Poll: Are We Entitled?

[Epona]

It depends on if you actually want whatever DLC they're throwing in. Also I couldn't care less about scratched or dents as long as it plays, which my local game store guarantees. The book/box being in pristine condition does not justify an extra couple of hour's wages. I don't know about the US but in the UK there are massive savings to be made buying used.

So, if you have no issues with the used model, why are you complaining about new purchase incentive (not the kind that Dragon Age came with. That was used purchase punishment)?

No problem with new incentives. I have a problem with withheld content and on disc content but not an EXTRA they include.

Isn't extra content, free if you buy new, the same as withheld content if you buy used?

 

[Daystar Clarion]

snip

you know what. Congratulations. This is probably the worst argument I have ever seen.

"PEOPLE BK DEN BUY USE BUT EXPECT NEW QUALITY" First of all. Who? Who bought used and expected New? I dont believe that was the majority good sir, because that would be completely illogical to expect new quality with used quality.

The your last point, I assume you THINK it ties everything together, but sorry friend. I dont know how to tell you this. Your argument is logically flawed in every way. You have to tie point a to point B. You cant have some random ass story then assert your point at the end and that is your argument. That's nonsense.
Plus no one is even talking about New versus used. We are talking about day one dlc's. You know content on the disc? You know what people expect when they buy used: the fucking game. NOTHING more, nothing less. When shit is being hacked off for profit, we have a big fucking problem here.

It wont be long before we pay $60 for the engine, textures and 1st level then $10 to download each subsequent level (which are all on the disc of course) and we'll still have people paying it, saying it's a brilliant strategy and calling everyone who says it's awful entitled.

Ah yes, slippery slope fallacy, I haven't seen you in a while.

'X has done Y, which means they will eventually do Z'

A pleasure, as always.

Yeah, people used that fallacy when DLC first started getting popular and they said that eventually DLC would be coming out on Day One. We all know how wrong they were..right?

Yeah, except one thing coming to fruition doesn't automatically validate any other theories, it's still a fallacy.

Yeah and every slippery slope isn't a fallacy either.

It's considered a fallacy because there's no evidence to support it. Hindsight doesn't sudenly make supposition from the past less of a fallacy.

No evidence to support it? You don't see any evidence of games being sold in pieces? Look around buddy, it's happening.

You mean games being sold with extra content available should I wish to buy it?

I have yet to play a game that I felt was incomplete because something was 'cut' from it.

Now, that's my own anecdote, and such, does not make it an absolute to anything except my own experience (which a lot of people seem to forget).

Games used to cost 50-60 quid when I was growing up, I thought they would get more expensive, but they actually went down in price.

Since then, I'm very careful about throwing around 'X has done Y, therefore they will do Z'.

That's an interesting thought. If a game was incomplete how would you know it? Aslong as they aren't ruining the ending. You have no way of telling how complete something is. Until you notice how much content is being denied.

Plus play Dragon age origins: where thats that wanker that waits around camp, giving you quest info but no quest until you buy the DLC. Or quest that have markers but you cant start until you buy the dlc. Crazy isn't it? It's there, you just aren't looking hard enough.

I played the Dragon Age DLC. It added nothing to the overall story and did not make my experience richer, it was simply an optional side quest. Granted, unless I buy every DLC for every game I buy, ever, I will not know what I'm missing out on. But in the grand age of the internet, I can check these things out, and as of yet, I've feel I've been forced to buy DLC 'to get the full experience', I've bought it because I like the game and want something more to do with it.

You dont understand the issue. Being "forced" into it is only half the issue. THe fact is, any content on the disc should be fully accessible to everyone. Just because you don't know its there, doesn't excuse the practice. Plus i'd be a kidney that 20% of Me3 is necessary, the rest is sidequests, romances, character loyalties. You know the rpg goodness. I see that this 80% is slowly being threatened. I like games with fluffy goodness. I want it to stay that way. Don't you?

Disk locked content is a scam, there's no doubt about that. But stuff that isn't on the disk? Well that's not part of the product, that's an extra that you may or may not be charged for.

If this Prothean thing ends up being disk locked content, then you're perfectly within your right to complain, but if it isn't, then that's an extra.

So Bioware could have just withheld it from the disc so it would pass that test but it would still be content that could have been on the disc because it was ready to go when the disc went to press. The disc doesn't go to press until it's passed certification...right?

From what I've read, the DLC was made after the game went to print.

They could be lying, I'll never know, but I'm not the type of person to start throwing around accusations without proof.

If this whole Prothean thing was planned to be in the game from the very start but then held back so they could milk some more cash out of the consumer, that's pretty low, but like I said, I'd need proof before I start blaming anyone.

Hmm, seems that law degree has made rather impartial. Impartiality is a nice thing, makes me feel...

Fair.

 

[Epona]

snip

you know what. Congratulations. This is probably the worst argument I have ever seen.

"PEOPLE BK DEN BUY USE BUT EXPECT NEW QUALITY" First of all. Who? Who bought used and expected New? I dont believe that was the majority good sir, because that would be completely illogical to expect new quality with used quality.

The your last point, I assume you THINK it ties everything together, but sorry friend. I dont know how to tell you this. Your argument is logically flawed in every way. You have to tie point a to point B. You cant have some random ass story then assert your point at the end and that is your argument. That's nonsense.
Plus no one is even talking about New versus used. We are talking about day one dlc's. You know content on the disc? You know what people expect when they buy used: the fucking game. NOTHING more, nothing less. When shit is being hacked off for profit, we have a big fucking problem here.

It wont be long before we pay $60 for the engine, textures and 1st level then $10 to download each subsequent level (which are all on the disc of course) and we'll still have people paying it, saying it's a brilliant strategy and calling everyone who says it's awful entitled.

Ah yes, slippery slope fallacy, I haven't seen you in a while.

'X has done Y, which means they will eventually do Z'

A pleasure, as always.

Yeah, people used that fallacy when DLC first started getting popular and they said that eventually DLC would be coming out on Day One. We all know how wrong they were..right?

Yeah, except one thing coming to fruition doesn't automatically validate any other theories, it's still a fallacy.

Yeah and every slippery slope isn't a fallacy either.

It's considered a fallacy because there's no evidence to support it. Hindsight doesn't sudenly make supposition from the past less of a fallacy.

No evidence to support it? You don't see any evidence of games being sold in pieces? Look around buddy, it's happening.

You mean games being sold with extra content available should I wish to buy it?

I have yet to play a game that I felt was incomplete because something was 'cut' from it.

Now, that's my own anecdote, and such, does not make it an absolute to anything except my own experience (which a lot of people seem to forget).

Games used to cost 50-60 quid when I was growing up, I thought they would get more expensive, but they actually went down in price.

Since then, I'm very careful about throwing around 'X has done Y, therefore they will do Z'.

That's an interesting thought. If a game was incomplete how would you know it? Aslong as they aren't ruining the ending. You have no way of telling how complete something is. Until you notice how much content is being denied.

Plus play Dragon age origins: where thats that wanker that waits around camp, giving you quest info but no quest until you buy the DLC. Or quest that have markers but you cant start until you buy the dlc. Crazy isn't it? It's there, you just aren't looking hard enough.

I played the Dragon Age DLC. It added nothing to the overall story and did not make my experience richer, it was simply an optional side quest. Granted, unless I buy every DLC for every game I buy, ever, I will not know what I'm missing out on. But in the grand age of the internet, I can check these things out, and as of yet, I've feel I've been forced to buy DLC 'to get the full experience', I've bought it because I like the game and want something more to do with it.

You dont understand the issue. Being "forced" into it is only half the issue. THe fact is, any content on the disc should be fully accessible to everyone. Just because you don't know its there, doesn't excuse the practice. Plus i'd be a kidney that 20% of Me3 is necessary, the rest is sidequests, romances, character loyalties. You know the rpg goodness. I see that this 80% is slowly being threatened. I like games with fluffy goodness. I want it to stay that way. Don't you?

Disk locked content is a scam, there's no doubt about that. But stuff that isn't on the disk? Well that's not part of the product, that's an extra that you may or may not be charged for.

If this Prothean thing ends up being disk locked content, then you're perfectly within your right to complain, but if it isn't, then that's an extra.

So Bioware could have just withheld it from the disc so it would pass that test but it would still be content that could have been on the disc because it was ready to go when the disc went to press. The disc doesn't go to press until it's passed certification...right?

From what I've read, the DLC was made after the game went to print.

They could be lying, I'll never know, but I'm not the type of person to start throwing around accusations without proof.

If this whole Prothean thing was planned to be in the game from the very start but then held back so they could milk some more cash out of the consumer, that's pretty low, but like I said, I'd need proof before I start blaming anyone.

Hmm, seems that law degree has made rather impartial. Impartiality is a nice thing, makes me feel...

Fair.

Well, I guess so long as they keep the official evidence out of the public eye, they're fine. I, on the other hand, find it hard to believe that Shale wasn't ripped out of DAO and I don't have any official evidence.

 

[cookyy2k]

It depends on if you actually want whatever DLC they're throwing in. Also I couldn't care less about scratched or dents as long as it plays, which my local game store guarantees. The book/box being in pristine condition does not justify an extra couple of hour's wages. I don't know about the US but in the UK there are massive savings to be made buying used.

So, if you have no issues with the used model, why are you complaining about new purchase incentive (not the kind that Dragon Age came with. That was used purchase punishment)?

No problem with new incentives. I have a problem with withheld content and on disc content but not an EXTRA they include.

Isn't extra content, free if you buy new, the same as withheld content if you buy used?

Extra stuff is completely added and of no real game play significance, withheld is there but locked off or an extra that is of consequence. If you get a free DLC code with a new game and you download something that can be bought if used great, if you get bits of the disc locked off unless you type in a code given only to new then that's awful.

On disc "DLC" is as good an incentive as DRM to pirates. They would get a better product and it would be free! I never partake in piracy, but I do buy used and I can certainly see how these things encourage the people who do pirate.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

snip

you know what. Congratulations. This is probably the worst argument I have ever seen.

"PEOPLE BK DEN BUY USE BUT EXPECT NEW QUALITY" First of all. Who? Who bought used and expected New? I dont believe that was the majority good sir, because that would be completely illogical to expect new quality with used quality.

The your last point, I assume you THINK it ties everything together, but sorry friend. I dont know how to tell you this. Your argument is logically flawed in every way. You have to tie point a to point B. You cant have some random ass story then assert your point at the end and that is your argument. That's nonsense.
Plus no one is even talking about New versus used. We are talking about day one dlc's. You know content on the disc? You know what people expect when they buy used: the fucking game. NOTHING more, nothing less. When shit is being hacked off for profit, we have a big fucking problem here.

It wont be long before we pay $60 for the engine, textures and 1st level then $10 to download each subsequent level (which are all on the disc of course) and we'll still have people paying it, saying it's a brilliant strategy and calling everyone who says it's awful entitled.

Ah yes, slippery slope fallacy, I haven't seen you in a while.

'X has done Y, which means they will eventually do Z'

A pleasure, as always.

Yeah, people used that fallacy when DLC first started getting popular and they said that eventually DLC would be coming out on Day One. We all know how wrong they were..right?

Yeah, except one thing coming to fruition doesn't automatically validate any other theories, it's still a fallacy.

Yeah and every slippery slope isn't a fallacy either.

It's considered a fallacy because there's no evidence to support it. Hindsight doesn't sudenly make supposition from the past less of a fallacy.

No evidence to support it? You don't see any evidence of games being sold in pieces? Look around buddy, it's happening.

You mean games being sold with extra content available should I wish to buy it?

I have yet to play a game that I felt was incomplete because something was 'cut' from it.

Now, that's my own anecdote, and such, does not make it an absolute to anything except my own experience (which a lot of people seem to forget).

Games used to cost 50-60 quid when I was growing up, I thought they would get more expensive, but they actually went down in price.

Since then, I'm very careful about throwing around 'X has done Y, therefore they will do Z'.

That's an interesting thought. If a game was incomplete how would you know it? Aslong as they aren't ruining the ending. You have no way of telling how complete something is. Until you notice how much content is being denied.

Plus play Dragon age origins: where thats that wanker that waits around camp, giving you quest info but no quest until you buy the DLC. Or quest that have markers but you cant start until you buy the dlc. Crazy isn't it? It's there, you just aren't looking hard enough.

I played the Dragon Age DLC. It added nothing to the overall story and did not make my experience richer, it was simply an optional side quest. Granted, unless I buy every DLC for every game I buy, ever, I will not know what I'm missing out on. But in the grand age of the internet, I can check these things out, and as of yet, I've feel I've been forced to buy DLC 'to get the full experience', I've bought it because I like the game and want something more to do with it.

You dont understand the issue. Being "forced" into it is only half the issue. THe fact is, any content on the disc should be fully accessible to everyone. Just because you don't know its there, doesn't excuse the practice. Plus i'd be a kidney that 20% of Me3 is necessary, the rest is sidequests, romances, character loyalties. You know the rpg goodness. I see that this 80% is slowly being threatened. I like games with fluffy goodness. I want it to stay that way. Don't you?

Disk locked content is a scam, there's no doubt about that. But stuff that isn't on the disk? Well that's not part of the product, that's an extra that you may or may not be charged for.

If this Prothean thing ends up being disk locked content, then you're perfectly within your right to complain, but if it isn't, then that's an extra.

So Bioware could have just withheld it from the disc so it would pass that test but it would still be content that could have been on the disc because it was ready to go when the disc went to press. The disc doesn't go to press until it's passed certification...right?

From what I've read, the DLC was made after the game went to print.

They could be lying, I'll never know, but I'm not the type of person to start throwing around accusations without proof.

If this whole Prothean thing was planned to be in the game from the very start but then held back so they could milk some more cash out of the consumer, that's pretty low, but like I said, I'd need proof before I start blaming anyone.

Hmm, seems that law degree has made rather impartial. Impartiality is a nice thing, makes me feel...

Fair.

Well, I guess so long as they keep the official evidence out of the public eye, they're fine. I, on the other hand, find it hard to believe that Shale wasn't ripped out of DAO and I don't have any official evidence.

You're perfectly within your right to think that, just so long as you don't think less of those who actually need evidence to believe something.

 

[cookyy2k]

From what I've read, the DLC was made after the game went to print.

They could be lying, I'll never know, but I'm not the type of person to start throwing around accusations without proof.

If this whole Prothean thing was planned to be in the game from the very start but then held back so they could milk some more cash out of the consumer, that's pretty low, but like I said, I'd need proof before I start blaming anyone.

Hmm, seems that law degree has made rather impartial. Impartiality is a nice thing, makes me feel...

Fair.

Well as far as I can make out the protean has always been in, as an NPC. The DLC lets you have him as a squad mate.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

From what I've read, the DLC was made after the game went to print.

They could be lying, I'll never know, but I'm not the type of person to start throwing around accusations without proof.

If this whole Prothean thing was planned to be in the game from the very start but then held back so they could milk some more cash out of the consumer, that's pretty low, but like I said, I'd need proof before I start blaming anyone.

Hmm, seems that law degree has made rather impartial. Impartiality is a nice thing, makes me feel...

Fair.

Well as far as I can make out the protean has always been in, as an NPC. The DLC lets you have him as a squad mate.

Indeed, that's what I've been hearing too.

It hardly seems getting worked up over, especially if the Prothean's dialogue and story significance is the same, whether he's joining you for quests or not.

 

[cookyy2k]

From what I've read, the DLC was made after the game went to print.

They could be lying, I'll never know, but I'm not the type of person to start throwing around accusations without proof.

If this whole Prothean thing was planned to be in the game from the very start but then held back so they could milk some more cash out of the consumer, that's pretty low, but like I said, I'd need proof before I start blaming anyone.

Hmm, seems that law degree has made rather impartial. Impartiality is a nice thing, makes me feel...

Fair.

Well as far as I can make out the protean has always been in, as an NPC. The DLC lets you have him as a squad mate.

Indeed, that's what I've been hearing too.

It hardly seems getting worked up over, especially if the Prothean's dialogue and story significance is the same, whether he's joining you for quests or not.

Yeah I don't really see this as such a massive thing. It's just an incentive to buy CE and it's not like it's unavailable to everyone else. If the NPC case is true then you're not missing any story elements or important information by not having the DLC. It'll be at most a few one liners when shooting and a loyalty mission which probably wont contain anything in the way of an epiphany to the story. I'll have time to find out waiting to find a used copy anyway since no money of mine has gone to EA, and nor will it after what they did to poor westwood studios.

 

[Epona]

Which is funny since you've been replying to me pretty reliably, and now suddenly you're lost, and confused? It's not internet arguing, it's high school level debate.
If you're going to lose, do so with dignity, rather than trying to hide behind, "Oh, sorry if I don't pay attention to the childish argument that I'm taking part in".

Are you angry because I don't care who you are? Is it really so hard for you to believe that people read posts, not poster names?

You reply to me, I read it, I don't really care who you are. I know though, you can't imagine that.

 

[Epona]

No. To use the apples to oranges car analgoy, a new car comes with a drive train warranty. A used car does not.
New Alice came with a pass for the old one for free. Used Alice did not.
Incentive is not the same as with held.

It would be more accurate to compare it to a part of the car itself, not the service offered by the manufacturer, atleast for single player content that doesn't need multiplayer servers.

So, it would be like the manufacturer removing the air conditioner once the new buyer sold it.

 

[cookyy2k]

So, it would be like the manufacturer removing the air conditioner once the new buyer sold it.

I did that myself, bloody thing weighs a tonne. Besides which yes it is a good analogy.

 

[Epona]

Are you angry because I don't care who you are? Is it really so hard for you to believe that people read posts, not poster names?

You reply to me, I read it, I don't really care who you are. I know though, you can't imagine that.

I'm sorry, I am now going to take a moment to laugh my ass off at your idiotic conjectures.
*Laughs ass off.*
No, I'm not grilling you for not knowing my name, I'm grilling you for claiming your not even paying attention to what you've been doing for a couple of pages now. I'm grilling you because you're absolutely inconsistent with everything you do, and when you're called on it all you've got it, "U mad bro cause I doesn't know who you is?". I at least take the time to keep track of my arguments and my opponent's counterarguments. You apparently thinking it's beneath you to spare even such a courtesy is quite hilarious actually.
I'm actually starting to enjoy this. It's like talking to an idiot savant, without the savant part.
So please, go ahead, point to where I was, "mad" at you for not knowing my name.

I don't know what to tell you, you are not my opponent. I am talking to everyone in this thread that I respond to, not just you or any other single person.

If you are concentrating on my posts, I'm flattered but that's not the way I do things. Surely you can understand that.

I'll tell you what, from here on out I will try not to respond to you. You win, I lose.

 

[Epona]

I don't know what to tell you, you are not my opponent. I am talking to everyone in this thread that I respond to, not just you or any other single person.

If you are concentrating on my posts, I'm flattered but that's not the way I do things. Surely you can understand that.

I'll tell you what, from here on out I will try not to respond to you. You win, I lose.

Another timeless classic! "I'm responding to everyone here, not you." The bolding was for emphasis. If you are responding to everyone, and you respond to my posts, and you take an opposing stance to my post, you are my opponent in this debate. Otherwise you're just posting for the sake of taking up post space. And that would make you a troll.

Reported for calling me a troll. Now please, feel free to ignore my posts.

 

[Vanilla_Druid]

I suppose, I do not have to worry too much about this since I normally stick with Nintendo systems. I like having the games cost $40-$50 and complete. Sure, the Wii may not be "hardcore" or "manly", but at least I know I will have my money's worth.

That's exactally why I scoff at the Wii.

It isn't MANLY enough for me! I need testosterone-fuled Power fanties FULL of blood and gore to satisfy my mighty manly gaming needs... the fact that I'm a straight female doesn't matter.

GIVE ME VIOLENCE AND TITS!! YEEEEAAAARRRRRGGGHHH!!!!!!

and you know... it's got nothing to do with the fact that my choices would range from over-priced nintendo games to shovelware

I manage to find some titles that are actually quite good such as Tatsunoko vs. Capcom and Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (the Fire Emblem game may be a Nintendo game, but it is 40+ hour game that cost me $50, not a bad deal). I also like the Wiiware and Virtual Console (I know the other systems have stuff like that, but it is much easier to start playing the games). The menus are much easier to navigate and do not hurt my eyes with overly small text (my eye-sight is bad). I do, however, admit that it is harder to find good third-party games for the Wii, so I have a 360 for that. Of course, I usually play my 3DS for the DS has a lot of strategy and JRPGs (which are my favourite genres).

 

[Vault101]

I suppose, I do not have to worry too much about this since I normally stick with Nintendo systems. I like having the games cost $40-$50 and complete. Sure, the Wii may not be "hardcore" or "manly", but at least I know I will have my money's worth.

That's exactally why I scoff at the Wii.

It isn't MANLY enough for me! I need testosterone-fuled Power fanties FULL of blood and gore to satisfy my mighty manly gaming needs... the fact that I'm a straight female doesn't matter.

GIVE ME VIOLENCE AND TITS!! YEEEEAAAARRRRRGGGHHH!!!!!!

and you know... it's got nothing to do with the fact that my choices would range from over-priced nintendo games to shovelware

I manage to find some titles that are actually quite good such as Tatsunoko vs. Capcom and Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (the Fire Emblem game may be a Nintendo game, but it is 40+ hour game that cost me $50, not a bad deal). I also like the Wiiware and Virtual Console (I know the other systems have stuff like that, but it is much easier to start playing the games). The menus are much easier to navigate and do not hurt my eyes with overly small text (my eye-sight is bad). I do, however, admit that it is harder to find good third-party games for the Wii, so I have a 360 for that. Of course, I usually play my 3DS for the DS has a lot of strategy and JRPGs (which are my favourite genres).

and thats fine

I just felt it was a little unfair to dismiss peoples disinterest in the Wii because of some wanky "macho-jock" mindset (like Moviebob in his gameoverthinker vids), when that isnt true at all..it just doesnt cater to my gaming needs

 

[z121231211]

You're entitled to whatever you pay for. And if you seem to be paying for licenses to products, rather than the products themselves, that's your loss. Especially if you're aware of it.

I'm definitely in the "Vote with your wallet" camp.

 

[lacktheknack]

Yes. Yes we are.

See: The "Give Moar Updates" Minecraft DDOS. See also: Piracy. See also: human nature.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Yes. Yes we are. We are making demands and telling the company, the artists who make a product, how they should make their product. We are dictating what we believe to be correct tot he people who make it and threatening the creators. Worst, we are arguing against the owners having rights and instead insisting that any system that the creator uses that doesn't meet our standards is bad. We are entitled assholes.

 

[lacktheknack]

Yes. Yes we are.

See: The "Give Moar Updates" Minecraft DDOS. See also: Piracy. See also: human nature.

to be fair; piracy is about convenience not entitlement. No one thinks they deserve a game free. Atleast the majority don't.

EVERY SINGLE PIRATE I know in real life does.

"Hell no, I'm not paying for that. I'm gonna download it, that's free."

Entitlement at its finest.

 

[jensenthejman]

The title and then question for the pull asked are incredibly misleading and bring me to believe that it was purposefully done so to make your arguement seem stronger, especially when you point out that all of these things are expensive and yet you still buy it.

Seriously, all the people who ***** and then go out and buy the game and all it's DLC annoy the hell out of me. Kind of like the people who complain about DRM and then pirate the game 'in protest.' We've gotten to the point where, even if our arguements are valid, we still can't go without playing the things that piss us off. Because then we'd miss out and that'd be an end of the freaking world to us.

Don't get me wrong. I think some of the things that these companies pull are incredibly unfair to the customer. The effect of which is I'm unlikely to buy future games from them. I'll still buy Mass Effect 3 even if I do understand and kind of agree with the arguement against it (which I'm not going to go into my feelings on Day-1 DLC as that's another thing entirely). But I'm not going to complain because, DLC or not, I expect Mass Effect 3 to be twice the game most others are with enough to keep me going to be more then worth it. Now Dragon Age 3, Or the next IP they come out with? It's not so cut and dry, and this will be remembered as something against them when I go to pick it up.

As for the actual question: Yes. I believe a large portion of the 'gamers' group have entitlement issues. Do we deserve better then we get? I believe that's also yes. I think there's no problem with expecting more from your games unless you go in with unrealistic standards. If you don't like something a company does or a game they put out then the solution is simple. Don't buy from them. Nobody is forcing you to spend money on their product. If enough people actually go without (god forbid) then the companies might actually start listening. As it is now, many gamers still seem to act surprised when companies don't listen to them even though they still buy all the products that company puts out reguardless of what they do.

Pretty much this.