Poll: "Benevolent Sexism"...Wait, what?!

Akjosch

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Gorrath said:
Akjosch said:
The poll is missing the obvious "If you're discriminating based on someone's sex/gender alone, you're acting sexist." option. "Benevolent sexism" is such a silly phrase - it's just plain sexism.

Just treat everyone equally[footnote]And by "equally", I don't mean "nicely". That's up to you.[/footnote], how about it?
If i'm treating men and women differently because I am sexually attracted to women and not sexually attracted to men, am I still being sexist? The answer is a resounding "yes." I think people automatically equate sexism with unethical or immoral, even though there are situations in which discriminatory actions/policies make more sense. The idea that I as an individual should treat men and women the same in all situations is nonsensical; there are lots of things I would do for/with a woman that I wouldn't do for/with a man, though all of those things fall firmly into the realm of the romantic. That's why this subject is more nuanced than this thread seems to think.
The thing though is: It's fine if the "sexism" is based on biology. You being sexually attracted to just one sex (or gender) and choosing who to have sex with along those lines is such a case. Being mindful of pregnancy and its effects on females is another example, as are general issues related to reproduction. Aside of that, there's a bunch of disorders and illnesses which only or predominantly afflict one sex (breast cancer, osteoporosis, Alzheimer's as examples for women, colour blindness, autism and so on for men); here again it's biology which dictates a "sexist" treatment.

Other than that? We shouldn't treat someone differently because of their sex or gender. We can treat someone differently because we want to have sex with them, that makes sense, but that applies to only a very small part of the population in any case.
 

Gorrath

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Akjosch said:
Gorrath said:
Akjosch said:
The poll is missing the obvious "If you're discriminating based on someone's sex/gender alone, you're acting sexist." option. "Benevolent sexism" is such a silly phrase - it's just plain sexism.

Just treat everyone equally[footnote]And by "equally", I don't mean "nicely". That's up to you.[/footnote], how about it?
If i'm treating men and women differently because I am sexually attracted to women and not sexually attracted to men, am I still being sexist? The answer is a resounding "yes." I think people automatically equate sexism with unethical or immoral, even though there are situations in which discriminatory actions/policies make more sense. The idea that I as an individual should treat men and women the same in all situations is nonsensical; there are lots of things I would do for/with a woman that I wouldn't do for/with a man, though all of those things fall firmly into the realm of the romantic. That's why this subject is more nuanced than this thread seems to think.
The thing though is: It's fine if the "sexism" is based on biology. You being sexually attracted to just one sex (or gender) and choosing who to have sex with along those lines is such a case. Being mindful of pregnancy and its effects on females is another example, as are general issues related to reproduction. Aside of that, there's a bunch of disorders and illnesses which only or predominantly afflict one sex (breast cancer, osteoporosis, Alzheimer's as examples for women, colour blindness, autism and so on for men); here again it's biology which dictates a "sexist" treatment.

Other than that? We shouldn't treat someone differently because of their sex or gender. We can treat someone differently because we want to have sex with them, that makes sense, but that applies to only a very small part of the population in any case.
Right, that's exactly my point. Not all instances of sexism are inherently immoral or unethical. These instances, as you say, are generally based on biology. I bring this up because of the plethora of posts that indicate that benevolent sexism is always bad when a fair portion of it stems from romantic interest. The only thing I'm not sure I agree with is where you say this applies to a very small part of the population. Maybe in practice that's true? I'm not sure. I probably find about 33% of the planet's population to be sexually attractive. (I pulled that statistic out of my ass. I find a lot of women attractive!)
 

Akjosch

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Gorrath said:
The only thing I'm not sure I agree with is where you say this applies to a very small part of the population. Maybe in practice that's true? I'm not sure. I probably find about 33% of the planet's population to be sexually attractive. (I pulled that statistic out of my ass. I find a lot of women attractive!)
The context of my "very small part of the population" assertion is: How many of those 33% will you ever interact with? And how many of those will be "off limits" due to consanguinity or social norms you prefer to uphold, and thus should be treated with the same respect (or lack thereof) you afford everyone else?

What's left is a very small part of the population indeed.
 

Gorrath

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Akjosch said:
Gorrath said:
The only thing I'm not sure I agree with is where you say this applies to a very small part of the population. Maybe in practice that's true? I'm not sure. I probably find about 33% of the planet's population to be sexually attractive. (I pulled that statistic out of my ass. I find a lot of women attractive!)
The context of my "very small part of the population" assertion is: How many of those 33% will you ever interact with? And how many of those will be "off limits" due to consanguinity or social norms you prefer to uphold, and thus should be treated with the same respect (or lack thereof) you afford everyone else?

What's left is a very small part of the population indeed.
No doubt, that's why I qualified it with, "Maybe in practice..." I'm certain I'm not alone in acting that way though and I feel that this probably plays a major role in benevolent sexism. If we assert that sexism based on biological drive for romance/sex isn't inherently immoral or unethical and demonstrate that romantic interest plays a sizable role in the practice of benevolent sexism, we may assert that benevolent sexism isn't an immoral or unethical practice, depending on the rest of the context of any situation.

For example, buying my wife dinner while we were dating and taking her out for a show would be a sexist act on my part because I would not have done those things for a male friend of mine who was of the same economic standing she was. However, even though it is a sexist act based on benevolent sexism, it was not an immoral or unethical act. If I had found out that she hated the idea of me paying for dates and I continued to insist on doing it anyway, then that act of benevolent sexism would become more problematic. It's not so much that benevolent sexism is necessarily a problem, the problem is that individuals react to benevolent sexism in different ways. Some appreciate it and others do not.

This makes it very confusing when dealing with strangers, especially ones who you might have a romantic interest in. Will she be offended by an act of benevolent sexism? Will she be offended if you don't indulge her in some benevolent sexism? That's why I took some issue with your initial statement of, "Just treat everyone equally." It sounds like a fine idea, one I would even support, except treating everyone the same becomes an issue because not everyone wants to be treated the same and you aren't likely to treat someone you have a romantic interest in the same as someone you don't. I hope that better explains my position.
 

K12

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Yes benevolent sexism is a thing but it isn't the same thing as being polite and considerate as you're trying to characterise it.

It's along the lines "Don't use that kind of language there are ladies present" or "This isn't a suitable subject for a lady". It's a kind of sexism that protects women on the assumption that obviously they couldn't handle it because they're women. The kind of thinking that makes people think that women shouldn't work with serious crime or gory injuries because they'd swoon and faint.

I hold the door open for anybody and I'd help anyone if they look like they're struggling carrying something. Seriously guys who worry about this stuff are weird. If you hold a door open for a woman and they told you off for it then shut it in her face.

Surprisingly enough women are individuals who aren't all going to want to be treated the same way. The whole idea that you're looking for a "way to treat the ladies" is quite telling. A general way of behaving decently will work for most people and if someone goes off on one at you for it then they're probably a moron.
 

sumanoskae

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It baffles me how many people defend the idea of "The Gentleman" under the pretext that it is just a form of kindness; it seems that they simply do not comprehend the fundamental problem with that idea.

The primary point here is that by "Being a gentlemen" you are inherently making a distinction; if you're just being "Nice", then why do you call yourself "Chivalrous" instead just "Nice"?

If, in a vacuum, I say "All women deserve respect" as opposed to "All people deserve respect", the natural assumption is that I am making a distinction between men and women; I'm making a broad statement but purposefully leaving a large group of people out of it.

So the natural progression for "You should be nice to girls" is "Why just girls?"

Again, if kindness is all you care about, then why are you so attached to the idea of conditional kindness? Why do you care if the subject of your kindness is male or female? Remember, you're the one making that distinction.

Honestly, these are all very basic rules of social communication; I would assume that most people already understand them. So I am quite frankly flabbergasted that so many people still fail to take note of them.

Nobody is saying that you shouldn't be polite to women, we're saying you should be polite to everybody, women included.
 

Someone Depressing

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I hold doors open for people - because if I didn't, it's be really awkward if we were going to the same place. It's a matter of perspective, really, though it's bound to be generalised by the vocal minority that some think are the majority.
 

Ramzal

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Phasmal said:
Ramzal said:
If that's all you got out of my post, you missed my point by a long shot.

The point of my post is that if someone does something nice for you, you don't respond with hostility. In your case, this was on going after you had asked him several times to calm down with the helping you bit.
Please understand, that dude was not helping me. He was annoying me. He just thought he was helping, that doesn't make it true.

Ramzal said:
For my case, this was right off the bat of dating her for the world record shortest date life ever. I had the door open for her, she let it brew in her, got angry and decided to turn it into something negative. That is far from fair to twist someone's motives for doing something that required little to no energy from either party into something that is negative. If she said nothing at all about the door being held open for? That would have been fine. However she chose to get mad about the fact that I held my car door open for her and suggest sexism underneath it. People who look for conflict on that level are poison.
Yeah, it sucks that your date went sour. < That might sound sarcastic but I'm being sincere.
Ramzal said:
That is pretty shady in of itself and I was out for a date and a good time, not to debate whether or not me holding a door of my own car open for her was my plan to undermine women. She ruined a night, set it to a bitter and angry tone over absolutely nothing and I ended the date because I am not going to waste my time trying to convince someone that my actions are not enough namely since what you do is far more important than what I say.
Uhhhhh... from the sounds of it you two weren't well matched so it's probably for the best.

Ramzal said:
I was raised that if someone does something for you, you say "thank you." What you don't say is a slight equal to "fuck you for doing that for me."
I agree, manners are important. So is not being pushy. You're perfectly entitled to try and help me for instance, and I'm perfectly entitled to say `thanks but no thanks`.
Fair enough. You know, I think I finally agreed with a stance of yours fully then.

Huh...

 

Phlap

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DoPo said:
RJ 17 said:
Should I stop holding the door open for women
I hold the door open for everybody. Regardless of who they are. I think it's the polite thing to do.
Likewise. If someone wants to call me sexist for holding the door open for a woman*, how do they know I don't also hold the door open for men?** Without me being spied on by some kind of secret sexism police, how would someone know?

*Which no-one ever has, thankfully.

**Which I do.
 

Patathatapon

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I hate to be the bearer of stereotypes, but to me these don't seem gentlemanly, but things that should be a rule of thumb for people in general (I am Canadian).


Though with that said, I seldom take an umbrella around with me (I love rain), and a decent jacket is expensive if you need to brave winter (Mine was around $100 USD when I bought it), so those things I would disagree with. Paying an extra dollar for the person in front of you at a grocery store checkout (If you are able), holding the door open for people, or just saying thank you if someone does one of the previous things for you, or assists you in anyway (Even if it was convenient for them).


But hey, as I said I'm a walking stereotype, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
 

Dogstile

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At this point anyone who calls me sexist/racist just gets a bunch of sexist/racist comments flown there way. If they want to claim i'm giving them a hard time then by jove i'll give them a bad time.

Seems to work out well. They get to sit in their corner hating normal social interactions and I get to filter out boring people very quickly.
 

Lifeonerth

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As a woman, I respect and admire men who are Gentlemen, who act like gentlemen, who treat a lady as a lady ought to be treated by a gentleman. I married a fabulous example of a gentleman. We have been married for over 6 years and he still jumps in front of me to open my car door for me. I am an intelligent and reasonably physically capable woman with a graduate level education. I am, naturally, quite capable of doing this myself, and he knows this.

His opening my door for me is a sign of his love and respect for me. Because I understand this, I make sure to thank him each and every time he does these things to let him know how much it is appreciated because I love and respect him too. I also want him, and others like him, to understand that all this folderol from the radical feminists and their contingent of "white knights" (oops, better change your nickname, boys!) is just that; it is a tale, told by a feminist, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

If you were to go out to your local grocery store, shopping mall, or wherever average folks are gathered and ask ten or twenty adult women of varying ages whether they appreciate gentlemanly behavior from a man, I would bet that the majority will say yes. Those who do not are not people I would probably consider as potential dating material if I were a man. Forget about what the vocal minority says. Behave in the way you feel best represents yourself, your values, the way you want to be seen by others and the way you want to be treated by others. If some random person doesn't appreciate your action or some crazy people on the web (yes, this includes published "scientists," I myself am a published scientist and we are just human like everyone) disagree with what you are doing, this is not a valid reason to change your behavior towards everyone of a certain gender etc. If I told you to jump off a cliff, would you do that, too?

Before everyone jumps down my throat, if a woman does not want doors held for her etc., this is her choice and she has the right to her feelings on the matter. However, I think it is sad to punish men for trying to do something kind for us out of respect for us as women. Thinking this code of behavior somehow belittles women seems to me a gross error of judgement. I suspect some women who feel this way (certainly the ones I have known) have been hurt in the past by men and they then project this onto all men and overreact to even the slightest percieved injustice.

Radical feminists are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, big time. What do they want; do they want to improve the lot of women, do they want women to be treated like men, or do they just want to be the same as men? The fact is, we are NOT men, and thank God! The fact is, men and women are different. This is the whole point of sexual dimorphism as an evolutionary strategy. Yes, men are naturally stronger than women in general. Women outperform men in other areas; door opening, however, is at times an act of strength. Some of these doors are freakin heavy or tend to stick. This is where it comes from, of course. But let's be real; nobody in the majority really still thinks women are nothing more than "wilting flowers" in this day and age. My idea of feminism is to embrace all that makes me a woman, to celebrate the differences between men and women, and to make the most of my unique strengths. "Different" does not mean "less."

Women, please let's learn to love ourselves *as women*. Once you can accept and love yourself fully for who and what you are, little things like whether a man opens a door for you may come to seem trivial (unless it's a specific known man being annoying in a specific way, as above). If the women in question knew how much it would hurt the man in question if she snubbed his generous gesture, and that it costs her nothing to just thank him and walk through the door, why not just do that? If you are dating someone or friends with someone and don't want him to behave this way, sure, explain to him what you want. Please don't make all of this more difficult than it needs to be if the man holding the door is a stranger. If the man holding the door was a smiling elderly man, would you still stop him and angrily refuse his gesture? Men deserve the same respect and consideration for their feelings that women do. This should go without saying.
 

Lifeonerth

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...and don't try to pull that "internalized oppression" crap on me, I went to Antioch College...the REAL Antioch College. :)
 

MonsterCrit

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Well.. it is giving special treatment to an individual based solely on their gender. So yeah.. it is technically sexism. I mean if you'd do it for a woman but not a Man or vice versa it's sexist. Whether the recipient is harmed or helped by it.

Of course if you don't you are seen as an insensitive jerk and if you do, you are perpetuating stereotypical gender-roles and sexist culture. Men should behave this way and women should behave another way. Men 'Holding doors open for women' falls into the same class as 'women stay at home and cook'. It's a culturally imposed expectation/obligation based on one's gender.

Giving up your seat for a woman on the bus is doing about as much damage as say cat calling a woman from across the street. You're treating someone different based on gender. Way I see it. if you wouldn't do it for someone of your own gender, don't do it for someone of the opposite gender.
 

Bob_McMillan

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Huh. Well these results aren't what I thought they would be. Do that many of you guys not believe in chivalry anymore?
 

Phasmal

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Lifeonerth said:
Before everyone jumps down my throat, if a woman does not want doors held for her etc., this is her choice and she has the right to her feelings on the matter. However, I think it is sad to punish men for trying to do something kind for us out of respect for us as women.
Is it really punishing someone by not wanting them to do something for you?

Don't get me wrong, if a random stranger holds a door for me I'll always say thank you, but I hold the door for others too, as it's not difficult for me.
But I don't think I'm punishing my boyfriend for holding my fair share of the shopping bags.

And as for feeling it's belittling, well, it's presentation isn't it.
If my boyfriend were to hold open a door for me, I'd say thank you, if he were to do it with a flourish and say `after you, m'lady`, I'd probably laugh and tell him to stop acting like a tit.

Oh well, to each their own I suppose.
 

And Man

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RJ 17 said:
So the next time a guy holds a door open for you, offers you his umbrella during the rain or his coat during the cold, or even offers to help carry something heavy for you, you shouldn't feel thankful that a kind person is trying to help you...no, you should be out-right offended that he would have the audacity to offer!
If we're talking about just a random man and woman that don't know each other, then yeah, I agree with this (with the exception of holding a door open [as long as they're not far enough away that it's awkward], because that's just common decency, and anyone that thinks it's a big deal is insane). Why would I offer some rando my coat? That'd just be strange and kinda creepy.
 

THM

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L. Declis said:
Being a good person isn't something we should demonise. Maybe start with the bloody mountain of sexism like... Oh, I dunno, women not being allowed to go to school in some parts of the world before we start on this?
This. EXACTLY this. There are far more, far worse problems facing women (and men) in other parts of the world. Focus on those first, and then, when they're dealt with and not before, come back to something like this.

EDIT: And the award for best explanation here goes to Lifeonearth. You may pick up your internets when ready. :)
 

Fappy

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sumanoskae said:
It baffles me how many people defend the idea of "The Gentleman" under the pretext that it is just a form of kindness; it seems that they simply do not comprehend the fundamental problem with that idea.

The primary point here is that by "Being a gentlemen" you are inherently making a distinction; if you're just being "Nice", then why do you call yourself "Chivalrous" instead just "Nice"?

If, in a vacuum, I say "All women deserve respect" as opposed to "All people deserve respect", the natural assumption is that I am making a distinction between men and women; I'm making a broad statement but purposefully leaving a large group of people out of it.

So the natural progression for "You should be nice to girls" is "Why just girls?"

Again, if kindness is all you care about, then why are you so attached to the idea of conditional kindness? Why do you care if the subject of your kindness is male or female? Remember, you're the one making that distinction.

Honestly, these are all very basic rules of social communication; I would assume that most people already understand them. So I am quite frankly flabbergasted that so many people still fail to take note of them.

Nobody is saying that you shouldn't be polite to women, we're saying you should be polite to everybody, women included.
Exactly this.

Respecting your fellow human is pretty basic stuff. The fact that people get so caught up on how gender fits into it has always left me scratching my head.

When you're specifically talking about relationship dynamics it really just depends on the people. I don't think in this day and age women should expect to have the man cover the bill at a restaurant unless he already implied that he would. Similarly, unless agreed upon the man shouldn't expect the woman's family to foot the bill for the wedding as tradition dictates.

While I don't think it's a major issue I get why some women don't appreciate gentlemanly behavior. Being treated differently, whether its for your benefit or not, bothers some people, and I can respect that.

EDIT: Also, poll options are trash.