Poll: Bayonetta

[ThatOtherGirl]

I think it's more about the fact that bayonetta is strong, independent, heroic, and will kick the ass of anyone who tries to say otherwise. I really don't see how having a certain body type can make you sexist, to me, that's just a ludicrous notion. Does somebody with curves automatically become disqualified from being a feminist because of the way they look? Seems pretty absurd to me. As for the sexual part, there's never been anything wrong with sexuality, if you think there is, you're wrong, and you can go wiggle around in the stale pond water with all the other asexual organisms, simple as that. This modern "sexuality is evil" feminism might as well be faith-healing for as much sense as it makes or as much respect as I'm going to give it.

If modern feminism is just about being anti-sex, then it's shit. If you don't agree, the pond water's that way.

I am most definitely not against sex, and I am not against sexualization. It's only sexism that I can't stand. Remember that sex and sexism are two different things.

However, I think someone else explained it better than me:

Part of this arguement is because there is a huge misunderstanding between sexy and sexist. If a girl wants to wear a little micro-mini skirt, that's sexy. If a guy MAKES her wear it, that's sexist.

So Bayonetta, as a character, is sexy. The programmers may be sexist.

....I think that hits the nail on the spot.

Pro tip, if you don't want people to assume you think overt depictions of female sexuality and feminism are incompatible your reasons for why a character isn't feminist shouldn't consist entirely of pointing out that she is overtly sexual.

 

[Story]

I thought a feminist is someone who actively fights or believes in the rights of women. I fail to see how Bayonetta has exhibited those things in her games, taking control of her sexuality is another thing altogether.
However, I agree with those that say she's a sexploitation because she is and I believe her creators openly acknowledged that she was designed to titallate (what with her long legs and other exaggerated proportions).
I choose the I don't have enough information option though as I haven't played any of the games, only watched boss fights on YouTube (which are awesome). So take my opinion with a grain of salt a guess.

 

[Ikasury]

its Bayonetta, she's the female Dante, she's all about that confidence and looking good while making enemies look like chumps!

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

She's a fetichist, if anything.

interesting backstory

Say what?

 

[CaitSeith]

She's a fetichist, if anything.

interesting backstory

Say what?

interesting backstory

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

She's a fetichist, if anything.

interesting backstory

Say what?

interesting backstory

I might as well reply with "say what" again, but indulge me - what part in this rambling, foaming mess are you referring to?

 

[9tailedflame]

I think it's more about the fact that bayonetta is strong, independent, heroic, and will kick the ass of anyone who tries to say otherwise. I really don't see how having a certain body type can make you sexist, to me, that's just a ludicrous notion. Does somebody with curves automatically become disqualified from being a feminist because of the way they look? Seems pretty absurd to me. As for the sexual part, there's never been anything wrong with sexuality, if you think there is, you're wrong, and you can go wiggle around in the stale pond water with all the other asexual organisms, simple as that. This modern "sexuality is evil" feminism might as well be faith-healing for as much sense as it makes or as much respect as I'm going to give it.

If modern feminism is just about being anti-sex, then it's shit. If you don't agree, the pond water's that way.

I am most definitely not against sex, and I am not against sexualization. It's only sexism that I can't stand. Remember that sex and sexism are two different things.

However, I think someone else explained it better than me:

Part of this arguement is because there is a huge misunderstanding between sexy and sexist. If a girl wants to wear a little micro-mini skirt, that's sexy. If a guy MAKES her wear it, that's sexist.

So Bayonetta, as a character, is sexy. The programmers may be sexist.

....I think that hits the nail on the spot.

But she's a character. A character can only ever be made to do things, since characters don't actually have agency, so by that definition, wouldn't ANY character in a game wearing a micro-mini skirt make it's programmers sexist, regardless of the context of the game or the character? That notion doesn't sit well with me either...

 

[Fox12]

I don't know if I'd call her sexist. It's a bit strong. You could probably make an argument for objectification.

She certainly isn't feminist though. It still impresses me how far people will go to justify their spank material. It's kind of like Kill la Kill and Sucker Punch. I wouldn't call them sexist at all, but they certainly aren't feminist just because they have a strong female character whose rubbing her cooch on a stripper poll for the enjoyment of the predominantly male audience.

So neither, I suppose.

 

[Erttheking]

If by sexist you mean, is fun with an actual personality, then yes,

Really? That's your criticism of people who have problems with sexism? That they don't want fun characters with actual personalities? Bit of a strawman there mate.

OT: Ugh. I honestly would've been happy to have this conversation a long time ago but now the conversation couldn't be more loaded. I'll just say she's feminist and call it a day before I get angry replies.

Maybe a couple of years ago I'd have taken accusation of sexism seriously, but now sexism is just a throwaway word. With Bayonetta she's a character, any attempt to label her either as a result of sexism or icon just shows how ridiculous this sexism topic got to.

You know, sexism is a term that rarely gets said around here anymore, mainly because you can't bring it up without someone getting on your ass about it. And last time I checked Bayonetta tended to be loved by feminists so I'm not sure where you got the whole "people who talk about sexism hate fun characters" shtick.

 

[Paragon Fury]

1: Its "feminist".

2: Modern day feminism? Absolutely not. Modern day feminism is EXTREMELY sex-negative and almost violently anti-men - something Bayonetta definitely isn't (and either count). Bayonetta represents the old-kind of feminism; the kind your mom and grandmother would've recognized. Bayonetta would almost be the anathema to modern day feminism.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

To quote a great philosopher of our time-

"What was that? Sorry, I was playing XCOM."

Ahem. But no, yeah, playing is generally less soul-crushing than agonizing over the more banal aspects.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

1: Its "feminist".

2: Modern day feminism? Absolutely not. Modern day feminism is EXTREMELY sex-negative and almost violently anti-men - something Bayonetta definitely isn't (and either count). Bayonetta represents the old-kind of feminism; the kind your mom and grandmother would've recognized. Bayonetta would almost be the anathema to modern day feminism.

The fact that there are many, many modern feminists who argue that bayonetta is a great character kind of invalidates your second point. That is why this came up in the first place - there is a lot of contention among modern feminists on Bayonetta.

 

[Paragon Fury]

1: Its "feminist".

2: Modern day feminism? Absolutely not. Modern day feminism is EXTREMELY sex-negative and almost violently anti-men - something Bayonetta definitely isn't (and either count). Bayonetta represents the old-kind of feminism; the kind your mom and grandmother would've recognized. Bayonetta would almost be the anathema to modern day feminism.

The fact that there are many, many modern feminists who argue that bayonetta is a great character kind of invalidates your second point. That is why this came up in the first place - there is a lot of contention among modern feminists on Bayonetta.

The problem is that very few, if any of those who would support Bayonetta and the older kind of feminism she represents have any kind of serious traction or influence, and they're not the ones influencing youth nearly as much as the new feminists.

 

[Erttheking]

But you confuse cause and effect, the reason why sexism is such a maligned term by now is because people keep using it unnecessarily and devalue it, rather then people never liking it in the first place. And it's less "hate fun characters" and more being sick of trying to shoehorn characters into feminist/non-feminist corners and also general typical mary-sue characters.

Hardly. People were getting pissy about it from day 1. I love video games but god damn it so many gamers can just not take their hobby being criticized. Ok. 1. characters are not filed into sexist and not sexist and 2. are you really talking about Mary Sues in the same thread you praised Bayoneta in? The person that punted god across the solar system? That's pretty darn sueish if you ask me.

The problem is that very few, if any of those who would support Bayonetta

I'm assuming you got something to back that up. Because I can't help but notice that so many people who criticize feminsm don't really do much research into feminists outside of the ones that are the loudest and as a result are in the spotlight of sensationalist media.

 

[Fox12]

1: Its "feminist".

2: Modern day feminism? Absolutely not. Modern day feminism is EXTREMELY sex-negative and almost violently anti-men - something Bayonetta definitely isn't (and either count). Bayonetta represents the old-kind of feminism; the kind your mom and grandmother would've recognized. Bayonetta would almost be the anathema to modern day feminism.

This is true. My mom and grandmother routinely dress in tight, restrictive leather and rub themselves against street lamps while moaning. They understand that feminism means mindlessly pandering to crowds of sex starved men. I found this embarrassing when I was four years old, so that means I'm sex-negative and hate women.

Spoiler

Bayonetta, apparently.

Again, I don't think bayonetta is necessarily sexist. But anyone who thinks she's a feminist symbol is kidding themselves. That jump requires more cognitive dissonance then Fox News.

 

[MrFalconfly]

This is true. My mom and grandmother routinely dress in tight, restrictive leather and rub themselves against street lamps while moaning. They understand that feminism means mindlessly pandering to crowds of sex starved men. I found this embarrassing when I was four years old, so that means I'm sex-negative and hate women.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bayonetta originally made by a female artist who "basically" wanted a female version of Dante from Devil May Cry?!?

 

[Fox12]

This is true. My mom and grandmother routinely dress in tight, restrictive leather and rub themselves against street lamps while moaning. They understand that feminism means mindlessly pandering to crowds of sex starved men. I found this embarrassing when I was four years old, so that means I'm sex-negative and hate women.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bayonetta originally made by a female artist who "basically" wanted a female version of Dante from Devil May Cry?!?

Uh, does it matter?

I said her design panders to a male audience, which it does. I said she's not a feminist character, which she's not. The gender of her designer is irrelevant. Especially since her character was probably well defined by the writers and directors long before an illustrator designed her appearance.

 

[MrFalconfly]

This is true. My mom and grandmother routinely dress in tight, restrictive leather and rub themselves against street lamps while moaning. They understand that feminism means mindlessly pandering to crowds of sex starved men. I found this embarrassing when I was four years old, so that means I'm sex-negative and hate women.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bayonetta originally made by a female artist who "basically" wanted a female version of Dante from Devil May Cry?!?

Uh, does it matter?

I said her design panders to a male audience, which it does. I said she's not a feminist character, which she's not. The gender of her designer is irrelevant. Especially since her character was probably well defined by the writers and directors long before an illustrator designed her appearance.

But does she really pander?

Or does she just stuff the idea that female characters can't behave like her for fear of being labelled as "pandering"?

But yeah, just because you're ironically fetishized, doesn't mean some people isn't wanking off to "you" I guess.

 

[Fox12]

But does she really pander?

Or does she just stuff the idea that female characters can't behave like her for fear of being labelled as "pandering"?

But yeah, just because you're ironically fetishized, doesn't mean some people isn't wanking off to "you" I guess.

At that point is there a difference? I didn't get the impression that Bayonetta was ironic or deconstructive at all. There's no real meta commentary about the audience, or about the state of gaming from what I've seen. Some games, like No More Heroes, walk a very fine line there, but I don't get that impression from Bayonetta at all.

Spoiler

Just because something is over the top doesn't mean it's lampooning its genre. Sometimes it just means that there's an excess of pandering.

 

[MrFalconfly]

But does she really pander?

Or does she just stuff the idea that female characters can't behave like her for fear of being labelled as "pandering"?

But yeah, just because you're ironically fetishized, doesn't mean some people isn't wanking off to "you" I guess.

At that point is there a difference? I didn't get the impression that Bayonetta was ironic or deconstructive at all. There's no real meta commentary about the audience, or about the state of gaming from what I've seen. Some games, like No More Heroes, walk a very fine line there, but I don't get that impression from Bayonetta at all.

Spoiler

Just because something is over the top doesn't mean it's lampooning its genre. Sometimes it just means that there's an excess of pandering.

I'm guessing that I get that "deconstructive" vibe, simply because Bayonetta isn't like the typical pandering character (like every female DoA character). She's always in control, unlike some truly pandering characters who seem to have a massive disconnect between who they are and what they dress like (two things that usually fit well together)

It may be a false-negative on my part, but that's just how I see it.