Poll: Anwar al-Awlaki's Death: Justice or Assassination?

Calbeck

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Jul 13, 2008
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cookyy2k said:
This whole modern war style sits nicely on the dual standards of thinking. In world war 2 the French (and other occupied nations) resistance basically invented this kind of way to fight back against a numerically and technologically superior force sat in their homeland, they are hailed as heroes because the allies won. When the Afghans or Iraqis (and Vietcong back in the day) do it they're evil and cowardly (as the media keeps branding them).
Actually, the French fought back primarily by attacking military "soft targets" such as rail lines, ammunition dumps, and other sites with a military value to the occupiers.

Conversely, the primary targets of the insurgents in both Iraq and Afghanistan (and even back in the day of the Vietcong) have been overwhelmingly CIVILIAN targets.

According to the Lancet Report --- you know, the one that claimed 600,000 Iraqi deaths had occurred by violence as early as 2004? --- over two-thirds of all such deaths were claimed to have been carried out by the insurgents.

Although the Lancet's numbers have been considered by many to be highly suspect due to 1000~ households somehow coming up with a full 1% of all death certificates issued to that point (there's therefore only 100,000~ households in Iraq, or Lancet ended up with a uniquely lopsided sample), a review of confirmable deaths and causes listed at IraqBodyCount.org supports the anti-civilian targeting approaches of the insurgents.

A prime example is that, in its first major action, the insurgents conducted a mortar attack on two major Shi'a mosques on a high holy day during the middle of prayer. US forces in the area were later castigated for not spotting and intercepting the attack before it could be carried out, particularly as it was clearly engineered towards killing the most helpless civilians possible in as short a time as possible.

Other examples include suicide bombers targeting civilian shops when no Coalition troops are around, leaving cartfuls of toys on school playgrounds with bombs buried underneath the toys, and attempting to detonate mustard-gas artillery rounds in the middle of population areas.

Precisely the sort of people many anti-war activists claim WE are --- mass murderers with no compunction regarding the slaughter of civilians --- are the people we are, in fact, fighting to rid Iraq and Afghanistan of.
 

SoopaSte123

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Jul 1, 2010
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It bothers me that we in the US only seem to view US citizens as people. We had celebrations in the streets when we killed bin Laden but now we freak out because this guy was a US citizen. You can't have it both ways, people. Citizenship of a particular country doesn't make you more or less of a human being.
 

Grospoliner

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Feb 16, 2010
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Anyone who chooses to burn war against another nation should be prepared for violence to be returned to it in kind. Yes that means it perpetuates a vicious cycle. However when a population has no power and is ruled by tyranny in any shape or form (especially religious) those people, who cower rather than rise against their oppressors, are no better than the men that fly the planes into buildings. I have no sympathy for those people, nor would I expect any in return. Yes it is cold, yes it is callous, but if you do not take a stand against it, then you're not worth the air you suck into your lungs. You're not even a human being at that point. You're a mongrel. A dog. Yoked to the engine of oppression.

A man chooses, a slave obeys.
 

Spencer Petersen

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Apr 3, 2010
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cookyy2k said:
OT. This whole modern war style sits nicely on the dual standards of thinking. In world war 2 the French (and other occupied nations) resistance basically invented this kind of way to fight back against a numerically and technologically superior force sat in their homeland, they are hailed as heroes because the allies won. When the Afghans or Iraqis (and Vietcong back in the day) do it they're evil and cowardly (as the media keeps branding them). I think anyone who will fight and die for their principals is damn brave. I doubt many in the modern day UK would be willing to die on principal as most I see don't have any.
Big difference: The occupied countries in WW2 were opposing a regime that was enacting genocide on an entire people. These resistance movements also used targeted attacks against the occupying forces themselves rather than kill scores of their own countrymen. The Taliban, Vietcong and freedom fighters in Iraq regularly targeted innocent civilians to stir public unrest. Fighting and dying for your principles is very brave, but placing car bombs in crowded markets is not.
 

Supertegwyn

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Oct 7, 2010
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He was a terrorist and deserved to die. It doesn't matter if he was pony Jesus, what he did was inexcusable.
 

Yureina

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May 6, 2010
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Justice. The punishment for treason is death, as is always has and should be. It's one of the few crimes I have no problem with regarding the death penalty.
 

Falsename

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Oct 28, 2010
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There's no discussion. The man was a terrorist!
He was an American citizen? So what!?

He was putting a lot of innocent people at risk not just Americans. Australia/England/France/Europe... if the opportunity arose and they didn't act the way they did there is something seriously wrong with the American government.
 

InsanityRequiem

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Nov 9, 2009
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The thing is, by the U.S. Government murdering Anwar, not only does it set a precedent for the officials to 'commence military actions' against enemies outside the borders, but also allows the officials to initiate drone/military strikes against protestors and disagreers on U.S. soil as well. You don't like how the Republicans are acting? You're a terrorist and a traitor. Don't like Obama's stance on taxing? You're a terrorist and a traitor. The 5th amendment was implemented to keep the government from becoming a dictatorship and selecting who to kill based on their political beliefs.

And this goes for what happened with Osama as well. While it 'was' a military exercise to 'capture' Bin Laden, how it was done and how it was handled left a vile taste in my mouth because he was a criminal that should have been charged for Crimes Against Humanity.

The thing is, these people wouldn't have lasted in any sort of prison. We have made them martyrs to force the other AQ members to rally behind.

Who would you rather follow? The man murdered by a government that has proven historically to be the cause of most issues today? Or would you follow the same man, but killed in a prison by some random inmate, who has been publicly brought to justice for his crimes and sentenced?

I know I, if I were in such a situation, would follow the man murdered by a government instead of the man murdered by some random inmate.
 

RemuValtrez

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Sep 14, 2011
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I see it as the moment he decided to go against the U.S., he effectively gave up his citizenship. It was his choice, he knew the consequences.
 

Sandernista

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Feb 26, 2009
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Therumancer said:
Undead Dragon King said:
In case you havn't heard yet, Al Qaeda firebrand and radical Imam Anwar al-Awlaki was killed by a U.S. drone airstrike in Yemen today. Most have applauded the killing as another major victory by the West in the War on Terror. al-Awlaki was an influential and tech-savvy instigator of jihad who radicalized many Muslims over the internet, and was responsible for inspiring the likes of the Ft. Hood massacre and "underwear bomber" of 2009 and the failed Times Square bombing last year. His death will no doubt have a negative effect on international recruitment for al Qaeda.

But al-Awlaki was also a natural-born U.S. citizen who left the country for Yemen in 2002. He was the first U.S. citizen to be placed on the CIA's "Kill or Capture" list. Some people and politicians have claimed that, despite the fact that al-Awlaki was an obvious threat to the security of America, his death might lead the government down a slippery slope of approved assassination of problem citizens, as now we know that just because you are born in the U.S. doesn't protect you from federal assassination.

Discuss. What's your take on this situation?

He effectively gave up his citizenship. Even if he didn't this is a case of outright Treason (even if the US doesn't like to use that term or pursue it for the most part) and as such there is no issue here at all as far as I'm concerned.

Killing people acting against the US? I'm all for that. I don't care where your from, if your trying to bring down the country for another set of principles, this is what should happen. This is only an issue because the US hasn't been assertive enough in the past. It's nice to be merciful and show restraint, but that should never be confused with us HAVING to be that way, or having some responsibility to let crimes and threats go.
I agree with most of this.

But, for a citizen he should have at least gotten a trial in absentia.
 

Grickit

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Mar 2, 2011
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SoopaSte123 said:
It bothers me that we in the US only seem to view US citizens as people. We had celebrations in the streets when we killed bin Laden but now we freak out because this guy was a US citizen. You can't have it both ways, people. Citizenship of a particular country doesn't make you more or less of a human being.
I didn't like that one either. (Though I didn't dislike it as much, if that makes sense.) I mean... we even gave the Nazis fair trials. Are [those who cheer Bin Laden's assassination] saying he was worse than the Nazis? Because he certainly wasn't.
 

Thaluikhain

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Jan 16, 2010
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I have no particular issue with him being killed.

However, the decision to do so was made behind closed doors, with no public access for national security reason, which is a bit awkward.
 

Random berk

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Sep 1, 2010
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Personally, I'd like the idea that this was a deliberate assassination more than the idea that it was a lucky shot by a drone that was dropping bombs over the whole area. In a war, lets say WW1, the assassinations of certain individuals would have done a lot more to decide the course of history than all the pushing and shoving between the enemy forces. If assassinations were used more often in war, a lot less people would die for no real gain.
 

-Samurai-

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Oct 8, 2009
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Another bad dude died. Meh.

I just wonder why he didn't seek shelter when he heard "Enemy predator missile inbound".
[small]What? Don't look at me like that.[/small]
 

Nudu

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Jun 1, 2011
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Why do assassinations have such a bad rep? Targeting the guy you want to kill is much better then deploying ground troops. I'm against drone strikes, however. At least until they invent drones that turn around and fly back home if there's a danger of harming civilians.
 

The_Vigilant

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Jul 13, 2011
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What a silly conversation. He was CLEARLY guilty of treason and the constitutionally prescribed punishment is death. I don't see the slippery slope here.
 

souper soup guy

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Aug 8, 2011
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Yes,
yes he was a threat to the U.S. and probably needed to be taken out.
yes it would have been better if we could have given him a trial.
Edit: also shouldn't this be in the religion/politics section?
 

Caravelle

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Oct 1, 2011
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The_Vigilant said:
What a silly conversation. He was CLEARLY guilty of treason and the constitutionally prescribed punishment is death. I don't see the slippery slope here.
He was so CLEARLY guilty he never even got indicted. One of the, you know, constitutionally prescribed things you're supposed to do before executing citizens.

Besides, given the DOJ called "State Secrets" and refused to justify the assassination in court it's weird his guilt would be so CLEAR to random people on the internet. Has someone been leaking State Secrets ?