enjoying their biggest successes of their career right now, they're bound to be a touch more extravagent, what with the most anticipated epic series in years (Mass Effect) and the best selling MMO of all time (The Old Republic), they're going to see an oppurtunity here, and let's be fair, apart from the travesty that was making us pay for ME2 DLC when they said it'd be free, they haven't really done anything to screw us over. The figurine situation and the ME3 new modes are perfect examples. People are complaining about the multiplayer and the 3 single player modes when Bioware are just reaching out to a new audience - news flash, you can play Mass Effect 3 on RPG mode and not play multiplayer and without Kinect for exactly the same experience you expected! As for the figurines, it's a nice treat to give you DLC for multiplayer when buying a figurine and it's not essential at all... what makes this funnier is this sort of quote:

"Right, this has put me off Mass Effect 3, not buying it now. How dare they put free DLC on optional figurines for the multiplayer section, which I hate already and am never going to play anyways!"

Mass Effect is huge now. Star Wars had figurines as well, I don't hear you all ***** about that.

Secondly, Dragon Age 2 causing people to hate the company. Companies mess up, but Bioware, unlike most companies listen to their fans, and sometimes the fans get it wrong. Regardless they're always trying to improve and give the player base a better experience... and you hate them for this? That's just dumb. They've already said they're going to remove alot of crap from DA2 in DA3, just leave it, they've heard you already. Geeze, it's like you're a girl Bioware fancies, they try and woo you and do everything to please you, and you snub them for a developer who doesn't give two shits about what you want, like Infinity Ward. "Here's Modern Warfare 3, it's exactly the same as the last two, all for just £50!" "Woo! I'm buying that!"

Ok rant over.

 

[lapan]

Bioware are enjoying their biggest successes of their career right now, they're bound to be a touch more extravagent, what with the most anticipated epic series in years (Mass Effect) and the best selling MMO of all time (The Old Republic), they're going to see an oppurtunity here, and let's be fair, apart from the travesty that was making us pay for ME2 DLC when they said it'd be free, they haven't really done anything to screw us over.

Which as i heard is suffering from some severe bugs and Bioware/EAs responses rank from simply ignoring even the most constructive negative critique as trolling, banning the affected parties or even removing the button to cancel subscriptions and deleting+sending out warnings to people who post the direct link to it.

Meanwhile the leaked story of ME3 lets me fear the moment the game actually comes out as they took some very questionable decicions with simply retconning and ignoring the players choices at several points.

 

[Slash Dementia]

I think I'll decide when I play Mass Effect 3. The changes seem big right now, but actually getting to play it might change my opinion. I'm not one for being all crazy and saying that I hate them because they added a few new features or changed a bit. It's the direction they chose, and it still looks like a fun game that I'll enjoy. I just have to aim my expectaions lower so that I won't be disappointed.

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

Bioware used to be one of those companies that could do no wrong. But not with EA in the picture they have started to do a few things that I just know they are better than that.

I'm a bit scared to say the least, without Bioware all I have left is Valve and those people are pissing me off because of Episode 3. Even in Valve time its getting ridiculous and the longer it takes the less impressed I'm going to be with it.