Poll: Bayonetta

[09philj]

Bayonetta is a sexploitation character, but sexploitation is not necessarily sexist.

 

[Something Amyss]

Now I am wondering what the curriculum for that would look like. Does the "video game appreciation" class include a Mario game? There are courses that focus on single genres of music, is there going to be a "history of the FPS" class?

I imagine critical design analyses of a given genre would actually be quite useful for further education.

Well, assuming people cared about the outcome. Looking at the glut of FPS, maybe nto.

 

[Silence]

There is one thing to find out:

Does the game depict her/other woman as lesser to men?

If no, stop this discussion and go home. Clothes and behaviour aren't sexist.

 

[Amir Kondori]

It seems to me that among the people afraid of a woman using her sexuality are tumblr feminists.

 

[Silvanus]

That's because I don't agree with the options the OP has. My answer is: there are more interesting things to analyze in her than the degree of sexism/feminism; and none of them are in the poll.

Righto. You know, there are polls on topics I find terrifically uninteresting-- favourite upholstery brands, for instance, or best methods of stain removal-- and I tend to drop into them to let everyone know I just how uninteresting I find them, and that those people should be making polls about other stuff.

Alternatively, perhaps different people find different topics interesting.

There seems to be far less ambiguity in the motives here than those of Shakespeare or Kipling or similar.

Now who's downplaying games-as-art?!

 

[NPC009]

I'll pick 'I prefer not to see her as a symbol, but as a fun character in a game that's as over-the-top as she is'. Sexuality isn't a bad thing as long as the character is in actual control of it. That's why watching Bayonetta do her thing is fun and creeping on shy anime maidens is, well, creepy. And sure, I got kinda bored of the crotch shots, but the games' heart is in the right place.

Besides, it would be difficult to label her a problem. Though there is still plenty of room for improvement, the 'female protagonists in videogames club' is growing and becoming more diverse every day. Bayonetta is not representing an entire genre in videogaming like Lara Croft used to in the 90s. Bayonetta is just Bayonetta. That's fine. There is and should be room for characters like her.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

On a side-note, I also wonder whether those saying they "play games, don't analyse them" would give a similar response in English class, or film studies. The teacher asks you whether you consider Shylock to be a comic villain or a tragic victim; would you answer, "Hah! I read books, don't analyse them"?

Honestly I really felt this way at school. I understood how connotations were drawn from Shakespeare, but a some of the observations that my English literature teacher made took some innocuous details and made them significant. She was more than keen to point out that red curtains represent the protagonists inner rage, but when I said Romeo and Juliet was actually a comedy, noooo that was too far!

It seems to me that among the people afraid of a woman using her sexuality are tumblr feminists.

There are a particular set of "femenists" who are more than happy for women to dress and look however they want as long as they aren't models, strippers or pornstars. It just so happens that Tumblr houses a lot of these women, giving actual femenism a bad name. What a twist.

 

[Silvanus]

Honestly I really felt this way at school. I understood how connotations were drawn from Shakespeare, but a some of the observations that my English literature teacher made took some innocuous details and made them significant. She was more than keen to point out that red curtains represent the protagonists inner rage, but when I said Romeo and Juliet was actually a comedy, noooo that was too far!

That's more of an academic disagreement, not really an indication that the very principle of critical analysis is not appropriate.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Honestly I really felt this way at school. I understood how connotations were drawn from Shakespeare, but a some of the observations that my English literature teacher made took some innocuous details and made them significant. She was more than keen to point out that red curtains represent the protagonists inner rage, but when I said Romeo and Juliet was actually a comedy, noooo that was too far!

That's more of an academic disagreement, not really an indication that the very principle of critical analysis is not appropriate.

Well it was in good humour. But I uphold that whilst not always appropriate, there's such a thing as over analysing and games suffer from it most due to their general lack of narrative substance. I can read a book and draw my own interpretation of words and actions, because the passive narrative makes that possible. Videogames require more active involvement which often conflicts with the narrativ, and we ended up with ludonarrative dissonance.

But in response to your initial question: " I also wonder whether those saying they "play games, don't analyse them" would give a similar response in English class, or film studies".

It depends on the film/book/play/poem/haiku. Somethings just aren't meant to be analysed whilst others are complex enough to open limitless doorways that lead to halls of fan theory and headcanon. The Star Wars example from above, for example.

 

[BarryMcCociner]

Bayonetta is neither feminist or sexist. Get this, the cold hard truth about Bayonetta is...

... a Platinum Games character.

Platinum fucking prides themselves on putting the spectacle in spectacle fighter. Christ almighty, look at a game like Metal Gear Rising. What does Platinum have you do in this game? Fight a United States senator who hulks the fuck out and starts throwing bits of giant walking insect nuclear-armed battle tank at you while a heavy metal ballad complete with lyrics just fucking wails in the background.

I don't think labels like 'sexist' or 'feminist' can really be applied to Bayonetta, I think doing that is kind of missing the point. Bayonetta is meant to look cool, do crazy shit in cutscenes, pull wicked combos and make some lame/decent puns here and there. Like all Platinum Spectacle Fighter characters, yes her aesthetic is highly sexualized. So? That's just part of her ostentatious, silly character. It's like complaining about Stan Smith's rabid conservatism. Yeah, you might disagree with this silly, suit wearing, CIA employed, bible thumping, flag waver- but without those aspects the character just doesn't work.

What I'm trying to get around to is, don't try to put a character through categories they were never designed to fit, all it'll do is leave you with distinctions that have no real relevance to the art. It's dangerously close to an exercise in futility.

 

[CaitSeith]

That's because I don't agree with the options the OP has. My answer is: there are more interesting things to analyze in her than the degree of sexism/feminism; and none of them are in the poll.

Righto. You know, there are polls on topics I find terrifically uninteresting-- favourite upholstery brands, for instance, or best methods of stain removal-- and I tend to drop into them to let everyone know I just how uninteresting I find them, and that those people should be making polls about other stuff.

Alternatively, perhaps different people find different topics interesting.

If people comment about when options are missing from my polls, why shouldn't I?

 

[Silvanus]

If people comment about when options are missing from my polls, why shouldn't I?

By all means, do! But I'd probably limit it to the topic that the original poster actually wanted to discuss, rather than just declaring that that doesn't interest you.

 

[Souplex]

That's because I don't agree with the options the OP has. My answer is: there are more interesting things to analyze in her than the degree of sexism/feminism; and none of them are in the poll.

Righto. You know, there are polls on topics I find terrifically uninteresting-- favourite upholstery brands, for instance, or best methods of stain removal-- and I tend to drop into them to let everyone know I just how uninteresting I find them, and that those people should be making polls about other stuff.

Alternatively, perhaps different people find different topics interesting.

If people comment about when options are missing from my polls, why shouldn't I?

If that topic interests you, make your own poll/thread, I would welcome the added discussion. Toss a link to it in your reply. That isn't the discussion we're having here though.

 

[Erttheking]

If by sexist you mean, is fun with an actual personality, then yes,

Really? That's your criticism of people who have problems with sexism? That they don't want fun characters with actual personalities? Bit of a strawman there mate.

OT: Ugh. I honestly would've been happy to have this conversation a long time ago but now the conversation couldn't be more loaded. I'll just say she's feminist and call it a day before I get angry replies.

 

[CaitSeith]

If people comment about when options are missing from my polls, why shouldn't I?

If that topic interests you, make your own poll/thread, I would welcome the added discussion. Toss a link to it in your reply. That isn't the discussion we're having here though.

By all means, do! But I'd probably limit it to the topic that the original poster actually wanted to discuss, rather than just declaring that that doesn't interest you.

I probably own you both an apology. I just realized that the fifth option in the poll fits pretty much my point of view. Why no one noticed it before? Anyways, sorry for making you lose time.

 

[9tailedflame]

I'm disappointed that so many people believe Bayonetta is a feminist character.
Really now? I had no idea feminism meant to shake your butt, spread your legs, moan in pleasure, undo your clothes, and have ludicrous body proportions.
Much feminism, so progressive!

I think it's more about the fact that bayonetta is strong, independent, heroic, and will kick the ass of anyone who tries to say otherwise. I really don't see how having a certain body type can make you sexist, to me, that's just a ludicrous notion. Does somebody with curves automatically become disqualified from being a feminist because of the way they look? Seems pretty absurd to me. As for the sexual part, there's never been anything wrong with sexuality, if you think there is, you're wrong, and you can go wiggle around in the stale pond water with all the other asexual organisms, simple as that. This modern "sexuality is evil" feminism might as well be faith-healing for as much sense as it makes or as much respect as I'm going to give it.

If modern feminism is just about being anti-sex, then it's shit. If you don't agree, the pond water's that way.

 

[prowll]

Part of this arguement is because there is a huge misunderstanding between sexy and sexist. If a girl wants to wear a little micro-mini skirt, that's sexy. If a guy MAKES her wear it, that's sexist.

So Bayonetta, as a character, is sexy. The programmers may be sexist.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Let's just put some definitions down so people can follow my conclusion.

Feminist character := A character that is strong, independent, and most likely female (can be male, but this is merely just a commentary on statistics).

Sexist character := A character which reinforces prejudices based on sex ("oh it's a female character, so she's whimsical, and likes shoes", I think you get the picture).

From these two definitions I'm concluding that Bayonetta is most definitely NOT sexist (I imaging, that if she stepped out of the screen, no one would get two syllables of prejudice out before she served them a good spanking followed by them profusely apologizing "yes miss, no miss, I'm sorry miss, it'll never happen again miss". But that's mainly because I hold low opinions of people who judge people based on what chromosomes they have). Is she feminist? Well I think so.

 

[rayman 101]

I'm the only person it seems who hated Bayonetta. To me it was more like a memory game with how you had to try and remember an insane amount of button presses for the combos. It was brain training or falling back on a small handful of moves.

Hopefully she is easier to play as in Smash Bros.

I got to a point in the game where basically, I just couldn't be arsed more or less for those reasons.

I had a lot of fun with Devil May Cry when it first dropped. It's possible I'm just a different person now.

I used to be very much into DMC3. I dislike the genre now. I find it shallow and monotonous. Platinum Games is the perfect example. I haven't played Bayonetta, but Metal Gear Rising was mediocre.

man you deserve a life time achievement award for shit taste dont you?

 

[Czann]

I don't care and I point and laugh at the ones who do.