Poll: Bioware needs to grow up

[AM City Watch]

Bioware's problem is that they're aces at writing characters/dialog (most of the time) and pretty much pants at writing plot. All of their villains basically fall under "huge ominous evil thing that is evil," and when your Big Bad is on par with Ganondorf in terms of characterization, something is very wrong.

The Dragon Age games (both of them) were good because Bioware put a lot of emphasis on the party, and making each character interesting and entertaining. By the same token, ME2 suffered from removing inter-party dialog and dramatically reducing the amount of time spent with each character, essentially reducing them to quest-givers who happened to hang around on Shepard's great big ship-o-loading screens.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

yeah bioware probably CAN do a bit better, but i've enjoyed every single one of their games up until now, and i'm not going to act like the elitist fan who demands more about it.

I'm not sure in what way it's "elitist" to wish a favorite developer would step up their game. You probably want to use "entitled" or "demanding" there. But, yeah. I've been buying their RPG's for almost 20 years now. I am the very definition of a loyal customer. So it's bad exactly how for me to express something I'd like to see them improve on?

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

SNIP

You missed that some of their characters are LITERALLY cut and paste.

Annah, from Planescape Torment - a red-head thief with demonic heritage.

Neeshka, from NWN2 - a red-head thief with demonic heritage

Sharwyn, from NWN1 - a red-head bard (ok, not a thief, but close enough). No demonic heritage though.

Nalia, from BG2 - a red-head rogue (ok, rogue/mage)

Imoen - a red (and occasionally pink) haired rogue

Ok yes, SOME difference, but its all variations on a very similar theme...

2 of those games aren't BioWare games, I'll let you guess which.

And while yeah, I agree completely they recycle characters, most of those characters that you have just specified, are significantly different from each other personality wise. Red-headed thief girl is really all they have in common. The ones I complain about are the basic Carth or Bastila characters that have shown up in every one of their games since KOTOR.

HEATHEN!

/just kidding, but i do love to use carth's cheesy lines when at all possible.


and it's really hard to NOT recycle characters, there are only so many combinations that work out nicely in a story without you being annoyed as fuck (who the hell wants an emo weak ass gardening gas station clerk in their party? i sure as hell don't.)

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

yeah bioware probably CAN do a bit better, but i've enjoyed every single one of their games up until now, and i'm not going to act like the elitist fan who demands more about it.

I'm not sure in what way it's "elitist" to wish a favorite developer would step up their game. You probably want to use "entitled" or "demanding" there. But, yeah. I've been buying their RPG's for almost 20 years now. I am the very definition of a loyal customer. So it's bad exactly how for me to express something I'd like to see them improve on?

your right, demanding was probably a better word choice (sorry, been up alllll night workin on homework and studying for a quiz, so this is officially my 32nd hour i have been up straight.)

and that's the problem, i'm sure i'll end up that way soon enough, but it's really hard for the same people on the same team in the same genre to really break free of a certain "style" that they do, i mean if you think bioware is stagnating at all look at tons and tons of other game series out there, the characters are as cookie cutter at it gets and the only thing they change between games is their color of underwear, that's it.

your either gonna hear "it ain't broken, so why fix it?" or "gah! it's the same stagnating crap again wrapped up in a new box!"

although i will admit DA2 while i enjoyed it, it was open for so much more potential, it was really interesting how the antagonist(s) in the story fit together rather than one overwhelming force (reapers/sith lords/evil emperor), but alas...that went down the shitter it seems in the detail department.

 

[warrcry13]

Thinking the main problem with Bioware right now; is that they are trying to build their own worlds with Dragon Age and Mass Effect. While I believe Black Isle was writing a story in a world that was already pretty fleshed out. The problem with the kotor games was well It's a star wars story of course its going to be black and white morality, and a sith threatening the galaxy.

Maybe once Dragon Age, and Mass Effect get fleshed out a bit more we will see more grey areas.

 

[Arfreid]

The poll is a bit biased don't you think?

But I agree that the main stories of Bioware's games recently have been a bit dull, but they still present them brilliantly and the side stories are mainly interesting. Although I did like Jade Empires story.

Indeed, the main stories don't have a very diverse or original plot, but it's the many sub quest that brings flavor to the whole game (at least for me) maybe because it's a way to present you the world in which your character is in, Bioware's writting is good, or at very least interesting enough to keep me going.

PS: Kudos for your avatar, Luca Blight was one hell of a bad guy.

 

[josephmatthew10]

Whilst not perfect Bioware are still better than everyone else.

Simply untrue. Obsidian is head and shoulders above Bioware in terms of quality of narrative. They just can't put together a working, polished game to save their lives.

Hmm, personally I disagree as far as "head and shoulders" goes, but I'm sure Obsidian's take on KOTOR II would've turned out much better if Lucasarts hadn't rushed it out six months early and forced them to butcher the ending and truncate many of the sideplots.

 

[Scorekeeper]

BioWare's stories aren't as good as Obsidian's but are simply polished and presented with skill. Quality presentation often trumps originality, like it or not. Besides, the characters are interesting enough. Aside from ME2, I don't recall playing a BioWare game with an unsatisfying story. DAII's approach was rather refreshing but recycled dungeons and a few other things marred the game. Alas, while Obsidian can write and present a story, they can't design a working game to save their lives. Acceptable story + great presentation + polished gameplay > great story + good presentation + acceptable gameplay.

 

[Arina Love]

This poll is biased, well says it all. don't like bioware style of story telling? don't play bioware games simple as that as long as Bioware games sells you rant is only opinion one of the many. i liked every bioware game and never had any problem with story, DA2 was a little let down but still fun game and I'm glad i bought it.

 

[josephmatthew10]

SNIP

I'd disagree about KOTOR, very much so. It was really better than KOTOR II, because Lucasarts didn't meddle with the release date, and Bioware had time to make their game consistent in its quality (which was good; it was somewhat lighter than KOTOR II, but the dialogue was excellent, and it painted a grand portrait of good vs evil on the canvas of the Star Wars universe.)

 

[Slayer_2]

Nostalgia is a *****. Why just a few days ago, I was reminiscing about my first 3D game I owned, Quake 2. So I went and played it. Turns out it's still fun, but can't compete with modern games. If you want that game, go play it. And don't pretend that you'd like an updated version with new graphics and modern features, we all know how much spite that'd get from the community. Gamer's are a fickle bunch.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Their storytelling? Fine, im satisfied with it. It's not perfect but they make it gripping enough.

Their gameplay? (you know the much more important bit?) sucks in everything except Mass Effect 2. But then I don't think RPG fans really care about gameplay.

 

[Blackout62]

Poll is dickish, actual post brings up some interesting points.

Frankly I think Bioware writes great characters and that Mass Effect 1 was the perfection of their patented story formula, Obsidian has way better writers but the buginess of their games has been overblown, and Bethesda just can't write a good main quest.

 

[josephmatthew10]

Whilst not perfect Bioware are still better than everyone else.

Simply untrue. Obsidian is head and shoulders above Bioware in terms of quality of narrative. They just can't put together a working, polished game to save their lives.

LOL Very funny, I guess that's why I can't help but trip over all these threads and comments about how amazing Obsidian Entertainment is at story telling...Or even mentioning them at all.

Alpha protocol? Terrible story, terribly executed.

Kotor 2? not bad, but Has nothing on Kotor 1.

New Vegas had an "Okay" story, certainly nothing to write home about.

Dungeon Siege 3? Christ I don't even need to explain anything there. Fucking terrible.

Haven't played neverwinter nights, but I sincerely doubt that they pulled anything fantastic out of nowhere.

Biowares story telling, however, is regarded as being one of the best in the industry, along with the likes of Rockstar. There's a reason why even heavily critical Zero Punctuation notes it's just a given a bioware game will have great writing.

You wanna believe that obsidian has bested bioware, a highly critically acclaimed-for-story-telling developer, in story telling? Fine, be my guest. I wanna believe there's a million pounds in my bank, But I guess just believing it against all evidence doesn't magically make either of those things true.

z
z
This actually sums up my feelings a bit better.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Poll is dickish, actual post brings up some interesting points.

In my defense, these forums eat 90% of the polls anyway. I seriously didn't expect it to survive.

 

[sheah1]

Hang on, so, if Bioware sucks so bad, then who's their superior narrative wise? Obsidian? I'll accept..... who else? And I mean in modern gaming. Yes planetscape may run rings around it (according to you, I've never played it, but I don't wanna spoil it just in case), but it also runs rings around everyone else.

Edit: In fact, forget Obsidian. It's been said that Bioware is great for characters, not overall conception..... Same for Obsidian. Exactly the same.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Their storytelling? Fine, im satisfied with it. It's not perfect but they make it gripping enough.

Their gameplay? (you know the much more important bit?) sucks in everything except Mass Effect 2. But then I don't think RPG fans really care about gameplay.

you know you don't have to like it fine, but i DO care about the gameplay, and i buy RPG's because i LIKE the gameplay, alot actually. (not to say i don't like ME2, because i do, it is awesome)

is it really that hard to understand? i don't need super action packed twitch killz every 5 seconds to find the gameplay enticing. i like the turn based set in real time action, which is why i've played kotor 1 + 2 for a combined total of over 100 playthroughs, while DA:O and neverwinter nights i've done probably at least 10 playthroughs on those too.

 

[josephmatthew10]

I feel that I have to throw my hat in with what bz316 said above. There is a lot of subtlety between the lines if you look for it.

Bioware is great for making sure every character gets a development arc, making sure the overall story doesn't get in the way of the smaller stories, and piecing it all together so that you can still answer the question "yeah, but what's the game about?" in less than 3 pages of text.

My favorite example of this is still Jade Empire. The "save the world" plot was masterfully written and realized from beginning to end.
(oh, crap. I don't know how to do spoiler tags. Apologies to anyone who hasn't played the game if this doesn't work)

The classic "your destiny is to save the world" plot is redeemed by proving to be an artificial construction of Master Li himself. He intentionally filled your head with these ideals and trained you to have a monster of a hero complex. In the end you save the kingdom in spite of this, not because you're the destined hero he said you were.

At the same time, every character has an individual development arc that is often directly influenced by you as the leader.

You can force Dawn Star, for example, to grow a spine and stop whining about her insecurities, but that doesn't mean you have to go "evil" for the entire story.

Speaking of evil, that was also the best handling of evil in games I've seen. I'm tired of the evil option answering the "why" question with "because I'm a dick and I hate kittens"
Jade Empire introduced the "closed fist" option which allowed you to have a valid philosophy behind why you weren't a doormat for every NPC who lost their shoe in the forest or has a mean landlord.

Last soapbox rant about Bioware games and good/evil RPGs in general. Please stop balancing the game assuming players will be 100% good or evil.

(ME2)When I can't get the "good" ending because I don't see the point in blowing up an alien weapons lab as opposed to turning it over to the Council or Alliance instead of Cerberus that shouldn't make me evil! that's just practical thinking. "It's tainted" isn't an excuse to burn a book, and isn't an excuse to potentially deny your species valuable insight into your attackers.

When you take away options for your player because they don't agree with your view of good or evil, the player is forced to make that choice once at character creation, and will be pure good or pure evil for the rest of the game so they can get the best bonuses. They no longer have a choice of whether they agree that the genophage is for the greater good, now they have to choose between gameplay and role playing.

Sorry for the wall of text, I just needed to get that out of my system.

TL;DR version:
1.Jade Empire did a great job of keeping the overall story nuanced while not neglecting individual character arcs.

2.If you're going to make being evil an option, at least give me a story-relevant reason to do so.

3.Don't punish your players for actually thinking about the decisions you place in front of them rather than looking for the one with the most "good points" so they won't get a bad ending.

[applause, flowers]

 

[Mookowicz]

The Star Wars and ME franchises are both space opera: larger than life characters having adventures in space.

The narrative problem (if you want to call it a problem) is really that space opera tends to deliver adventure, not drama. That's a genre artefact and not a problem of execution -- and arguably there's a huge market for SF adventure, but a very small one for SF drama, so I can't really blame a publishing house for targeting its SF titles that way.

To be honest, I'm not sure what the DA franchise is. It's not quite high adventure nor drama either. DA:O was well-executed adventure aiming to be drama. I never got DA:2 for reasons readily apparent in the comments here.

Bioware's doing (mostly) fine in execution. But its picking its genres based on commercial success, and that won't appeal to all tastes.

 

[Omnific One]

Bioware is the king of cliches and nobody realizes it. However, they do make it work as well as possible for a cliche.