Poll: Can piracy be justified?

[Mr F.]

Can piracy be justified?

The internet makes it convenient to steal content, these excuses exist because people are narcissistic, greedy, lazy and just sick enough to see themselves as being persecuted when they are denied something they feel they deserve.

- The media is not being released in your country

Screw importing, how could X company be so insensitive as to not think of MY NEEDS when they planned their release areas. Better steal it.

- The media is being censored or otherwise is inferior in your country

No blood and swear words? Better steal it.

- The media is released at unfairly high prices (I'm looking at you Australia)

Oh, a luxury good is priced too high...better steal it.

- The media is being released with (intrusive) DRM or other kind of regional restrictions that makes the media unplayable for you

The media is being released with DRM because everybody is already using the above lame egotistical reasons to sooth their consciences. Better steal it again, you deserve that thing.

Huh, even though a few people on YOUR side of the argument are already tearing into you for being less than helpful, I think I will join in from the other side of the argument.

Lets see, point one:
- You have moral reasons to disagree with the nature of intellectual property and copyright, either because you are a Socialist/Communist who believes that all property is theft or you believe that copyright is holding everyone back by putting artificial barriers in the way of science and education. I am talking about Non-Fiction here cause piracy is a very, VERY broad issue.
- The media not being released is a good reason to pirate. In places like where I grew up it was significantly safer to pirate films and songs that were banned because importing them could get you kicked out of the country yet they had no laws against piracy and already having the items on your computer. Soo... There are PLENTY of reasons why piracy is justified over importing, depending on where you are.
- Media being censored? See above. Whilst American Pie was released where I grew up, the film was LESS THAN 30 MINUTES LONG. They censored out all swearing and references to sex or jokes that were considered to be in bad taste. Another good example is the Passion of Christ, the film was censored to remove all references to Christianity. It was shorter than the adverts prior to the film.
- Ah, DRM. My favourite argument. You know, there are companies that do without and they still make sales. Why? Consumer loyalty and releasing a decent product. Hearts of Iron, Victoria, Crusader kings, All of those amazing grand strategy games by Paradox do not contain ANY DRM of ANY kind. They still make sales. Because people want to buy them, because people want a product that automatically patches itself, you get the idea. Games like Assasains Creed get pirated because of bullshit always online DRM. If the pirates get a better service than the paying customer you would be a fucking idiot NOT to pirate.

Yet you are arguing that I am "Sick in the head" for being able to come up with a rational defense of Piracy.

So I will break this down for you:
If you already own the game/media and it got lost/damaged, piracy is justified. You are not "Stealing" in this case, just reacquiring.
If the game/media is so censored and broken in your country as to be unplayable, pirating is jutified. Why would you buy a broken product?

Those are the only two examples where it is sorta undeniable that piracy is justified.

However, with regards to books, music, genetic code and just about any other "Copyright Infringement" (Which is the REAL name for piracy.) well, go look at my other posts.

Guys, I have an awesome idea. Can we stop calling piracy piracy? I know, I know, it sounds so fancy and swashbuckling and people like the Pirate Party have a badass name. But it makes Copyright Infringement sound so much worse than it is.

 

[kickassfrog]

Pirates are "Good" for the economy, a study done in Switzerland showed that pirates habitually spend more on media than non-pirates.

Find me a link to the study, otherwise this is inadmissible as evidence.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/12/05/swiss-government-study-finds-internet-downloads-increase-sales/

There ya go, thats the study as close as I can find it from the swiss govt

That will do nicely, I withdraw my objection.

 

[kickassfrog]

IF there is no legal way to obtain the game legally then it's totally fine to pirate the game. I think it's a good way for the creators of the game to see what people like and say a lot of people were pirating the game it'd be a good way to tell how many people would be willing to pay for a game if it was to get a sequel.

The problem I have with piracy is that everyone who take part in it have the most stupid reasoning behind pirating. They act like it's not their problem or they were never going to buy the game in the first place. It seems to me that it's just wrong, your stealing and yes it's not the form of stealing where you've actually done anything wrong no it's far closer to plagiarism. Like the love child of Petty Theft and Plagiarism. You haven't stolen anything you've just taken a copy of what the creator is stealing for free and for some people with every intention of giving it away for free.

It'd be like if you made something say a book and then I write down everything in your book and started writing it down in my own book and gave out free copies to all my friends. I haven't stolen your book but I've still taken a giant chunk out of your potential profits. That's how I see piracy and I don't think I'm about to change my mind.

This. I'm on precisely this stance since I watched that extra credits.

 

[funnydude6556]

I agree. I hate piracy but Copyright Infringement isn't really on the level of attacking a boat, stealing from them and raping and murdering everyone on board. The problem I have with piracy is that while there are some justifiable reasons to pirate a game it's impossible to tell who has a good reason and who doesn't. How can a games company tell the difference between somebody like you Mr.F who has a justified reason and somebody who's simply stealing because he can't be bothered to pay. Yeah it's annoying but I think you have to get that a games company will always look out for their profits which mean sadly that if somebody is pirating their games for free their going to put a stop to that even if it means putting people like you and me out.

It's a big problem although I do think companies make it out to be worst then it is, companies like Ubisoft and EA Games make WAY too much money for it to be a problem. I mean the numbers Ubisoft is bringing up? No way in hell is it causing that much of a problem, now that is sick in the head. When you say stuff like "Piracy is so bad I'm losing fifty bajillion dollers!" I mean Ubisoft sound like their just saying stuff that they think sounds bad.

Also DO4600 AND Mr.F
- Morality? Please Mr.F don't bring that shit into this. I mean seriously do we really need to go into some Sci-fi inspired rant about the condition of the human soul? It's still stealing, somebody made something, they put a lot of hard work into it and you took it for free. Granted there are good reasons to commit copyright infringement but the whole morality argument sounds like an excuse
- The Media? Ok now this is one of the reasons I was referring to. I don't think anybody excepts you to legally buy something if that means putting your life in danger, "If I don't pirate it I'm going to die or be kicked out of the country" is maybe the best excuse for pirating, unless somebody finds out not pirating Assassin's Creed 3 will cause the end of the world. No Sarcasm, seriously what country were you from that had that strong a stance? North Korea?!
- Censoring? This I get, in England the channel E4 is the worst for this. Seriously I remembering watching a half hour episode of Scrubs that lasted around 10-20 minutes long since all the best bits were cut out of the show (those 10-20 minutes are including ads). If Censoring is going to ruin your experience that is the fault of your country as it's more convenient for you to pirate.
- DRM? This is a double edged sword. The problem is that DRM was brought around long after Copyright infringement started now please get that I am not saying DRM is a good solution, it's the kind of solution you use to catch a road runner if you catch my drift. Hopefully your right though, recently the example you used? Assassin's Creed 3 will not have always online DRM in an attempt to halt Copyright Infringement so hopefully your right and the game won't be the most pirated in the series.

To end this up your not sick in the head in fact from the talks I've found Internet Pirates or hackers to sometimes be easier to talk to then normal gamers. Maybe it's since I don't automatically treat you guys like your evil monsters sent to destroy the gaming industry.
-

 

[Something Amyss]

Some studies say pirates buy more music than non-pirates; some studies say piracy is destroying the industry. There is no real evidence to support either one.

In other words, there's no real evidence of any impact on the market.

The problem here is that there really isn't much in the way of unbiased research. You tend to have studies predominately released by torrent sites or bodies like the RIAA or MPAA (change them up by region). the former tends to say "pirate buy more, so it's okay" and the latter tends to say "pirates are dirty stinking thieves who are killing the industry."

The truth is certainly somewhere in the middle, but there's a lack of actual study by third parties. I mean, imagine if we only had cancer risk studies on tobacco from Philip Morris and the American Lung association. Change it up as necessary.

In the end, there really isn't any evidence of general benefit or harm. Kind of like I said.

So...Would you like to endorse piracy as a whole? It seems you already do, so I'm curious as to why you are so evasive when I bring this up.

Interesting. You got me there. My explanation was too generic. Let me correct that: I stand by the age of information (Internet) where everything should be free to share, but it should not be used with the intent to inflict harm on people.

Who's going to harm you with your SSID and similar information? Maybe I just want to run some money through your account. It's win-win.

I know, but I just wanted to point out you can't automatically assume I was pirating stuff because I said it was fair to pirate stuff.

Which is nice, but since I haven't claimed otherwise, why bring it up? It just sounds needlessly defensive.

I still maintain you're not interested in fairness. It's worse because it's self-serving, but even if you swore on a stock of whatever holy text you believe in that you had never pirated a single item, it still wouldn't be "fair" to take someone else's work without paying. Especially if you argue thigns like "too expensive."

They usually are. That is why I explained the situation by providing arguments. It's up to you to accept or reject these arguments. I still think I make a pretty strong case.

I disagree and have argued such. You walked away from those.

There is a small but steady fanbase in the Netherlands. So?

Of course, that's not even close to what I just said. This appears to be untrue. As a result, "so?"

Yeah, so it looks like that's no excuse. It even looks like dedicates shops are prevalent enough that there is a viable rental service.

Honestly, I'd prefer people download without trying to morally justify their actions. I'm not saying I'm pro-piracy, but these silly justifications are hard to stomach.

I'm an author trying to get published. I actually hope I never actually go after people for piracy, but you never know what a monetary deal will do to you. Assuming I ever get published. The thing is, I'm not really anti-piracy nor pro-piracy. But if you toss a rationalisation down in front of me, I will argue it. Especially if it's in bad faith.

I dislike the devaluing of media, especially if the argument is "the price isn't fair." With most items, we either buy them or we don't. I know since this is a gaming site I'm addressing the wrong crowd most likely, but if something's not worth the price, people generally don't buy. They don't just buy it anyway and whine it incessantly or try and take it by another means. In the internet age we have become so self-entitled we literally devalue the work of others for self-serving convenience. The internet seems to be trending society towards utter sociopathy, from the devaluing of intellectual rights to the dehumanisation of others.

And while I think the act of pirating someone's work is not a good thing, people justifying themselves as somehow being the victim really sucks.

 

[Do4600]

If the game/media is so censored and broken in your country as to be unplayable, pirating is jutified. Why would you buy a broken product?

It's never justified. You never need media. You don't die without it. All of these excuses stem from an incredible sense of conceited torpor, nothing else. What makes you justified in taking that media even if it is censored to the point of being broken? What gives you the right? I'll tell you what gives you that right, your own sense of self importance and the obscene immediacy which you ascribe to your own cravings; which are so grossly inflated that it makes you think that you should be justified in breaking the laws of your own country and indeed international laws to acquire intellectual property because you just cannot live another moment without an uncensored version of that new Lupe Fiasco single. Sometimes you don't get what you want. Most people just grow up, discipline themselves, and realize this, others create ways to get everything they want, all the time. In society they are called criminals, which is exactly what you are if you don't own the licence for your media. Who knows, maybe protesting that you can't import the media would actually change the country for the better. If every person who pirated that media in your country instead stood up against the governing body for the right to own that media your country might not be in the situation it's in.

 

[Mr F.]

If the game/media is so censored and broken in your country as to be unplayable, pirating is jutified. Why would you buy a broken product?

It's never justified. You never need media. You don't die without it. All of these excuses stem from an incredible sense of conceited torpor, nothing else. What makes you justified in taking that media even if it is censored to the point of being broken? What gives you the right? I'll tell you what gives you that right, your own sense of self importance and the obscene immediacy which you ascribe to your own cravings; which are so grossly inflated that it makes you think that you should be justified in breaking the laws of your own country and indeed international laws to acquire intellectual property because you just cannot live another moment without an uncensored version of that new Lupe Fiasco single. Sometimes you don't get what you want. Most people just grow up, discipline themselves, and realize this, others create ways to get everything they want, all the time. In society they are called criminals, which is exactly what you are if you don't own the licence for your media. Who knows, maybe protesting that you can't import the media would actually change the country for the better. If every person who pirated that media in your country instead stood up against the governing body for the right to own that media your country might not be in the situation it's in.

Firstly, your point about protest.

I do believe that protesting within a Muslim Dictatorship about the inadvisability of banning all imports of uncensored foreign media would be a very, very stupid call. At the minimum, you would be promptly deported. Worst case scenario you would end up spending a long time in an Arab prison, not something which the average person would enjoy over much.

As for the rest of your points?

You are approaching this from the other side from which I am approaching this. I believe that all forms of media should be free, from music to artwork, and that as long as everyone involved can still afford to eat and live a moderately comfortable life, no crime has been committed. Truly, Piracy is a victimless crime, it can even be argued to be a crime which is beneficial for the state. From the functionalist perspective upon society, all crime has purpose and is required for society to continue functioning successfully. From the Marxist perspective, all forms of crime are acts of rebellion against the state. Either way you can see that two key sociological theories support acts of crime.

I am not a pirate. Partially this is because I am currently studying sociology at the University of *REDACTED* and they have a closed internet system to prevent people from pirating. Whilst I am willing to make a protest against the state, I am unwilling to do so in a way which would jeopardize my education. You, ser, are being deliberately antagonistic and insulting my good person, my morality and my sense of self, simply because we disagree on a few points about the minutia of Copyright law.

So, Ser, Kindly take your opinions and put them where the sun does not shine. I am entitled to my opinion that property is theft, that Piracy is a victimless crime that can be shown to benefit society and the economy as a whole. If I live somewhere that has banned a particular piece of art, a particular book, and I acquire this through other means I am doing so to continue my own enlightenment. Yes, I have pirated copies of such things as The Communist Manifesto, Das Capital, Animal Farm, 1984, you name it. Other political and important works which allowed me to further my education.

Piracy is not just about games, songs and movies. It is about freedom, freedom of expression and freedom to view artwork of any kind. Sure, you can safely argue that a lot of things do not fall into the remit of Education, such as Death Race, or quite a lot of music. But if I want to listen to a piece of classical music that is banned because it was written by a Jew, if I want to read a history book that has been banned because it mentions the holocaust, if I want to read a book which has a depiction of homosexuality, if I want to listen to music that is critical of our current economic model, I should have the freedom to do so.

So, Ser, I bid you good day. Take your opinions on copyright law, your reverance of the Free Market, your belief that I am any your lessor because I have acquired certain medias without paying for them, either because they are banned, impossible to import or, in some cases, I believe that I should not pay for them (Propping up an international publisher in order to buy a copy of The Communist Manifesto would make Marx turn in his grave), and shove them where the sun does not shine.

I will not stoop as low as you and attempt to insult you. I disagree with your opinions but I do not think you are my lessor because you hold them.

 

[Tarrker]

...I really HATE the word pirate because copyright infringement is NOT piracy.

Actually it is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement]

"Piracy traditionally refers to acts intentionally committed for financial gain, though more recently, copyright holders have described online copyright infringement, particularly in relation to peer-to-peer file sharing networks, as "piracy."

First off, sorry for a reply to something many months old but, after reading your response, I felt I needed to put things into a bit of perspective. It's just really silly that the lawyers for wealthy clients simply get away with demonizing things like this. It was never called piracy before the money makers decided they wanted to win some court cases. It's not at all a secret why they started calling it piracy instead of copyright infringement but it's no less silly and just plain wrong.

Personally, I think it's unfair to the people who are genuine victims of piracy. Think about it for a minute. What if I was the victim of assault and, during my court case, my lawyer started calling the crime murder instead of assault to try and win the case. I realize this would never happen but think about what it would mean if people just started using that terminology. People in the general public would hear "murder" and be confused. They wouldn't know if you're talking about a punch in the face or a knife in the heart. Both are vastly different and one is, easily, much worse than the other.

 

[Tarrker]

If the game/media is so censored and broken in your country as to be unplayable, pirating is jutified. Why would you buy a broken product?

It's never justified. You never need media. You don't die without it. All of these excuses stem from an incredible sense of conceited torpor, nothing else. What makes you justified in taking that media even if it is censored to the point of being broken? What gives you the right? I'll tell you what gives you that right, your own sense of self importance and the obscene immediacy which you ascribe to your own cravings; which are so grossly inflated that it makes you think that you should be justified in breaking the laws of your own country and indeed international laws to acquire intellectual property because you just cannot live another moment without an uncensored version of that new Lupe Fiasco single. Sometimes you don't get what you want. Most people just grow up, discipline themselves, and realize this, others create ways to get everything they want, all the time. In society they are called criminals, which is exactly what you are if you don't own the licence for your media. Who knows, maybe protesting that you can't import the media would actually change the country for the better. If every person who pirated that media in your country instead stood up against the governing body for the right to own that media your country might not be in the situation it's in.

I can only imagine what kind of person you are that you would honestly hold this point of view. First off, I can only imagine that you do NOT live in the United States. Secondly, I'm guessing that you've never had a point in your life where you had to choose between eating your next meal and being entertained for the next week or so. Also, this argument has a LOT of facets. Music is easy to get legally for free. Movies are the worst. Going to the theater on my unemployed budget is just out of the question and most of the films that my wife and I actually WANT to see never get down to an affordable price.

Games, however, stand out from the crowd. You cannot get a good idea for what is in a game just by watching a trailer. Not to mention that game trailers these days are 90% cinema. Those Assassin's Creed 3 trailers are freaking epic and speak to me on a personal level but don't tell me if it's worth my while to spend $60 on the game when it is released. On top of that you have game companies like EA who release games you can only install 3 times before it, literally, locks you out from the game you bought and paid for. It's not like they tell you that on the box either. So you're just out $50-$60 if you should, god forbid, have three HD failures or something.

Putting to point that these are things are not essential for survival is a popular tactic among your the ranks of your side but it belays something more important. The computer I'm writing this on is far from essential as well as all the books in my library. But I think a lot of people would agree that, enjoying life is more important than actually living it. So what then is there for a person to do when the thing they love most in life is simply made unattainable to them? You're suggesting they should just do without. I can certainly practice my iaido techniques without a hanzo master sword from the coasts of California too but how sad a swordsman would I be trying to practice essence of bushido with only a stick.

In the end I doubt my terrible grammar and massive text will turn you to our side. However your post makes you seem really arrogant and uncaring. I found myself strangely offended by your post and I have a feeling that others in my particular "position" in life will feel the same way. I doubt they will be as cordial, though. I realize you're just saying your point of view like everyone else but there it is.

 

[Do4600]

If the game/media is so censored and broken in your country as to be unplayable, pirating is jutified. Why would you buy a broken product?

It's never justified. You never need media. You don't die without it. All of these excuses stem from an incredible sense of conceited torpor, nothing else. What makes you justified in taking that media even if it is censored to the point of being broken? What gives you the right? I'll tell you what gives you that right, your own sense of self importance and the obscene immediacy which you ascribe to your own cravings; which are so grossly inflated that it makes you think that you should be justified in breaking the laws of your own country and indeed international laws to acquire intellectual property because you just cannot live another moment without an uncensored version of that new Lupe Fiasco single. Sometimes you don't get what you want. Most people just grow up, discipline themselves, and realize this, others create ways to get everything they want, all the time. In society they are called criminals, which is exactly what you are if you don't own the licence for your media. Who knows, maybe protesting that you can't import the media would actually change the country for the better. If every person who pirated that media in your country instead stood up against the governing body for the right to own that media your country might not be in the situation it's in.

First off, I can only imagine that you do NOT live in the United States.

Sure do

Secondly, I'm guessing that you've never had a point in your life where you had to choose between eating your next meal and being entertained for the next week or so.

Often, I'm a student, I choose eating.

Movies are the worst. Going to the theater on my unemployed budget is just out of the question and most of the films that my wife and I actually WANT to see never get down to an affordable price.

"I want, I want, I want, me, me ,me, me, mine, mine, mine, mine, now, now, now, now!"
-Captain James T. Hook, Pirate.

Games, however, stand out from the crowd. You cannot get a good idea for what is in a game just by watching a trailer.

This is true, they do a really poor job of representing the finished product. However, you have the internet, I searched youtube for assassin's creed 3 gameplay videos, I found 31,100 over 20 minutes long, that's at least 1.1 years of video material to help you decide if it's worth buying, you could watch the whole game, if that isn't enough material to help you decide, nothing will be.

Putting to point that these are things are not essential for survival is a popular tactic among your the ranks of your side but it belays something more important. The computer I'm writing this on is far from essential as well as all the books in my library. But I think a lot of people would agree that, enjoying life is more important than actually living it.

Try this, attempt to tally up exactly how much money you would have spent on the material you were pirating, this is exactly how much money you will be debt if they ever totally shut down piracy websites. You are living outside your means right now through piracy, imagine how much it will suck when they actually stop piracy entirely, when you actually have to make a choice between having that entertainment and having crippling debt.

So what then is there for a person to do when the thing they love most in life is simply made unattainable to them? You're suggesting they should just do without. I can certainly practice my iaido techniques without a hanzo master sword from the coasts of California too but how sad a swordsman would I be trying to practice essence of bushido with only a stick.

No, I'm suggesting that if you love something and really have a passion for it, you will sacrifice trifles to attain it and that means discipline, how do you practice Bushido without discipline might I ask?

 

[Tarrker]

No, I'm suggesting that if you love something and really have a passion for it, you will sacrifice trifles to attain it and that means discipline, how do you practice Bushido without discipline might I ask?

So I guess I spewed my brains out while I was dead tired and made myself look stupid. I wanted to let you know how arrogant your post made you seem but ended up just spewing words everywhere. I'm glad you came back in a non-offensive way though.

To answer your question, though, I study bushido. It's a theology so that doesn't take much effort, really. I have, however, practiced iaido and various forms of ken-jutsu for about 20 years now. I've built up a lot of discipline over the years. I turn down luxuries all the time for things like bills and food. It just sucks, y'know.

I guess what I wanted to say in my incoherence last time was that I just see most of what we call piracy these days as a completely victimless crime. If you watch the Jimquisition on the same subject I basically see eye to eye with him on everything. I personally haven't committed any "piracy" in years but I don't agree at all with how criminal it has become.

I remember buying the Diablo 2 set when it first came out using money I'd saved up with my first job. My two friends and I play that game all night with just that one copy. What happened to that?