You can be both.GundamSentinel said:
You can personally believe in no supernatural being, while admitting that you can never know for sure.
Boom, Agnostic Athiest.
Poll: Are you religious?
- Thread starter Kilroy17
- Start date
You can personally believe in no supernatural being, while admitting that you can never know for sure.
Boom, Agnostic Athiest.
I'm not getting into all the negative impact organized religion has on our modern society (while admitting it's vital role in getting us to this point, by giving ppl a sense of community, purpose, and a set of morals), and the fact that religion no longer serves any purpose, as all the benefits it provides (which I admit it does) can now be provided by non-religious sources, without having to delude people into believing things without proof.
Instead I'm going straight to the point:
I see no logic behind any of the almost endless amounts of religions I know have existed throughout time (I'm a big fan of ancient mythology, but I don't understand how modern religious people can dismiss them as untrue without dismissing their own religions).
I don't understand how you can pick one out only of these religions, and be more convinced by it than the others (they are all based on the same amount of proof: The existence of the universe, and some personal illusions now and then).
And finally, I don't understand why anyone would worship these selfish, egotistical, sometimes mass-murdering (as is the case with the three versions of today's most popular monotheistic deity) gods (Personally, I would fight them. I haven't seen a single deity that deserves our worship, then again I don't think anyone could earn that, but they all expect it simply by virtue of existing.)
Instead I'm going straight to the point:
I see no logic behind any of the almost endless amounts of religions I know have existed throughout time (I'm a big fan of ancient mythology, but I don't understand how modern religious people can dismiss them as untrue without dismissing their own religions).
I don't understand how you can pick one out only of these religions, and be more convinced by it than the others (they are all based on the same amount of proof: The existence of the universe, and some personal illusions now and then).
And finally, I don't understand why anyone would worship these selfish, egotistical, sometimes mass-murdering (as is the case with the three versions of today's most popular monotheistic deity) gods (Personally, I would fight them. I haven't seen a single deity that deserves our worship, then again I don't think anyone could earn that, but they all expect it simply by virtue of existing.)
I'm mostly non-religious.
The thought of having a god would be nice, but there's no true evidence supporting the fact that there is one.
The thought of having a god would be nice, but there's no true evidence supporting the fact that there is one.
Not really religious... maybe agnostic but leaning more towards not religious. I'd like to think there is an afterlife but wishful thinking doesn't make any truth or firm belief- however the concept of an entity templating how a world will form and sitting back and watching it grow (like planting a garden) does interest me.
I really love alot of the mythology regarding Christian religion though; there is so much power in pure good vs pure evil, in the story of eden, a war of angels and the fall of Lucifer. Its really quite cool and dominates alot of how I think in terms of story development.
I really love alot of the mythology regarding Christian religion though; there is so much power in pure good vs pure evil, in the story of eden, a war of angels and the fall of Lucifer. Its really quite cool and dominates alot of how I think in terms of story development.
No. Science.
Not that I feel the onus is upon me; to prove that the magic man in the sky exists.
Not that I feel the onus is upon me; to prove that the magic man in the sky exists.
This debate says it all regarding the catholics...
http://youtu.be/DmFYpuYh6w0
http://youtu.be/Lv9ULxpWgPA
http://youtu.be/loalQfU58Uo
http://youtu.be/lg2yjIITrlM
http://youtu.be/kVrIcj2-0Xg
But if you feel that this sort of thinking doesn't apply to ALL religions (and I think we forget that we are talking about more than just the "big 3") then you are mistaken.
Even the nice fluffy religions such as wicca and buddhism can be potentially harmful (if most often to a lesser degree).
They ask for your money, be it the collection plate or the merchandise or the dreamcatchers and incense.
They steer your life. Get married/Go veggie/submit to auditing.
In fact, lets focus on the veggie thing.
My vegetarian friends who turn veggie because they have seen the way animals are treated and processed I can understand, hell even the ones that still are ok with fish (sorta, cos it still shows a level of ignorance).
But as soon as you start dropping references to that damage to the earth mother then your reasons become invalid.
Now apply the same thinking to marriage or censorship or even the reason to why the shops are closed on sundays...
Ah but hey, that's just the institution of the church...
If you choose to believe in a mystical being that is up to you, but you knock on my door or approach me in the street then be prepared for a tirade of abuse... Why? Because I have children and I will not have their IQ lowered by backward thinking people like you.
But hey, that is just my opinion, you're entitled to yours.
http://youtu.be/DmFYpuYh6w0
http://youtu.be/Lv9ULxpWgPA
http://youtu.be/loalQfU58Uo
http://youtu.be/lg2yjIITrlM
http://youtu.be/kVrIcj2-0Xg
But if you feel that this sort of thinking doesn't apply to ALL religions (and I think we forget that we are talking about more than just the "big 3") then you are mistaken.
Even the nice fluffy religions such as wicca and buddhism can be potentially harmful (if most often to a lesser degree).
They ask for your money, be it the collection plate or the merchandise or the dreamcatchers and incense.
They steer your life. Get married/Go veggie/submit to auditing.
In fact, lets focus on the veggie thing.
My vegetarian friends who turn veggie because they have seen the way animals are treated and processed I can understand, hell even the ones that still are ok with fish (sorta, cos it still shows a level of ignorance).
But as soon as you start dropping references to that damage to the earth mother then your reasons become invalid.
Now apply the same thinking to marriage or censorship or even the reason to why the shops are closed on sundays...
Ah but hey, that's just the institution of the church...
If you choose to believe in a mystical being that is up to you, but you knock on my door or approach me in the street then be prepared for a tirade of abuse... Why? Because I have children and I will not have their IQ lowered by backward thinking people like you.
But hey, that is just my opinion, you're entitled to yours.
Someone may have already recited this quote but i cba reading through 15 pages of ultimately futile argument so:
"Having a religion is like having a penis: Its perfectly ok to have one but i'd rather you didn't rub it in my face, and i certainly don't want you to shove it down my children's throats."
"Having a religion is like having a penis: Its perfectly ok to have one but i'd rather you didn't rub it in my face, and i certainly don't want you to shove it down my children's throats."
I think religion is crazy.
People blindly accept their religion without proof or logic to back it up. Religion has become a huge source of conflict and is really doing much more damage to the world than it is good.
I find it funny that when you look at any extinct civilisation, the greeks, egyptians, mayans, etc, they all had religions which society now regards as nothing more than superstition or fable. Yet the same people who scoff at the extinct religions of these civilisations don't seem to realise that the only difference between their religion and that of an extinct religion is that their superstitions and fables haven't yet managed to die out.
For example, if christianity hadn't become such a dominant religion via conquest and indoctrination over the milenia we would be treating it just like any other belief system. A superstitious fable of a time long past that has no relevance to todays society.
People blindly accept their religion without proof or logic to back it up. Religion has become a huge source of conflict and is really doing much more damage to the world than it is good.
I find it funny that when you look at any extinct civilisation, the greeks, egyptians, mayans, etc, they all had religions which society now regards as nothing more than superstition or fable. Yet the same people who scoff at the extinct religions of these civilisations don't seem to realise that the only difference between their religion and that of an extinct religion is that their superstitions and fables haven't yet managed to die out.
For example, if christianity hadn't become such a dominant religion via conquest and indoctrination over the milenia we would be treating it just like any other belief system. A superstitious fable of a time long past that has no relevance to todays society.
EDIT: oh wow I fucked up and hit the post button mid sentencebrom0220 said:1. I am, sadly, not far enough in my studies to count myself as an authority on the creation of the universe, so until evidence proves otherwise, I believe the Big Bang Theory is correct. As for what happened before the Big Bang, I am not knowledgeable about "M" Theory, (or in other words I am ignorant concerning "M" Theorymajor_chaos said:) so I would suggest you read up on it if you have the time, which I sadly don't. As a recently declared physics major, it will probably come up in one of my classes a few years from now. Before you ask me what evidence there is in support of the Big Bang, I will leave you a few links to some videos of Neil deGrasse Tyson, one of the world's top astrophysicists, a man far more enlightened than me, and far from ignorant on the matter, spelling out some of the evidence science has collected over the years:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSU3SK7UFQM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TZR84Xs_z4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDghQjuqLnI&feature=related
Turns out the Big Bang Theory is only a theory in the same sense gravity is. The same could be said of evolution. I guess my point is, if you don't know something, ask someone who does, if no one does, try to figure it out on your own. You may have just ended up asking the wrong scientists after all.
2. I have seen stories of people wanting legal action because of religious symbols, but the reason I've seen used most often is that the symbols would offend people of other religions as well as atheists. I haven't even heard of stories like that in a long time though. Now, I mostly get wind of stories about people protesting that schools aren't teaching creationism in science class or something like that. Which brings me to your second question. I've seen the reverse quite a bit, but I've never even heard of atheists picketing or protesting outside of a church or synagogue or other religious institution. Most of the atheists I've heard of mainly want to keep religion separated from science and politics. And when you consider all of the hatred projected towards Islam and its followers over the last couple of years, that's a good idea. Maybe there are just more pushy atheists in your area, but when you consider that there are less atheists than religious people overall, I doubt you would find that there are more pushy atheists in the world than pushy religious people in the world.
3. Touche, salesman. Human nature means atrocities will be committed with or without religion, and like science or knowledge in general, religion can be used for good or evil. Personally, I find religion unnecessary for morality, as you don't have to be religious to do good or bad in the world. This does not change the fact that religion is still a terrifyingly effective tool for manipulating people into doing evil. To quote one of my favorite fictional characters: "There's nothing worse than a monster that thinks he's right with God." I suppose the same could be said of science, maybe, but science does more good for the world, and whatever good religion does (charities, preaching tolerance and love, etc.), it is entirely possible to accomplish without praying to a god, dividing people into believers and non-believers, or going to a place of worship on a weekly basis. While removing religion wouldn't stop every war or atrocity in the world, it would lessen the overall suffering and death of the human race by quite a bit, or at least remove a very effective tool used for evil from the hands of evil men and make sure they have a harder time getting what they want. Removing science on the other hand, would be very bad for the world, and would bring back the Dark Ages. I guess the main problem I have with religion is that most of its various tenets can be reduced to "Don't be a dick." and "If you don't believe in the same imaginary friend I do, you will burn for all eternity regardless of how wonderful a person you are and how much good you did for the world." The first one is basic human decency, which you don't need any god for, and the second one just makes whatever deity is in charge look like a dick, which clashes with the loving, just, understanding, merciful God I used to hear about growing up. And let's face it, if there is a God, and he is a dick, he doesn't deserve worship, he deserves to be held accountable for his misdeeds and should atone for them.
4. I am curious as to what evidence you have of Christianity being closest to the truth. Science has disproved much of the Bible, which contradicts itself on many occasions, and even if you are not supposed to take the Bible literally, shouldn't the foundational document for billions of people worldwide be a lot less flawed? I guess you didn't watch the videos I left either, because as the guy who makes them points out, Pascal's Wager is basically like taking out a fire insurance policy on your soul, and wouldn't an all-knowing God know you were just playing it safe instead of truly believing in him?
I'm sorry if I've come across as hostile or insulting at all. I have been giving this topic a lot of thought lately and I am very curious as to what evidence there is to prove any of Earth's current religions right. I don't mean to offend.
On a different note, do you know how to embed videos? I'm getting tired of just copy/pasting links.
Wow, last time I looked at this thread it had only 6 pages.
EDIT again: fixed it
first off don't worry nothing you have said came across as hostile or insulting which is unusual for these threads, and in turn hope I don't seem hostile either. second unfortunately no I do not know how to embed videos as for the points of debate:
1. I more or less understand the the big bang theory, it's the what comes before that no one seems to have any explanation for that is any less fantastical than region, but I've never heard of this "M theory" so I will look that up at some point.
2. I haven't heard about protests over school curriculum in a while but I admit that they are a mockery of religion when they do happen. as for people worring about something offending another religion is why they suddenly feel the need to be defenders of a faith they reject? part of is that I don't understand way people get offended so easily anymore, I'm a right-wing conservative christian uber-nerd so naturally I get ridiculed quite often but it never bothers me and I would never want anyone to restrict others for the sake of my ego. I'm not quite sure why you bought up discrimination against islam unless your trying to say that it is because of of other religions which seems like a stretch, it seems more likely that discrimination against islam has to do with fear about terrorism. for my last point I should have clarified that I meant "more pushy atheists than pushy Christians" I am aware that some other religions can be consistently very aggressive and pushy (i.e the Jehovah's witnesses)
3. it seems somewhat contradictory that in the same point you mention the nature of man is evil but then say that man is essentially good and that religion is unnecessary to counter the nature of man instead we can all just decide to be nice, which brings me to an honest question: with nothing but cold logic why should I have any morals? if I rely want to why shouldn't I just go nuts and do whatever I want? there is no consequence for evil all I have to do is kill my self and i get away with no penalty, and if there is no higher purpose for my life it doesn't matter if I end it. the point of that being that I believe that people are unlikely to behave without some threat of higher punishment. I also wonder what these crimes that God needs to be held accountable for are. finally I don't think that the end of current religions would slow down evil people much at all as without and established god to try and bend to their ends they would simply elevate themselves to the position of "god" (happens in many cults)
4. over simplified answer: age, number of believers, the dead sea scrolls, the Biblical creation account being much less like something Disney would come up with, the endurance of the faith under constant threat, other things. I,m not sure what parts of the bible science could possibly disprove except the creation account which many counter with the day-age theory which allows evolution and God to coexist. as for the argument about contradictions in the bible i,m no theologian so its unlike I could directly counter many specific examples you could present but I have had debates with people who are and many of these contradictions actually aren't, part of the problem being that the bible doesn't translate perfectly into common modern languages.
i'll end with a thank you as I actually enjoy debates with people who are reasonable instead of just getting angry when there viewpoint is challenged, which are the types who do more for the other side of the argument that their own
This. I'm so sick of people making this mistake.Krall said:
OT: No, I'm an atheist, agnostic, and anti-theist.
I'm an atheist by definition. I don't believe in a "theist" god, or in other words, a god that is a conscient, interviening and simpathetic beeing. Sure, you can join Einstein and say that god is the laws of physics, but that's just poetry for me.
Oh, and I'm an anti-theist too.
Oh, and I'm an anti-theist too.
Not really. I went to a Catholic sixth form college to do my A-levels and my mums side of the family didn't talk to me for two years as they are firmly in the protestant camp. I don't personally care what religion someone is in, but don't look down on someone else because it doesn't conform with your sensibilities. As long as it gives someone a little bit of comfort and security, who are you to try and undermine it?