Poll: "Benevolent Sexism"...Wait, what?!

[visiblenoise]

I don't think it's a terrible thing, but I do chuckle inside whenever I see a guy offer a young woman a seat on the subway

 

[Ramzal]

Sorry ladies, but I give up...because apparently no matter what I try to do, I'm being sexist.

Sorry men. I give up, unless you can all act the same way, you're clearly too zany and confusing to even try. It's like you think you're individuals or something /OBVIOUS SARCASM.

According to a new study conducted by Northeastern University in Boston, there's a form of sexism that's even more "insidious" and hurtful than outright hostile sexism. The "wolf in sheep's clothing", as the researchers called it, is "Benevolent Sexism".

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415256/study-being-nice-women-sign-sexism-katherine-timpf

So the next time a guy holds a door open for you, offers you his umbrella during the rain or his coat during the cold, or even offers to help carry something heavy for you, you shouldn't feel thankful that a kind person is trying to help you...no, you should be out-right offended that he would have the audacity to offer!

I remember back in the day when such behavior was considered being a gentleman...now I honestly have absolutely no idea how I'm supposed to treat a lady without coming across as a sexist.

What do you think, my fellow Escapists? Is "Benevolent Sexism" actually a thing? Should I stop holding the door open for women or offering them my jacket?

Y'know what time it is- unpopular opinion time!
`Gentelmenly behaviour` can fuck off. Someone describing themselves as a gentleman is most usually a sign to avoid the hell out of them, I have found.

Bugger being a gentlemen, try being a decent person.
Personally, I open the door for everyone, should I reach said door first, and have never felt this a huge burden on my soul, but the way some people create about it- you'd think doors were all made of fucking stone and had to be opened by sweat and blood. Opening doors is just fucking polite, it doesn't make anyone into a bloody medieval knight.

How about treating a lady as an individual in the way you think she'd want to be treated?

I remember this guy who wanted to date me who fancied himself a gentleman. I've told this story before, but yeah, he used to go way overboard and try and dramatically open doors for me, and take bags off of me that were mine and I clearly wanted to be holding.
Funnily enough when I told him to knock it off, I got, `You women just can't decide what you want!`.

Oh, I don't know Escapist, maybe I'm just a huge *****, expecting to be treated like an individual and expecting others to show basic politeness to all regardless of gender.

Did you tell him "Knock it off" in those exact words? Because that's probably why he flipped if that's the case. Am I saying "OH IT'S YOUR FAULT!!"? No. But he was doing something he found to be socially acceptable and appropriate with no ill will towards you, and if you responded with a hostile "Knock it off!" then I can understand him being frustrated. It sucks when you're being nice and someone flips at you.

Oh the other hand if you told him that you've got it and he persisted and he became morose trying to take the bags from you, then yeah. I can get you being upset by that.

 

[Dizchu]

Did you tell him "Knock it off" in those exact words? Because that's probably why he flipped if that's the case. Am I saying "OH IT'S YOUR FAULT!!"? No. But he was doing something he found to be socially acceptable and appropriate with no ill will towards you, and if you responded with a hostile "Knock it off!" then I can understand him being frustrated. It sucks when you're being nice and someone flips at you.

He wasn't being nice though, he was being intrusive. "Nice" is holding doors open, picking things up that a person has dropped, letting them go in front of you at the checkout if they have fewer items. What Phasmal described is going into creepy "m'lady" territory.

Just look at Japan, how well that's going, 80% of men seeing themselves as Herbivore men, will only get worse, as long people tries to make everything a man does, as sexist or bad, until they just don't want to interact with women at all, and just live their life, as they please.

Uhh I don't think Japan's declining sex rate is due to men being afraid of being seen as "sexist". It's caused by a number of things, but the rise of feminism (as you seem to be suggesting)? No way.

I don't understand how the cringey behaviour of what the internet pretty much refers to as "fedora wearers" equates to "everything a man does is sexist".

 

[Phasmal]

Did you tell him "Knock it off" in those exact words? Because that's probably why he flipped if that's the case. Am I saying "OH IT'S YOUR FAULT!!"? No. But he was doing something he found to be socially acceptable and appropriate with no ill will towards you, and if you responded with a hostile "Knock it off!" then I can understand him being frustrated. It sucks when you're being nice and someone flips at you.

Oh the other hand if you told him that you've got it and he persisted and he became morose trying to take the bags from you, then yeah. I can get you being upset by that.

Nope, didn't use those exact words, back then I was trying to let him down gently.

But that's exactly my point. This guy had known me for many years, but as soon as he decided he wanted to date me, he started treating me like a delicate flower when anyone who's known me more than five minutes could tell I would absolutely hate that. Because that's what he thought women should like/be like, regardless of what the individual he was trying to impress (I guess) actually wanted.

So, yeah, that whole thing was dumb.

We should all be polite to strangers, and making a show of yourself trying to be a `gentleman` is often more to do with you than the other person. (General `you`).

 

[Thaluikhain]

Uhh I don't think Japan's declining sex rate is due to men being afraid of being seen as "sexist". It's caused by a number of things, but the rise of feminism (as you seem to be suggesting)? No way.

I don't understand how the cringey behaviour of what the internet pretty much refers to as "fedora wearers" equates to "everything a man does is sexist".

Oh come on, you know full well that every problem is because everything a man does is sexist and/or that *insert privileged group here* are too afraid to do anything because the PC police will suddenly act like real police and arrest them.

 

[Vlado]

I don't know what's worse - this being clickbait, or the author genuinely believing this crap.

 

[renegade7]

If you hold the door open for a woman because that's the polite thing to do, then that's just being decent. If you hold doors open for women because you think women are too frail and dainty to be opening their own doors, then that's benevolent sexism. It also goes in the reverse. If you do polite things for women but not for men because you think that men should be "strong enough to take care of themselves" (but women need your help), that's also benevolent sexism.

Essentially, it's when you do benevolent things based on a damaging caricature, ie, that women are weak, mentally inferior, emotionally unstable, etc.

Contrast with malevolent sexism, ie misogyny, where there is hostility or disregard towards women. If you give your female employee shit because you think women aren't capable workers, that's misogynistic. On the other hand, if you coddle her because you think women aren't capable workers, that's benevolent sexism.

And any feminist that does call that specific act of politeness "benevolent sexism" needs to chill the hell out. But I am unconvinced that many of them do that.

Yea. Really, I think the idea of a woman wigging out about the patriarchy because a man degraded her by doing her a favor is something that only happens on TV.

 

[Random Argument Man]

What do you think, my fellow Escapists? Is "Benevolent Sexism" actually a thing? Should I stop holding the door open for women or offering them my jacket?

Well, it's pretty much sums up to "be nice, but don't enforce niceness". If a buddy of mine gives me a beer and tells me three days later "Well, I gave you that beer that one time", that's not being nice. That's being selfish.

Just be nice to everyone. If they don't want help, let them be.

 

[Dizchu]

Oh come on, you know full well that every problem is because everything a man does is sexist and/or that *insert privileged group here* are too afraid to do anything because the PC police will suddenly act like real police and arrest them.

I am so sorry. Time to take that red pill and go my own way.

As we all know...

Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks

Seriously though (I've been a bit too serious in this thread), if you're having trouble pleasing a lady, find another lady. Or let a lady find you. Why would you ever want to be with someone who only likes you because you open doors for her and carry her bags, rather than someone who likes you for who you are?

I know it might be frustrating if nobody notices you but if you interact with women regularly and are a decent person, eventually something will happen. And if it doesn't? Well it's better to be alone than be in a shitty relationship anyway.

 

[maninahat]

I don't know what's worse - this being clickbait, or the author genuinely believing this crap.

The author specifically doesn't believe it. Their article is very sarcastic about the whole study and its findings.

As for the study itself, I don't know if it is anywhere near as ridiculous as the article makes it out to be, as I don't have 12 bucks to spend on a copy to find out.

I hold the door open for anyone. I would offer my coat to women too, but that only really happens because women on nights out have a habit of wearing pretty but impractical and non-insulating outfits. I'm sure I would offer it to guys too, however men tend to act macho and pretend they don't feel cold. As to "benevolent sexism", yes I think that much polite or chivalrous behaviour comes from a tradition that regards women as helpless shivering weaklings. It is however harmless enough to go largely ignored, and the most obnoxiously sexist polite practices have fallen out of favour (such as ordering the lady's food for them in a restaurant, as though they can't speak for themselves).

 

[chadachada123]

Like most others here, I just hold the door open for everyone. I *think* a woman scoffed at me once for it, at a crowded university no less, but I've never been told off for it. If I did, I would, like others here, just close the door in her face for assuming that gender had fuck-all to do with it.

Though, this reminds me of a different study that I've read on "benevolent sexism." Men that treat women as equals (and don't display benevolent sexism) tend to be viewed as sexist themselves by the average woman (emphasis on average). The study: https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstream/handle/10012/6958/Yeung_Amy.pdf?sequence=1

I've talked about this with friends, and we pretty much agree that it's because the average guy treats the average woman "better" than he treats other guys (again, emphasis on average). Guys are openly dicks to each other, and generally don't watch their language around each other, and this can come as a large surprise when a woman is truly treated as "one of the guys."

At least, that's what seems to be the case.

 

[Thaluikhain]

If you hold the door open for a woman because that's the polite thing to do, then that's just being decent. If you hold doors open for women because you think women are too frail and dainty to be opening their own doors, then that's benevolent sexism. It also goes in the reverse. If you do polite things for women but not for men because you think that men should be "strong enough to take care of themselves" (but women need your help), that's also benevolent sexism.

Essentially, it's when you do benevolent things based on a damaging caricature, ie, that women are weak, mentally inferior, emotionally unstable, etc.

Contrast with malevolent sexism, ie misogyny, where there is hostility or disregard towards women. If you give your female employee shit because you think women aren't capable workers, that's misogynistic. On the other hand, if you coddle her because you think women aren't capable workers, that's benevolent sexism.

And any feminist that does call that specific act of politeness "benevolent sexism" needs to chill the hell out. But I am unconvinced that many of them do that.

Yea. Really, I think the idea of a woman wigging out about the patriarchy because a man degraded her by doing her a favor is something that only happens on TV.

I generally agree with that, but I'm curious as to why you say that misogyny has to be malevolent sexism.

 

[Tomeran]

I think its important to have some perspective with these things.

For men(and I happen to be one), it comes across as a bit of a minefield. "Oh great, yet another apparantly normal polite thing I cant do because then im sexist". Politeness seems to impact with its intentions: We want to be nice, and perhaps a fair few people have been raised this way. But that doesnt mean that it isnt wrong, that the nature from where this politeness has developed isnt full of old-time thinking.

And therein comes the female perspective(which I can only theorize of): This is not equal treatment, polite or not. If the act is solely based on gender, then it is not equality. Naturally many women would want to be judged on other things then their sex. That's the whole fundamental basics of the gender equality issue.


So its exists and its a real issue. More of an issue then "hostile sexism"? I dont believe that for a second, but its certainly not something that should be seen as a made-up issue of overzealous feminists out on some crusade to "hate men" and everything they do. Or something.


However, like I said, perspective is important. Just as men should keep this in mind, women should probably keep in mind that most men that do this dont really have any ill intentions in mind. They're not out to demean you, hell most are probably not even aware they're doing it but it might even be some sort of subconcious behaviour that's been drilled into them from birth through parenting advice: "Be a gentleman". Perhaps that's why this hits such a nerve for a fair few men. Regardless, its something to keep in mind. And possibly very well worth pointing out to the men that do it.

 

[spartan231490]

If you are only polite to women in those ways, you are either implying that they are inferior and weak, or superior and above getting their hands dirty, and typically it's the later, considering the history of such practices. Either way, it's sexism. If you apply that politeness and assistance to women and men, that's different.

 

[Vlado]

The author specifically doesn't believe it. Their article is very sarcastic about the whole study and its findings.

As for the study itself, I don't know if it is anywhere near as ridiculous as the article makes it out to be, as I don't have 12 bucks to spend on a copy to find out.

Haha, you got me to look (I usually avoid clicking on such clickbait nonsense), and she does do a good job pointing out how dumb the study's claims are.

 

[renegade7]

I generally agree with that, but I'm curious as to why you say that misogyny has to be malevolent sexism.

Well, it's a word that does kind of get tossed around a lot, but ultimately it means a dislike of women:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.

I think that's what I'd call malevolent.

 

[Mister K]

Yeah, this 'holding doors open' thing pops up every now and again.

I'm curious, do women tend to hold doors open for other women? (Or for men, for that matter?) And if so, is that "sexist"?

Or, for that matter, does anyone actually complain about this IRL? It seems to be much more than someone knows someone whose cousin met someone that might have seen a strawfeminist once.

Well, except when I do it, because letting go of the door when someone is halfway through so they have to jump out of the way...that's always funny, but people complain.

I experienced it personally. I was getting out of the store, saw a woman coming near to enter, so I hold the door, as I do for EVERY single person. She looks at me as if I am some kind of a pest and, I kid you not, makes "shoo shoo" gesture with her hand. I think I was rather surprised. I let go of the door. She comes near it, takes th handle, looks at me with those damn eyes again, raises her head with some unbelievable pride and enters.

Did it stop me from being polite? No. And double no when it comes to my lady friend. But it made me think.

As for the OP, I can't really tell you what to do, but (sorry for the cliche) listen to your heart. If you feel like continuing being polite, then do so, if not, the tell everyone except people who you love and/or respect a loud "F*ck you" and treat them as nothing.

 

[RJ 17]

Did you tell him "Knock it off" in those exact words? Because that's probably why he flipped if that's the case. Am I saying "OH IT'S YOUR FAULT!!"? No. But he was doing something he found to be socially acceptable and appropriate with no ill will towards you, and if you responded with a hostile "Knock it off!" then I can understand him being frustrated. It sucks when you're being nice and someone flips at you.

He wasn't being nice though, he was being intrusive. "Nice" is holding doors open, picking things up that a person has dropped, letting them go in front of you at the checkout if they have fewer items. What Phasmal described is going into creepy "m'lady" territory.

Just look at Japan, how well that's going, 80% of men seeing themselves as Herbivore men, will only get worse, as long people tries to make everything a man does, as sexist or bad, until they just don't want to interact with women at all, and just live their life, as they please.

Uhh I don't think Japan's declining sex rate is due to men being afraid of being seen as "sexist". It's caused by a number of things, but the rise of feminism (as you seem to be suggesting)? No way.

I don't understand how the cringey behaviour of what the internet pretty much refers to as "fedora wearers" equates to "everything a man does is sexist".

Of course not, but it all plays into the bowl of misery, and there are plenty of different issues here, the herbivore men are likely to be through the fact that the traditions and the failing economy just aren't worth it, for the working man, if he has to support a family. For instance there's special tradition that the wife handles the economy and gets control of all the income, so the working husband, gets a set amount of "allowance" to spend on. Along with unobtainable expectations might also be part of men just giving up, and instead coining for their own happiness.

What most Japanese traditional men are, are workaholic corporate salary-men. These men often work long hours and give all of their income to their wives ? every last Yen. The wives in turn would give the husband allowances and keep the rest. Yes, this is a thing in Japan (Spacey, J 2012)

What these men truly are, are Japanese Beta Males being *****-slapped by their wives. Anyone with half a brain could see that this is not a life and is the primary motivating factor behind the Herbivore Culture as well as the reason it has gained so much ground in Japan. Hence, the Herbivore Men is a counterculture to Nikushoku Danshi or Carnivore Men which is the traditional male role, specifically on matters of love, employment and consumption.

Lesser known but just as true is that Herbivore Culture had existed long before the term was coined. It started back in the early 90?s as a reaction towards Japan economic downturn. As Japan?s economy further descends, it accelerated the growth of Herbivore Culture. The Herbivore men are typically 35 years of age or younger and this demographic corresponds to the period of Japan?s economic crisis; it?s a culture 20 years in the making, there just wasn't a name for it back then.

The Herbivore Men is a culture that rejects traditional Japanese way of life in favour of individual happiness instead.

I can see why, there are so many herbivore men in Japan.

/OT
Any way, I just don't bother, unless it's people I know, but that's just common decency, but I guess, soon just being nice and helpful will be sexist too, rofl.

 

[the December King]

Yeah, this 'holding doors open' thing pops up every now and again.

I'm curious, do women tend to hold doors open for other women? (Or for men, for that matter?) And if so, is that "sexist"?

I'm a woman and I hold doors for anybody and everybody who happens to be close enough behind me, lol.

I'm curious as to whether or not ANYBODY anymore actually discriminates whether or not they do this by gender? From what I can tell there is always an expectation regardless of gender that if you're reasonably close behind somebody they should hold the door open, at least in the "already through the threshold and holding it open from the inside" style. The "standing out of the way and holding it open from the outside" style is something much rarer, but I will admit I see men doing this more often than women (though I do it sometimes if the situation calls for it, like a big family is coming through who needs some room).

I think it's only sexist if you discriminate by gender, because you're making an assumption that either women are the only ones who deserve such a courtesy, or are the only ones that need it. Either one ends up slighting a gender.

This has been my practical experience as well, that no matter who is coming up behind me at a door, I tend to hold the door open for them. I get the door for dudes, ladies, etc. Actually, I rarely think about who it is, so much as proximity- how far away they are relative to my immediate position. That usually determines whether I stay to hold open the door.

EDIT: Of course we must bear in mind that I am from Canada, where overt politeness is pumped into several of our local water supplies.