Poll: Bioware needs to grow up

[Robert Ewing]

The problem I'm having with Bioware is their cut and paste attiude to characters and plotlines. It's ok to have archtypes in their games but it's getting stupid.

Some Examples of characters/events COPIED between games:

The Special lead: Child of Bhaal/Jedi Knight/Spectres/Grey Wardens (although I have the least problems with these)
The stoic warrior: Canderous Ordo/Sten/Wrex
The naive yet plucky girl: Mission Vao/Tali/(ugh)Merilll

I could go on but I'm boring myself

yeah, this.

I think their whole philosophy is make a good game, copy paste it but in different time periods, wait 5 - 10 years, make another awesome game, repeat.

It's really silly, if you take mass effect, and Dragon age and showed it to a person who didn't know who made it, they'd instantly know it was the same freaking thing, only instead of space, it's medieval...

 

[BRex21]

Do you re-write the Geth Heretics for new allies, or do you destroy them in an acknowledgement of their right to self-determination (i.e. is submission perferrable to extinction, something your old nemesis argued with you?)? Yes, it is easy to denounce the decisions you're presented with as black and white, but I think in the larger picture, the subtext found in Bioware games points to a hidden sophistication not being recognized by this thread author.

My problem with this example is that while its a very complex question the game essentially forces it into black and white packaging. While i thought about this in the terms of: Would i rather live life brainwashed into "right thinking" or die with my own thoughts opinions and ideals. While its something of a moral dilemma that made me stop and consider the options and I decided I would let the Geth die with their minds intact thinking that this is the option I would choose for myself.
Of course playing as a "Paragon" the game told me "no that's wrong!" While I had 2 choices that each presented an interesting moral dilemma, Bioware has stamped a clear Right and Wrong on the choices stating that what I was doing was bad. Contrary to the OPs statements however I still agree with you that the writing presents a lot of depth but the technical aspects hold it back.
My best example of this is Fallout 3 (i'm not confusing obsidian with Bethesda here its just the best anecdote) is the quest "A Nice Day for a Right Wedding" Angela Stanley wants to marry Diego, and it is considered "good" to do it regardless of how you go about it, this includes drugging him and getting him to sign while under the influence. So you see drugging someone and forcing them into a marriage is clearly "good" because of the limitations of the program.
These things rarely can be as complex as decade old games because of the additional technical considerations, we need voice actors and lip syncing, people to make cut scenes people to do all sorts of things, particularly people to make this all fit in the necessary disk space. The level of complexity cannot mix with the industries graphical expectations and the current technical ability of our consoles

 

[Blind Sight]

Whilst not perfect Bioware are still better than everyone else.

I have to disagree with you.

Bethesda and obsidian are alot better to immerse the player using a good story.

Bioware is just faaar too cliche. Sure its great if you're 10-12 years old and just stopped watching Bambi on a daily basis.
But I think the bioware dialogue is horrid and unimmersive.

I'll have to disagree with you there. Bethesda can't write themselves out of a paper bag. Boring, overly linear plot lines, cliched dialogue, and cardboard, flat characters. The only real Bethesda story that's even passable for me is Morrowind's main story, and really that's only because it's decently structured. Obsidian's pretty good, however their ability to do everything else in a game is somewhat (i.e. hit and miss) lacking.

In terms of Bioware's storytelling and dialogue, it's pretty good: good, not great. I do like some of the philosophical elements present in their game's storylines, there's a lot of references to Hobbes and Plato in the structuring of some of their societies (see the Geth for Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan and the Dwarf caste structure for Plato's Republic) so I don't really think its a case of '10-12 year olds'. There are some complicated references to traditionalist philosophy that a lot of people fail to see.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Their storytelling? Fine, im satisfied with it. It's not perfect but they make it gripping enough.

Their gameplay? (you know the much more important bit?) sucks in everything except Mass Effect 2. But then I don't think RPG fans really care about gameplay.

you know you don't have to like it fine, but i DO care about the gameplay, and i buy RPG's because i LIKE the gameplay, alot actually. (not to say i don't like ME2, because i do, it is awesome)

is it really that hard to understand? i don't need super action packed twitch killz every 5 seconds to find the gameplay enticing. i like the turn based set in real time action, which is why i've played kotor 1 + 2 for a combined total of over 100 playthroughs, while DA:O and neverwinter nights i've done probably at least 10 playthroughs on those too.

I'll admit my post was pretty harsh, I should have been more personal about it rather than making a judgment of all RPG players. I'm sick and irritable today (got a bad cold, blocked up throat, can hardly breathe and hurts when I cough). So I apologize for taking it out that way

I don't necessarily need instant gratification either, but I just find the DnD and Turn Based style gameplay incredibly dull because they are nonsensicle in terms of a real fight and unimmersive. I do need my games to be immersive and make me feel like I'm really there in my characters shoes. And it annoys me somewhat their arent many great RPGs with gameplay that I can actually enjoy, because the actual concept of RPGs highly appeals to me.

 

[Spencer Petersen]

Bioware has this nasty habit of absolving all player responsibility by writing you above the law in all their recent games. Even good morality characters still kill hundreds of people per play-through, justified or not, but you never feel repercussions because of arbitrary and poorly written contrivances to keep them from having to design game-play that coincides with morality. In ME you are a spectre, making anything you do justified and untouchable by police. In DA you are the Grey Warden, putting you above the law. Even in sequels they contrive reasons to make you immune, like Cerberus expanding their invisible field of protection over you in ME2 or the city making you its champion in DA2.

I don't have high hopes for ME3 because they have written themselves so far into a corner that the gameplay and story have to be entirely segregated to have it make any sense. Why is it that one lone asshole that the Reapers have proven very capable of killing off easily such a big threat? Why is one guy with a plucky crew of multi-racial people (each with one single problem solvable by side quest) each even on their radar when the invasion is based on massive ship-to-ship combat (unless of course the genre shifts entirely to space combat or RTS)? The only way Shepard can even be relevant in ME3 is because of self-inflicted stupidity by the reapers (by performing all their invasions by sending waves of fragile ground troops into areas with chest high walls), retarded political contrivances (like making you go to each race and slap them into caring about intergalactic extinction) or the necessity for them to find some super weapon/IWIN button to solve the problem and render the plots of the last 2 games moot (probably the most likely).

 

[INF1NIT3 D00M]

I want MOAR Evil Robots, tyvm.

Mass Effect has some touching/thought provoking/involving characters and subplots, but Shepard herself is so infallible she's about as deep as Flash Gordon... and that's the way I like her.

Nothing against 'grown up' games, but sometimes I don't want to wallow in shades of grey and moral complexities for a full game. Shepard is a kick-ass galactic hero who saves the galaxy when she's not busy teaching aliens about 'this thing you humans call love'. It's not grown up or particularly deep, but it's a lot of fun.

Pretty much this.
Though to be fair, Shepard has some pretty difficult choices to make if you get yourself really immersed:
- Does he submit people to unending physical and mental torture in order to save the other billions who live in the galaxy?
- Is it better to allow free will, and allow that differing viewpoints will cause massive intergalactic conflict, or is it better to destroy those conflicting opinions forever in order to forge peace?
- Is he saving the galaxy because it is good, or is saving the galaxy good because it saves Humanity?
- Does having sex with Jack make him a bad person?
- Which store on the Citadel is his favorite?

 

[Krantos]

If you want a good, adult-themed story play The Witcher (1 and 2).

BioWare can take a lot of flak, but still comes down to the fact that the "Plucky heroes save the world" is a classic fantasy trope. While it can certainly be overdone, there's nothing saying it can't tell a good story.

I honestly thought Origins' storytelling was really good. Sure, the overall themes were a bit cliche, but the details of how they are presented was really good. The Big Bad Loghain was portrayed to be tangentially sympathetic. The factions rarely had a simple good/evil dichotomy.

In fact the morality in the game wasn't shallow at all. Take any of the Factions and there are very justifiable reasons to side with any of the participants. Take the Dwarves for example, do you weigh Bahlen's blood claim to the throne or Harrowmount's unconfirmed claim of being Eldrin's successor? Do you destroy the anvil, or do you allow it to survive so the dwarves can make golems and hopefully take back some of the deep roads?

KOTOR? Yeah, the sides were a bit cartoony, but it's Star Wars so it's a little expected.

Dragon Age 2 was just an excuse for them not to have a central plot. If they'd developed any of the plot lines so that it could carry the story from the beginning to the end, but it didn't even come close.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Here's the thing about KOTOR: It's a Star Wars game. Star Wars is all about black and white morality, and any attempts at interesting grey areas are either given the axe by LucasArts or declared non-canon.

I agree that the story was weak and the villains were horrible, but then I pretty much hate Star Wars in general for that very reason.

Kotor 2 had the grey area, it was practically the main theme. Developed by obsidian.

KotOR 2 is also a game that focuses upon slowly deconstructing the Star Wars mythos it is based upon, through the interactions between Kreia and the Exile as the Exile is thrust upon her (canon) journey of self-discovery. It is not standard Star Wars save for the use of Star Wars lore in creating it's setting and conflicts.

OT: Hm, you have to have the mentality of a twelve year old in order to enjoy cliche, yet immersive plots and settings such as Mass Effect and Dragon Age? My, my, if that isn't a little arrogant and insulting. I'm sure the view is nice from that marble podium you have set your ass upon to survey the simpletons below, no less.

While I agree that games such as Planescape: Torment and Baldurs Gate are great, immersive games, I'm not always going to want games that are thick with moral ambiguity and complex characterization. Sometimes, you know, I just want to be the big, goddamned hero of the universe, and feel good about myself while kicking some ass. You know.. plain old fun. If I want a more mature, adult, morally ambiguously and complex narrative to pass my time and have some introspective into my own philosophies and ethics, then I have the Witcher 2 sitting right on my desktop.

Also, before you raise Obsidian up on that pedestal as well, just remember that Neverwinter Nights 2 focuses heavily upon a big baddy to defeat, and eventually defeating it using a band of inter-racially woven misfits as well. It's honestly no different from either Mass Effect or Dragon Age in this regard, the King of Shadows being the Archdemon or the Reapers, and the Shadow Reavers/Geth being the horde of spawns used by the big baddies to challenge the hero of the story and his band of woven misfits.

 

[McNinja]

Except that Dragon Age: Origins had several (impactful) grey-area moral choices, and was a pretty good story.

It's funny, when I seeor ehar people talk about cliche's, I usually have no idea what they're talking about, because if when all you see when you play Mass Effect or Dragon Age: Origins is "evil things are trying to kill be because they're EVIL hurr durr" then probably shouldn't be playing videogames at all. There's a reason the Reapers are trying to kill the galaxy, and there's a reason the Darkspawn are trying to wreck all of Thedas' collective sh*t, and if you can't be bothered to figure out why then don't make threads about how storytelling is doing downhill. I find it astounding when people forget that games are made to have fun (we're on a site called the Escapist of all things), and instead try to psycho-analyze games or stories or characters that exist purely for the enjoyment of the player. You know what? Space Marine's story and characters were pretty flat, but it was a damn fun game. Games are about escapism and fun, not Graduate-level Psychology studies.

More on the subject of writing, every story boils down to something completely one-dimensional when you strip all the nuances away. Everything. Sometimes, you also get a completely different story when you do that. I remember one PSM (this was like six years ago) where they took the plots of several games and boiled them down into the most basic plot, and they all became cliche'd and actually the opposite of what the story is actually about. The point is when you boil a plot down to "They're evil because they are" you strip out everything else that makes it interesting. Now, some games are simply this and have terrible stories and characters, but games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins have a boatload of nuances to the stories that set them apart.

If you are going to say ANYTHING about how stories have become "cliche" or just badly done, talk about Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

 

[KingofMadCows]

The primary focus of Bioware games is to fulfill your fantasies. They're written to make you feel awesome, powerful and cool. That's what they're good at. You can't really compare them to Obsidian, who make games that are more about deconstructing your fantasies.

 

[Pandabearparade]

Whilst not perfect Bioware are still better than everyone else.

Simply untrue. Obsidian is head and shoulders above Bioware in terms of quality of narrative. They just can't put together a working, polished game to save their lives.

Watch the credits at the end of New Vegas to learn why: they have two play testers. Two.

Maybe Bethesda should have given them another month and a slightly larger budget? With the bugs hammered out, New Vegas kicks the shit out of Fallout 3.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

OT: Hm, you have to have the mentality of a twelve year old in order to enjoy cliche, yet immersive plots and settings such as Mass Effect and Dragon Age? My, my, if that isn't a little arrogant and insulting. I'm sure the view is nice from that marble podium you have set your ass upon to survey the simpletons below, no less.

Where did I say that? Is there a reason for this seething hostility? I would like to see more ambitious storytelling from one of my favorite developers, so I'm arrogant and insulting? And then you proceed to insult me, I guess. Well done!

Now, some games are simply this and have terrible stories and characters, but games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins have a boatload of nuances to the stories that set them apart.

A boatload? I think you're being overly generous. They have nuances, yes. They also have an incredibly simple and cliched central narrative structure that they like to hang those nuances off like garlands. I think they can do better. I'd even go so far as to say those little nuances floating off the starboard side indicate that they can definitely do better.

Some people appear to prefer a very gung-ho, pared down central narrative with big bads to slay and universes to save, and really...that is their prerogative. They have LOTS of games to choose from to suit their fancies. I would like a few more to suit mine...or at least more than 1-2 every decade, and this apparently makes me Hitler.

 

[O maestre]

first of all i didn't not read many of the preceding pages, in fact i only read the first page, but here is my opinion none the less

the story is bland and cookie cutter ill give you that, but bioware's delivery of the story is what sets it apart, for me most of mass effects appeal was the presentation.
the story may have been unimpressive but the atmosphere and the universe they created was more than enough to completely create a sense of immersion.

so yeah, i was very satisfied with the first mass effect, and to lesser degree, but still well satisfied with mass effect 2. they are fine games, and they have so far been the best at creating a successful narrative of all the modern games, a narrative that is unique to games, and not a copy paste of any other mediums means of story progression(got tired of writing the n word
)

EDIT: i did not mention dragon age 1 and 2, because i have not played any of them through, not for lack of trying i just found the gameplay unappealing.

and i didn't mention kotor or jade empire because any thing i say about those games would be tinted in all kinds of nostalgia and fanboyism

 

[BloatedGuppy]

so yeah, i was very satisfied with the first mass effect, and to lesser degree, but still well satisfied with mass effect 2. they are fine games...

They are SUPERLATIVE games, and amongst my very favorite of all time. I just think they can be better. I see room for easy improvement, if you will.

 

[O maestre]

so yeah, i was very satisfied with the first mass effect, and to lesser degree, but still well satisfied with mass effect 2. they are fine games...

They are SUPERLATIVE games, and amongst my very favorite of all time. I just think they can be better. I see room for easy improvement, if you will.

i agree... somehow you seem to have the impression that i have a contending opinion.

you'll have to elaborate, because i cannot see a difference in opinion

 

[BloatedGuppy]

i agree... somehow you seem to have the impression that i have a contending opinion.

you'll have to elaborate, because i cannot see a difference in opinion

Not at all. I was just improving your adjective. I was also taking an opportunity to re-express the fact I really love these games, since there seems to be population of contributors to this thread who are under the impression I hate Bioware and want them to die.

 

[Don Savik]

How is this poll biased? You people have blinders on to any criticism towards Bioware apparently. Now, I've played Kotor 1 and 2, and Mass Effect 2, and I do agree. Star Wars is star wars is star wars, the story telling there is fine. Black and white morality though is a good thing for most video games. You wouldn't want a game where you can choose to NOT fight the all consuming evil and get an ending where you sail away nonchalantly as everyone dies. That would be boring, plain and simple. Yes the characters are well crafted and believable, but the underlying story STILL IS: assemble rag tag companions to save the world. This is not debatable. Yes it is very well executed, but they are capable of a lot more depth.

 

[Slinker07]

Bioware is probably the one game developer that get bashed for their stories the most. I take that as a good sign.

Personally I like bioware games. Mass effect, dragon age, jade empire, Neverwinter nights (LOVED the MP in NWN.) Knights of old republic are all fine line of good games. And y'know? I can't really name any other developer with so many diffrent game series that are generally good. Sure they play a lot the same to eachother but so does many other developers diffrent game series. The story in Bioware pleases me, they have sort of became an auther you buy every books of. Diffrent settings, but you see how the story moves and in the style of the writting that this is the same guy. Biowares story might not please all of us but you can't blame them for not trying. (Unlike many, waaaaaaaaay too many, other developers.)

And about Obsidian, I agree that they make cool storys and settings. But their games are a MESS. Knights of the old republic 2, lovly game, when it worked, which it rarly did for me. Neverwinter nights 2, decent. The singelplayer was better than neverwinter nigths 1 made by bioware, but the mulitplayer just didn't work as smoothly as the first game, which was why I played it. Fallout 3: New vegas, messy disappointment for me. Invisble walls in large open areas, missions that bump into eachothers so you had to restart, crashing, overall unclear narrivtive and completly unbalanced. A shame, I kinda like what Obsidian attempts to do.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

OT: Hm, you have to have the mentality of a twelve year old in order to enjoy cliche, yet immersive plots and settings such as Mass Effect and Dragon Age? My, my, if that isn't a little arrogant and insulting. I'm sure the view is nice from that marble podium you have set your ass upon to survey the simpletons below, no less.

Where did I say that? Is there a reason for this seething hostility? I would like to see more ambitious storytelling from one of my favorite developers, so I'm arrogant and insulting? And then you proceed to insult me, I guess. Well done!

I have no problem with wanting to see Bioware go into more ambitious territory with their games and narrative, don't get me wrong. I would just disagree upon the assertion that their games to the modern day are not already on-par with games such as Baldurs Gate and Planescape: Torment, they simply make more use of cutscenes (both interactive and not) and formula cliche's in order to modernize and familiarize their respective genre's with a modern day audience - not entirely the stereotypical nerd-in-the-basement playing the DnD board game with like-minded friends since it's conception, anymore. I loved Planescape: Torment just as much as the next person, but masterful narrative only goes so far in the modern age without the visuals to compliment it's prowess.

My initial hostility towards your OP, however, was primarily the title of the thread, and the "Bioware's games as of late are more geared towards simpletons than it's past games" tone/vibe that many people interpreted it as while reading it. Even if you did not intentionally mean for such a tone to come forth.

 

[O maestre]

i agree... somehow you seem to have the impression that i have a contending opinion.

you'll have to elaborate, because i cannot see a difference in opinion

Not at all. I was just improving your adjective. I was also taking an opportunity to re-express the fact I really love these games, since there seems to be population of contributors to this thread who are under the impression I hate Bioware and want them to die.

welcome to the internet, beware there be fanboys at the bays of every developer

didn't you get the brochure