Poll: Battlestar ending - what do you think?

[Elim Garak]

I figured that's what it was but you just basically explained it.

They made emotional decisions. Baltar was a scientist and then got all preachy and you though "I'm not preachy"

Baltar I understand - his speeches made me cringe, but I can see how they twisted him through years of psychological torture. He at least tried to be logical. Most others didn't.

A show where everyone made cold hard logical choices would be incredibly boring. That's why they never put too many Vulcans together in the shows.

I disagree. Just because you are logical does not mean that your actions make sense to other people. Does not mean that you are good. It all depends on the premise from which you start, and on your opinions and prejudices.

 

[Elim Garak]

The most honest, useful thing you've said this whole time.

I take exception to that - I was honest throughout the entire thread. Useful? That depends on your definition.

Also, direct proof that everyone has been wasting their time with you.

We might as well have a poll titled "Filet Mignon - what do you think?" and then have the first post contain an explanation along the lines of "I hate beef."

LOL, believe what you will. I have very clear reasons for disliking the show. And if you look at the poll, about 30% of the people agree with me - agree that the show sucked, or that they didn't like it.

 

[Elim Garak]

In case you missed the entire genre, deux ex machina is a staple of the genre, in fact, its part of the appeal. If you can't get past that I would recommend that you never watch anything relating to science fiction ever again.

Riiight. How much religion was there in Star Trek? In Stargate? In B5? Terminator? Dr. Who? Serenity? In many there were god-like beings that were very powerful, but actual religious deities that could not be explained by their very definition? Nope. Throughout all of those shows there was an idea that while the beings are extremely advanced, they are not magic - what they do can be explained through science. Mathematics, physics, etc. Their actions can be achieved through various levels of technology.

There was no such thing in BSG. Their whole thing is that "god" did it - and that's it. Not even a hit of rational explanation or scientific perspective. If somebody god-like appeared in the other shows, it was quickly explained that he was just a dude with a hologram projector, or something to that effect.

You apparently live in some kind of alternate dimension where complete predictability is a virtue rather than something to be crucified for. Demanding a story (and by extension the characters) be completely understandable 100% of the time is not only ludicrous in the extreme, but its also completely unrealistic. You might as well complain that real life isn't completely predictable.

OK, you just switched topics on me. We were talking about religion, and you suddenly started describing my problem with emotional irrationality of the characters themselves. I already explained to a bunch of people that just because somebody is rational in his or her frame of reference, does not mean that the person is predictable - simply because I don't know that frame of reference in detail, or the various minute actions that influence most decisions.

 

[Antidamacus]

... Any of it? Shared halucinations?

The only thing that requires a "god did it" explanation. What bothers you about it? That it isn't explained in scientific detail or that it's not really possible in this world?

God talk?

Talking about god doesn't stand to reason? Even though people do it all the time?

"angels? Ghosts? Prophecies?

Alright, are you mad they didn't explain where they came from, or that they are there?

The answer is given, do you just not like it or just don't think they explained it enough?

Yup, my kind of guy. Cavil was the only one though - the tin cans were monotheists. But they were my favorite part, pretty much. Cavil was rather too emotional, IMHO, but I can see his point.

And everyone else hated them. Because people don't want to be robots who live their lives based on mathematical formulas. That's going to take some getting used to for you I supposed.

Robots that look like people are very close - didn't you watch the very end? Biological machines - simply a higher level of technology. Faster than light travel? Plausible and explained as part of triumph of intellect - of human mind over hockey religions. Paradigm shifts happen, thanks to science. Not thanks to bowing down to a bunch of stone age deities.

And how do you know this god (not the god really, just for this show) isn't just some further advancement of science that our stone age brains haven't figured out yet?

LOL, I didn't say that. But religion takes away human curiosity. Here, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins

I've read Richard Dawkins, and you're sidestepping the point that religious people can't make scientific breakthroughs.

Yes, much better - because that explanation would be rooted in reality. "God" is not an explanation - it is an excuse to not explain things. Why is the sky blue? God wants it to be so. Why does it rain? God did it. Etc.

Aliens are reality? Since when?

In short - yes. The world has to and does make sense. It follows certain rules. The fact that the show's creators decided that their world does not make sense and does not follow laws of nature and science really annoys me. And makes me feel that the show sucks.

Most of that show is untested, unknown and undescribed science fiction.

So you'll accept that because it could possibly be tested, regardless of whether or not it's actually possible.

Robots that look like people, faster than light, giant spaceships like that, you accept those without thought because they feel sciency. Why wouldn't a mythical god and angels also be lumped in with the "stuff we can't test for yet but we'll go with it cause it's fiction"?

 

[Antidamacus]

Riiight. How much religion was there in Star Trek? In Stargate? In B5? Terminator? Dr. Who? Serenity? In many there were god-like beings that were very powerful, but actual religious deities that could not be explained by their very definition? Nope. Throughout all of those shows there was an idea that while the beings are extremely advanced, they are not magic - what they do can be explained through science. Mathematics, physics, etc. Their actions can be achieved through various levels of technology.

So the problem isn't the god like beings, it's that they didn't spell it out for you?

There was no such thing in BSG. Their whole thing is that "god" did it - and that's it. Not even a hit of rational explanation or scientific perspective. If somebody god-like appeared in the other shows, it was quickly explained that he was just a dude with a hologram projector, or something to that effect.

And I'm sure the other shows beat them up because of it. You're not mad that these things happen, you're just mad the writers didn't sit down with a whiteboard and explain the physics and such that they made up in their heads to make it work.

I would much rather they not spend time coming up with unknown and untestable science to placate your need to a 100% positive answer because we'll be spending another 4 years tearing about stuff they only made to answer questions to give complete plausibility on fiction. Fake stuff that isn't real.

Any reasons or explanations they come up with will be fake, because they aren't real. All the tech on the show is fake, there is no way to test it. You have to take their word that it works, and you eat it all up except for the hokey religious part when you stop and go "whoa, how do I put this a science experiment? This is a cop out!"

 

[kaziard]

just scanning this thread, i think EVERYONE who watched the FULL show start to finish seemed to enjoy it, yet the original poster didnt, the only difference being.....he didnt watch it all. it really doesnt take a genius to see how to end this thread. Elim go and watch the full shebang then start posting, otherwise quit slating the show without fully comprehending it. I started watching it a few months ago on the interweb and i thought it was amazing (just started season 4, tis getin good....had to close my eyes wen it looked like spoilers were appearing though )......plus stop putting LOL at the start of ever paragraph it gets anoying :S

 

[Antidamacus]

It doesn't matter whether he's watched the whole show or not, he won't like it.

It's not pure science all the time. Some things aren't explained in minute detail.

The fact that the people acted like people and not machines AND that they didn't have a physics class to explain everything throws him for a loop.

 

[Elim Garak]

You seem to think that nobody passes on their knowledge to latter generations and that the humans are doomed to extinction.

No, I think that without a persistent medium knowledge disappears.

Even the most advanced of technologies can be built with only the most rudimentary of equipment.

Umm... No. You are wrong. That's all there is to it. You can't build a computer if all you have is a hammer. You can't even build a steam engine if all you have is a hammer. You need nails, rivvets, raw materials, steel, work shops, a smithy, not to mention the knowledge and skills of how to put these things together. Even if you plopped these guys in the middle of a middle-age village they would be in trouble - because they don't know how to milk cows. They have no cows. They don't know how to farm. They don't know how to make cloth for clothes. Etc.

These guys knew nothing about basic agriculture, metallurgy, animal husbandry, or any of the other things that you need to know in order to create a middle age society. They threw away the tools they could have used to build even a bronze age technical base. With what they have, they could have climbed to bronze age in a couple of generations - if they stayed together. Maybe. Even that is a stretch.

Your arguments are now getting pretty petty and pointless. Nitpicking the show into extinction does not make your points any more valid.

Dude, your arguments are getting repetitive - in that you are attacking my argument's existence instead of their logic. You don't have a leg to stand on and you know it.

 

[Elim Garak]

Remember the first microscope? The first telescope? The first airplane?

All of these objects are incredibly simplistic and all of these things can by built from the objects I have lying around my house.

LOL, that's right - they SEEM simplistic. And you can build them because you have quite advanced materials lying around your house. They weren't in a house - they were in complete wilderness. In order to build a microscope they would need:

1. A smithy, and raw ores or materials.
2. Advanced metalurgical knowledge of how to make the metal into microscope housing.
2. Glassworks.
3. Techniques that you need to apply to the glass in order to build the microscope. Do you know how to make clear glass, for example? How to form it into the right shape?

If you disagree, why don't you go out into the woods and build me a microscope out of raw materials. Or show me somebody who has done that. Just to build a smithy and gain the right knowledge of how to operate it they would need 10-20 years.

Your suspension of disbelief seems all fucked up. If you can't get around these things, why did you watch it in the first place?

I didn't - that's what I said in the first post. I skipped most of the show because I couldn't stand it. My hope was that it would become sane at the end, and would give a rational explanation. Instead I got anti-science and weird religion/spiritualism.

If you liked someone elses thoughts on how the show ended, then go make your own show, see how well it does.

I don't need to make another show - there have been plenty that were an antithesis in terms of the things that I hated about BSG. Star Trek, Stargate, etc. Anti-religion, scientific progress, fun, funny, compelling characters, etc.

You really made it clear that you pretty much hated the show from the beginning. That in itself I can understand (even respect, marginally), but then you came back? This proves you are disqualified in forming opinions about the show, as you didn't really even see it. Things like, "The characters are stupid because they made choices I wouldn't have made," have absolutely no bearing on a discussion about the merits/flaws of a subjective thing like a television show. Its like hating a painting because it uses a color you don't like.

Yup, and that makes total sense to me. Except for one problem - interpretations of paintings are subjective. A TV show is objective - it can have (and this one does have) a specific message. The message of this particular show appears to be to become a Luddite. To start to believe in various superstitions, throw away technology, and go live in the woods. No thank you, pass. I am guessing you won't do that either.[/quote]

On a side note, I would like to know where you get this idea that a culturally/socially advanced civilization would just utterly devolve. Its totally pointless conjecture, rooted in bullshit.

Umm... Yea. Not so much. The problem is that at the end of the show they are NOT a civilization - they are small bunches of people with basically the clothes on their backs. Go look up the definition of the word "civilization". A tiny group of people, with no means of support, cut off from an actual civilization?

Also, consider that this is supposed to be on our Earth. There are no towering cities left over from 150,000 years ago. No pyramids. No houses. No walls. No artifacts. If the society they created had prospered, where is it? It had no enemies, no barbarian hordes which could have stood against them and defeated them.

 

[data_not_found]

Sorry, but if you didn't watch the whole thing, your opinion kind of (completely) invalid. If you watched the whole series, you would know the context of the religion(s), and then realize that its totally appropriate.

Real religion is never appropriate in science fiction. Faith is, talking about religion is, believing in stuff is, but actual religious crap that happens? That moves things directly into the realm of fantasy.

You can't just sit there for a couple of episodes and then say, "Oh he talks about God, this show is too religious."

No, it wasn't just talking about god. It is the head "angels" the visions, the prophecies, etc. From what I gather there were even more dumb things in there.

I assume that you are referring to the scenes where Baltar is preaching. If you had watched the show, you would know why he became a religious figure.

Nope. I don't care that he is preaching - I understand the kind of pressures he has been under. That sort of crap can twist a man in strange ways. I don't begrudge him his beliefs (not too much anyway).

What I do care is that there were "real" religious things happening. That is pretty much pushing a concept of spirituality and the idea that gods are real on me. And that rubs me the wrong way.

I don't see why you have such a problem with metaphysics in science fiction. Sure, it's out of place, but it's not like other shows haven't done the same thing, they just always for the cliché "Oh it was just an alien/hallucination caused by (insert made up particle name here)". All BSG did was not use the Ayn Randian no-faith-only-logic-mankind-needs-to-evolve-and-stop-thinking-there-is-god formula that science fiction is so fixated with. Star Wars did the same thing, and remember how awesome that was?

 

[Haliwali]

While watching the show my thoughts went like this-

Spoiler

Starting the attack=O yea, here we go!
Opera House=Hah, that was cool. It makes sense now and was extremely well done.
Right before the download=O frak, this will not end well.
Firefight=O FRAK! O FRAK HOLY FRAKKING FRAK DID THAT SERIOUSLY JUST FRAKKING HAPPEN?! NUKES!
New Earth= What the frak? Where did that come from.
All the conclusions= I need to go to bed but I need to know how this ends.
Very end=What the frak?
Making of= Gorramit, I'll just buy the DVDs...

I just wish they'd explained the angels and Earth.

 

[Elim Garak]

Then obviously anything they brought with them would be completely useless for diseases?

Against viruses? Possibly, although depends on the virus - and if you are able to keep the body alive and help it stay strong during the disease, it may be able to fight it off. Against bacteria? Antibiotics would work quite nicely.

The people who need the pills to live die. Or are you saying the fleet had some kind of magic pill making machine to deal with these new and unknown diseases?

Yes. It is called antibiotics.

Nope. You need a technical base or at least a relatively large labor pool in order to establish these things.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with leaving their tech behind. Did the fleet have manuals on every single occupation and tool and how to make it?

They had knowledge on how to use the tools they had. Which they could have used to:

1. Build simpler tools.
2. Support themselves while they learned to use the simpler tools.

Make up your mind - are you saying that the ships would have been zero help to them in terms of survival? Or would they have been useful?

People do that now all the time.

Do they build villages, farms, and establish industry without any equipment?

How would keeping their tech help with these issues? You're doing a good job of explaining how things would eventually die out but now a good one of explaining how staying with the fleet would solve these problems.

You are asking me how would technology be helpful in various conditions? How they could use technology to find iron ore? Use it to build houses and farms? Use it to collect build that same industry? The closer they come to the level of technology that they know, the easier things would be. Not to mention all the raw materials that they would have.

Not quite. The tools wouldn't last forever, but long enough for them to establish a self-sustaining technological base.

They have one, it's just obviously much slower.

They have one what? What is a slower technological base? Perhaps I should have used a different term - industrial base. Zero, none, nada, don't have one.

They would not be able to build computers, but they would be able to build schools.

If not for the giant spaceships, none of the 38,000 who I'm almost positive went to school would have any idea how to make one.

Huh? They would have no idea how to build one what? Also, are you admitting that the spaceships would actually be useful for something?

A printing press for books.

I'm sure they kick themselves every time they think about how they left the printing press on one of the ships. None of them could have ever figured out movable printed type without a prototype there.

Ah, you are saying that they are retards without a ship. Or outside of a ship. Yes, kind-of. Which only proves that they need the ships.

I don't think they'll need many sewer systems for 38,000 people spread across the globe.

Yes they do - unless they plan to live as nomads, basic hygiene is absolutely necessary for healthy living. Otherwise they die like flies.

They would be able to find sources of raw materials (or use the ships themselves) and use them to build simpler tools. Gunpowder and muzzle loaders. They should be able to use some parts to build electric generators.

If they can make base tools, and already have learned knowledge of more advanced tools, what's the worry?[/quote]

That's the point - you need tools to make other tools! It is very difficult to start with nothing and get to any level of advancement! Tell me, how would they make a plow without anything they brought with them. And not a wooden plow that takes a day to make and lasts another day, a real plow that they can use for weeks or months.

Generators? How do they make wires? Plastic? They didn't bring the tools to make these things with them. I don't know why you think they have the how to books on all this stuff just lying around.

Nope, but they have generators on the ships already. I am sure of that. They just need to rip them out and repurpose them. With the amount of materials they have they should be able to keep a small supply of electricity going for a small town for years, if not decades. During which time they can use the other tools they brought to make wire equipment. Plastic is not necessary for generators, although it helps. Probably millions of miles of wires in the ships - would last for decades. Etc.

So, make up your mind - would the technology on the ships have been useful to them or not? You seem to be saying that it wouldn't have been - and then that it would have been.

 

[Elim Garak]

Again, what we saw and what was said was two different things. And they did survive. On their own terms instead of settling into the cycle they knew was going to happen again if they kept their computers and their ships. Because the majority couldn't trust the rest of the population to let go of advanced tech.

Huh? You lost me.

They tried living with the ships on New Caprica. No one did anything useful - they merely lived on the ships parked on the ground, barely scratching up a living because half of them were glued to the ships that were there. They relied on the fleet remaining above to save their asses everytime something bad happened. Clearly, these people cannot break their cycle if it isn't stripped away from them.

Are you are saying that they realized that they are too dumb and disorganized to be trusted with technology. I don't really buy that, frankly.

I'm not sure why you'd assume that they'd have a short lifespan or forget everything they've learned. Clearly they didn't, or they wouldn't still be around. These people clearly evolved past the 4 foot sickly Europeans who didn't have ANY knowledge of how to govern themselves or any inkling of a better life (or a knowledge of medicine or advanced sciences).

What? What are you talking about - what Europeans? How do you know that 99.99% of them didn't die out, with only a few to surviving pass on their genes? They clearly didn't build any large high-tech civilizations.

 

[Elim Garak]

OK, I give up. You are simply not being rational. You obviously have too much emotion invested in the show to listen to any arguments, up to and including arguing that the ships were both useful and not useful to the refugees.

I know what I saw. I know that I hated what I saw. If you like that sort of thing - go for it. I will stick with Star Trek, B5, Terminator, Dr. Who, Harsh Realm, Stargate, Farscape, Firefly, and all the other sci-fi shows that don't tell me to undress and go live in the woods.

 

[Elim Garak]

I don't see why you have such a problem with metaphysics in science fiction.

I dunno. Must be my communist upbringing. I think Richard Dawkins is simply right that religion is a bad thing.

Sure, it's out of place, but it's not like other shows haven't done the same thing, they just always for the cliché "Oh it was just an alien/hallucination caused by (insert made up particle name here)". All BSG did was not use the Ayn Randian no-faith-only-logic-mankind-needs-to-evolve-and-stop-thinking-there-is-god formula that science fiction is so fixated with.

No, I disagree. The end had an actual anti-scientific bend to it. It clearly implied that science is bad and should be abandoned until humans somehow become wise enough for it. And I am not the only one who thought that - check out this interpretation at IO9 review: link [http://io9.com/5178522/as-battlestar-ends-god-is-in-the-details].

It is possible that I am influenced by all of the connotations to the word God and all that it implies, but if so, it not by much, IMHO.

Star Wars did the same thing, and remember how awesome that was?

Yea, I didn't like that either, although for a different reason - check out this old but very cool essay by David Brin:

link [http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/06/15/brin_main/].

He describes my distaste perfectly - which come to think of it is also rooted in my communist/socialist past.

Anyway, I was on the Star Trek side during my years at alt.startrek.vs.starwars. But at least the Force was given some root in science and technology - the ability could be scanned for, etc. In the books there were even Force detectors, and various devices based on the Force.

 

[Antidamacus]

Against viruses? Possibly, although depends on the virus - and if you are able to keep the body alive and help it stay strong during the disease, it may be able to fight it off. Against bacteria? Antibiotics would work quite nicely.

Someone missed most of the show!

Yes. It is called antibiotics.

Man it's a good thing they have massive supplies of those... oh wait.

They had knowledge on how to use the tools they had. Which they could have used to:

1. Build simpler tools.
2. Support themselves while they learned to use the simpler tools.

Make up your mind - are you saying that the ships would have been zero help to them in terms of survival? Or would they have been useful?

The ships themselves are essentially worthless, save as shelters. They are basically just giant buses. And you can only rip so much off of them before it's just a waste of time and effort.

Do they build villages, farms, and establish industry without any equipment?

Do you think they're just going to use their hands? We've already established they probably took every hand tool on board. I don't think they had any chainsaws or nail guns lying around, and if they did it wasn't many.

You are asking me how would technology be helpful in various conditions? How they could use technology to find iron ore? Use it to build houses and farms? Use it to collect build that same industry? The closer they come to the level of technology that they know, the easier things would be. Not to mention all the raw materials that they would have.

I don't think the ships were chock full of "building house" tech, mostly because on New Caprica after about a year they were all living in tents. Kinda not looking good on the cement mixing and roofing tiles front.

They have one what? What is a slower technological base? Perhaps I should have used a different term - industrial base. Zero, none, nada, don't have one.

They had people and tools. That's all it is. Raw materials at the sites.

Huh? They would have no idea how to build one what? Also, are you admitting that the spaceships would actually be useful for something?

The spaceship would be useful as a building. They had them on New Caprica, and they said "Screw it, we'll build new ones that aren't the same ship I've been in for the last 4 years" I don't blame them.

Ah, you are saying that they are retards without a ship. Or outside of a ship. Yes, kind-of. Which only proves that they need the ships.

No, I'm saying if they wanted to make a printing press, they'll make one. The idea of a printing press isn't all that hard to construct once it's already been made forever.

Yes they do - unless they plan to live as nomads, basic hygiene is absolutely necessary for healthy living. Otherwise they die like flies.

38,000 people spread out throughout the world and you think they spent the time making indoor plumbing?

That's the point - you need tools to make other tools! It is very difficult to start with nothing and get to any level of advancement! Tell me, how would they make a plow without anything they brought with them. And not a wooden plow that takes a day to make and lasts another day, a real plow that they can use for weeks or months.

Didn't you already given me the lengthy process on making metal with basic tools? The one that required absolutely no input from the ships or advanced tech?

Nope, but they have generators on the ships already. I am sure of that. They just need to rip them out and repurpose them. With the amount of materials they have they should be able to keep a small supply of electricity going for a small town for years, if not decades. During which time they can use the other tools they brought to make wire equipment. Plastic is not necessary for generators, although it helps. Probably millions of miles of wires in the ships - would last for decades. Etc.

Running on what? Gas? The ships? I think you give them far too much credit to completely create high level tech from wires and scrap metal.

So, make up your mind - would the technology on the ships have been useful to them or not? You seem to be saying that it wouldn't have been - and then that it would have been.

The ships, the faster than light drives, the communication gear, the fighter parts, are all basically worthless. They need to build houses, farms and such. Nothing on those ships is going to help them get back to agrarian society.

You seem to think they should take the 30 odd ships left, and just make a modern metropolis with them. It's not happening because there wouldn't be enough raw materials and they wouldn't have the technical knowledge, and they would have more important things on their minds, like eating and growing food.

 

[Antidamacus]

I dunno. Must be my communist upbringing. I think Richard Dawkins is simply right that religion is a bad thing.

Ding ding ding

No, I disagree. The end had an actual anti-scientific bend to it. It clearly implied that science is bad and should be abandoned until humans somehow become wise enough for it. And I am not the only one who thought that - check out this interpretation at IO9 review: link [http://io9.com/5178522/as-battlestar-ends-god-is-in-the-details].

The end literally said "what are they going to do with it?" Not "They should never ever touch it again."

It is possible that I am influenced by all of the connotations to the word God and all that it implies, but if so, it not by much, IMHO.

You've already said if it was an alien, you'd be cool with that. So yes, it is the word "god".

 

[jad4400]

The ending and the series was very good, but I got really sad when I watched the Ander's controled fleet crash into the sun ( I kinda wish they had not done that, I wish they had just sent to fleet to orbit pluto or somthing, so that one day, the new humans could use the technology and remember their origins)

I also kinda wish they had explained more about what really happened to Kara ( although I do understand that leaving it ambigious may have been for the best)

It would also be interesting to see what the rebel centurions did with the baseship that was given to them (I would go on an interglactic bar-hopping trip)

 

[Valiance]

OK, I've just watched BSG finale. Suffice it to say that I am glad I missed most of the first season, second season, third season, and most of the fourth. I won't spoil it if you guys like that sort of thing.

I want to know what you guys think.

I don't fucking blame you.

My parents watch this mediocre excuse for "AWESOME SCI-FI," and unfortunately, my dad and I predicted the end, well, during season 1.

OMG TWIST ENDING,

Spoiler

WHAT THEY CALL EARTH ISN'T THE SAME PLANET WE DO

.

Suffice to say, I lol'd and then went back downstairs.

 

[Dele]

Worst parts of the series were those where survival theme was swept aside and they went full-time drama. That being said, I enjoy the idea of a massive ship ran by greenist militant-anarchists and the ending itself was well enough made.