I hold doors open for people - because if I didn't, it's be really awkward if we were going to the same place. It's a matter of perspective, really, though it's bound to be generalised by the vocal minority that some think are the majority.
Poll: "Benevolent Sexism"...Wait, what?!
- Thread starter RJ 17
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Likewise. If someone wants to call me sexist for holding the door open for a woman*, how do they know I don't also hold the door open for men?** Without me being spied on by some kind of secret sexism police, how would someone know?DoPo said:
*Which no-one ever has, thankfully.
**Which I do.
I hate to be the bearer of stereotypes, but to me these don't seem gentlemanly, but things that should be a rule of thumb for people in general (I am Canadian).
Though with that said, I seldom take an umbrella around with me (I love rain), and a decent jacket is expensive if you need to brave winter (Mine was around $100 USD when I bought it), so those things I would disagree with. Paying an extra dollar for the person in front of you at a grocery store checkout (If you are able), holding the door open for people, or just saying thank you if someone does one of the previous things for you, or assists you in anyway (Even if it was convenient for them).
But hey, as I said I'm a walking stereotype, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
Though with that said, I seldom take an umbrella around with me (I love rain), and a decent jacket is expensive if you need to brave winter (Mine was around $100 USD when I bought it), so those things I would disagree with. Paying an extra dollar for the person in front of you at a grocery store checkout (If you are able), holding the door open for people, or just saying thank you if someone does one of the previous things for you, or assists you in anyway (Even if it was convenient for them).
But hey, as I said I'm a walking stereotype, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
At this point anyone who calls me sexist/racist just gets a bunch of sexist/racist comments flown there way. If they want to claim i'm giving them a hard time then by jove i'll give them a bad time.
Seems to work out well. They get to sit in their corner hating normal social interactions and I get to filter out boring people very quickly.
Seems to work out well. They get to sit in their corner hating normal social interactions and I get to filter out boring people very quickly.
As a woman, I respect and admire men who are Gentlemen, who act like gentlemen, who treat a lady as a lady ought to be treated by a gentleman. I married a fabulous example of a gentleman. We have been married for over 6 years and he still jumps in front of me to open my car door for me. I am an intelligent and reasonably physically capable woman with a graduate level education. I am, naturally, quite capable of doing this myself, and he knows this.
His opening my door for me is a sign of his love and respect for me. Because I understand this, I make sure to thank him each and every time he does these things to let him know how much it is appreciated because I love and respect him too. I also want him, and others like him, to understand that all this folderol from the radical feminists and their contingent of "white knights" (oops, better change your nickname, boys!) is just that; it is a tale, told by a feminist, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
If you were to go out to your local grocery store, shopping mall, or wherever average folks are gathered and ask ten or twenty adult women of varying ages whether they appreciate gentlemanly behavior from a man, I would bet that the majority will say yes. Those who do not are not people I would probably consider as potential dating material if I were a man. Forget about what the vocal minority says. Behave in the way you feel best represents yourself, your values, the way you want to be seen by others and the way you want to be treated by others. If some random person doesn't appreciate your action or some crazy people on the web (yes, this includes published "scientists," I myself am a published scientist and we are just human like everyone) disagree with what you are doing, this is not a valid reason to change your behavior towards everyone of a certain gender etc. If I told you to jump off a cliff, would you do that, too?
Before everyone jumps down my throat, if a woman does not want doors held for her etc., this is her choice and she has the right to her feelings on the matter. However, I think it is sad to punish men for trying to do something kind for us out of respect for us as women. Thinking this code of behavior somehow belittles women seems to me a gross error of judgement. I suspect some women who feel this way (certainly the ones I have known) have been hurt in the past by men and they then project this onto all men and overreact to even the slightest percieved injustice.
Radical feminists are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, big time. What do they want; do they want to improve the lot of women, do they want women to be treated like men, or do they just want to be the same as men? The fact is, we are NOT men, and thank God! The fact is, men and women are different. This is the whole point of sexual dimorphism as an evolutionary strategy. Yes, men are naturally stronger than women in general. Women outperform men in other areas; door opening, however, is at times an act of strength. Some of these doors are freakin heavy or tend to stick. This is where it comes from, of course. But let's be real; nobody in the majority really still thinks women are nothing more than "wilting flowers" in this day and age. My idea of feminism is to embrace all that makes me a woman, to celebrate the differences between men and women, and to make the most of my unique strengths. "Different" does not mean "less."
Women, please let's learn to love ourselves *as women*. Once you can accept and love yourself fully for who and what you are, little things like whether a man opens a door for you may come to seem trivial (unless it's a specific known man being annoying in a specific way, as above). If the women in question knew how much it would hurt the man in question if she snubbed his generous gesture, and that it costs her nothing to just thank him and walk through the door, why not just do that? If you are dating someone or friends with someone and don't want him to behave this way, sure, explain to him what you want. Please don't make all of this more difficult than it needs to be if the man holding the door is a stranger. If the man holding the door was a smiling elderly man, would you still stop him and angrily refuse his gesture? Men deserve the same respect and consideration for their feelings that women do. This should go without saying.
His opening my door for me is a sign of his love and respect for me. Because I understand this, I make sure to thank him each and every time he does these things to let him know how much it is appreciated because I love and respect him too. I also want him, and others like him, to understand that all this folderol from the radical feminists and their contingent of "white knights" (oops, better change your nickname, boys!) is just that; it is a tale, told by a feminist, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
If you were to go out to your local grocery store, shopping mall, or wherever average folks are gathered and ask ten or twenty adult women of varying ages whether they appreciate gentlemanly behavior from a man, I would bet that the majority will say yes. Those who do not are not people I would probably consider as potential dating material if I were a man. Forget about what the vocal minority says. Behave in the way you feel best represents yourself, your values, the way you want to be seen by others and the way you want to be treated by others. If some random person doesn't appreciate your action or some crazy people on the web (yes, this includes published "scientists," I myself am a published scientist and we are just human like everyone) disagree with what you are doing, this is not a valid reason to change your behavior towards everyone of a certain gender etc. If I told you to jump off a cliff, would you do that, too?
Before everyone jumps down my throat, if a woman does not want doors held for her etc., this is her choice and she has the right to her feelings on the matter. However, I think it is sad to punish men for trying to do something kind for us out of respect for us as women. Thinking this code of behavior somehow belittles women seems to me a gross error of judgement. I suspect some women who feel this way (certainly the ones I have known) have been hurt in the past by men and they then project this onto all men and overreact to even the slightest percieved injustice.
Radical feminists are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, big time. What do they want; do they want to improve the lot of women, do they want women to be treated like men, or do they just want to be the same as men? The fact is, we are NOT men, and thank God! The fact is, men and women are different. This is the whole point of sexual dimorphism as an evolutionary strategy. Yes, men are naturally stronger than women in general. Women outperform men in other areas; door opening, however, is at times an act of strength. Some of these doors are freakin heavy or tend to stick. This is where it comes from, of course. But let's be real; nobody in the majority really still thinks women are nothing more than "wilting flowers" in this day and age. My idea of feminism is to embrace all that makes me a woman, to celebrate the differences between men and women, and to make the most of my unique strengths. "Different" does not mean "less."
Women, please let's learn to love ourselves *as women*. Once you can accept and love yourself fully for who and what you are, little things like whether a man opens a door for you may come to seem trivial (unless it's a specific known man being annoying in a specific way, as above). If the women in question knew how much it would hurt the man in question if she snubbed his generous gesture, and that it costs her nothing to just thank him and walk through the door, why not just do that? If you are dating someone or friends with someone and don't want him to behave this way, sure, explain to him what you want. Please don't make all of this more difficult than it needs to be if the man holding the door is a stranger. If the man holding the door was a smiling elderly man, would you still stop him and angrily refuse his gesture? Men deserve the same respect and consideration for their feelings that women do. This should go without saying.
...and don't try to pull that "internalized oppression" crap on me, I went to Antioch College...the REAL Antioch College. 
Well.. it is giving special treatment to an individual based solely on their gender. So yeah.. it is technically sexism. I mean if you'd do it for a woman but not a Man or vice versa it's sexist. Whether the recipient is harmed or helped by it.
Of course if you don't you are seen as an insensitive jerk and if you do, you are perpetuating stereotypical gender-roles and sexist culture. Men should behave this way and women should behave another way. Men 'Holding doors open for women' falls into the same class as 'women stay at home and cook'. It's a culturally imposed expectation/obligation based on one's gender.
Giving up your seat for a woman on the bus is doing about as much damage as say cat calling a woman from across the street. You're treating someone different based on gender. Way I see it. if you wouldn't do it for someone of your own gender, don't do it for someone of the opposite gender.
Of course if you don't you are seen as an insensitive jerk and if you do, you are perpetuating stereotypical gender-roles and sexist culture. Men should behave this way and women should behave another way. Men 'Holding doors open for women' falls into the same class as 'women stay at home and cook'. It's a culturally imposed expectation/obligation based on one's gender.
Giving up your seat for a woman on the bus is doing about as much damage as say cat calling a woman from across the street. You're treating someone different based on gender. Way I see it. if you wouldn't do it for someone of your own gender, don't do it for someone of the opposite gender.
Huh. Well these results aren't what I thought they would be. Do that many of you guys not believe in chivalry anymore?
Is it really punishing someone by not wanting them to do something for you?Lifeonerth said:
Don't get me wrong, if a random stranger holds a door for me I'll always say thank you, but I hold the door for others too, as it's not difficult for me.
But I don't think I'm punishing my boyfriend for holding my fair share of the shopping bags.
And as for feeling it's belittling, well, it's presentation isn't it.
If my boyfriend were to hold open a door for me, I'd say thank you, if he were to do it with a flourish and say `after you, m'lady`, I'd probably laugh and tell him to stop acting like a tit.
Oh well, to each their own I suppose.
If we're talking about just a random man and woman that don't know each other, then yeah, I agree with this (with the exception of holding a door open [as long as they're not far enough away that it's awkward], because that's just common decency, and anyone that thinks it's a big deal is insane). Why would I offer some rando my coat? That'd just be strange and kinda creepy.RJ 17 said:
This. EXACTLY this. There are far more, far worse problems facing women (and men) in other parts of the world. Focus on those first, and then, when they're dealt with and not before, come back to something like this.L. Declis said:
EDIT: And the award for best explanation here goes to Lifeonearth. You may pick up your internets when ready.
Exactly this.sumanoskae said:
Respecting your fellow human is pretty basic stuff. The fact that people get so caught up on how gender fits into it has always left me scratching my head.
When you're specifically talking about relationship dynamics it really just depends on the people. I don't think in this day and age women should expect to have the man cover the bill at a restaurant unless he already implied that he would. Similarly, unless agreed upon the man shouldn't expect the woman's family to foot the bill for the wedding as tradition dictates.
While I don't think it's a major issue I get why some women don't appreciate gentlemanly behavior. Being treated differently, whether its for your benefit or not, bothers some people, and I can respect that.
EDIT: Also, poll options are trash.
I'm sorry, but this particular fallacy has always been stupid to me. Humanity isn't a hive mind and we sure as heck aren't all working on the same sorts of problems all the time. Heck I could take this the other way and say "Well if we can't fix the little problems that men and women are facing how do we ever expect to change anything big?" See how that goes?THM said:
The important part is that we shouldn't be demonizing anyone. What we should be doing however is trying to not only understand and accept one another but realize that the world as a whole is made up of more than our anecdotal experiences there of and just because we personally haven't experienced something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or shouldn't be addressed ever by anyone. If you want to argue mountain out of a molehill that's fine, but if you've ever seen enough molehills together you start to realize that something doesn't need to be a bloody mountain to ruin your yard.
Which is hilarious if only due to the Usual Suspects as I'll call them use White Knights like personal armies.inmunitas said:
The fact that we're having this conversation at all is a good sign for equality. It means the boundaries are open and negotiable, it's incredibly sticky right now but I think in the end it'll solidify into something more equal. Holding the door for somebody because of their sex has to be the Seinfeld of equality debates. It's a vestigial compulsion of the latent sexism of 50 years ago, it's a politeness that we pick up on as children from parents and grandparents and haven't unlearned it.
It's usually a split second decision that relies on programming we've received more or less subliminally, I'm guessing most people rarely realize they do it at all. There's a lot of little sexist stuff like that from several decades ago that holds on specifically because it's hardly more than a mannerism and while it represents something larger and uglier, it's often not intentionally disempowering, it's just a learned behavior picked up from older generations without any context; disregarding the stereotypical "fedora wearing 'M'lady' types" of course.
It's usually a split second decision that relies on programming we've received more or less subliminally, I'm guessing most people rarely realize they do it at all. There's a lot of little sexist stuff like that from several decades ago that holds on specifically because it's hardly more than a mannerism and while it represents something larger and uglier, it's often not intentionally disempowering, it's just a learned behavior picked up from older generations without any context; disregarding the stereotypical "fedora wearing 'M'lady' types" of course.
I think it's funny that the Merriam-Webster definition of "sexist" is itself actually biased.Sarge034 said:
Maybe we should - it might mean we actually get something done about them.Lupine said:
I get what you're saying, but the problem is that too many people are focusing attention on little things like this, making them their whole worlds, and when confronted with bigger issues, they just respond with a shrug. It'd be nice if more people could focus on more than one thing at a time with stuff like this voluntarily and have a better sense of priorities and perspective, but they don't. So maybe in that case an effort should be made to make the high-priority issues bigger in the public imagination.
On this, we agree.
Maybe so, but if the mountain next door is spewing fire, maybe you should be more worried about that than a possible sprained ankle or hurt feelings.
The fact that 20% voted "Yes" to this makes my soul weep and almost makes me fear that humanity has no chance...RJ 17 said:
On the other hand, its still shows that only a minority of people on this rock are this thick... We've gone from people wanting to be fair and do the right thing as far as gender and race relations to EVERYTHING IS SEXIST AND RACIST where NO SEXISM OR RACISM EXISTS...
Maybe I need to sign up for that Mars mission....
I hold doors that I have walked through for the people behind me. Not because they are men or women. I do it because I don't like get hit with closing doors. I extrapolate from there that others also do not like getting hit with closing doors as well. That is not sexism that is empathy.