Poll: Can pornography exist in a sexism free society?

[Sylveria]

Uh...yes? Seriously, who argues against porn unless the people involved have been forced into it?

Puritans, especially of the religious sort, would be my guess. There's always some crazy person who does. Or the hypocrit that rails against it only to be found out that they have a massive porn collection themselves.

As for my thoughts... of course it can exist. As long as it's all done with the consent of the involved parties then I see no problems with it. An end to acting as if sex is somehow taboo while utterly maiming people isn't would be a good thing.

Puritans and oppression feminists. The women who consider all heterosexual sex as "rape" because the patriarchal system has brainwashed women in to thinking they want sex with men.

I'd argue that a "sexism free" society would have way more porn as people would be free to explore their sexuality, whatever it may be, without societal judgement. There is a certain irony that ultra-right and the ultra-left both condemn pornography. It's almost like they're the same people, just wearing different signs.

 

[Sylveria]

The best porn Ive seen is where they is chemistry, where the actors seem genuinely attracted to each other, where they kiss and talk and smile and enjoy the experience and the camera doesnt matter. This sort of porn seems sadly rare, though it does seem to be getting more common with the rise of the amateur stuff. I think this sort of stuff would be more common in a sexism free society, because sexist free or not, we still have needs, equality isnt the opression of sex, I wish there were more sex positive feminists.

You may want to consider looking for more porn classified as "Porn for women." One of the hall-marks of "for women" pornography (not this is not "feminist" pornography) is the focus on intimacy in the sexual encounter. Sadly, it is something you'd likely have to pay for to find a site that caters to that and is of decent quality production, as it tends not to show up on the free posting places.

 

[Lieju]

Uh...yes? Seriously, who argues against porn unless the people involved have been forced into it?

Well, you can argue porn being bad or sexist, the same way you can argue Michael Bay's movies are bad, even if no one was forced into making or watching them.

Or course in neither case you'd be arguing all porn or all movies are bad. Of course criticism of a piece of pornographic entertainment is then often framed as 'against all porn'.
Or, in the case of 50 Shades, criticism against its portrayal of sex and BDSM is often dismissed as anti-sex or anti-BDSM.

I have nothing against porn, but I would argue the majority of it is bad. Not because it's porn, but because it's just not done well and targets a certain kind of audience. From what I've heard of straight women, heterosexual porn is in most cases filmed in a way that focuses on the woman, and doesn't look sexually appealing to heterosexual women.
And don't even get me started on lesbian porn... bleh.

Arguing that porn must be sexist is a pretty sex-negative view, really.

... I don't really know how to answer the question as given.

To be honest, I used to be a lot more relaxed about porn than I am now.

Can't look at it myself, or at least, haven't found any that doesn't usually make me feel slightly sick, rather than aroused, but that's a minor issue.

What really made me aware of why perhaps it's more of an issue than I originally thought is... Because I was abused (arguably even raped) by a guy... Who for some reason I let come back anyway.
It was actually possible to have a reasonable conversation with him though, and ironically I wouldn't say he's a horrible person... But what I did come to understand was largely from a moment he decided to try and show me porn...
I'm sure he was hoping it would excite me somehow, but instead it just caused me to have a sudden realisation.
His lack of regard for my feelings, and weird ideas of what was possible to do sexually (many of which made me quite uncomfortable) were quite clearly related to the porn he had been watching.
It became obvious he had unrealistic expectations about sex, because he was assuming that what he saw in porn could be applied directly to reality. (When in fact porn is in many ways just as fake as any other kind of 'entertainment' media)...

That realisation really forced me to stop and think about this...

However, all it's really done is left me rather confused. I don't like banning things as a principle, yet I can see, and have first-hand experience of the subtle negative effects it can have...

I just... Don't know what to think, at this point.

I'm sorry to hear that, and it highlights what's wrong with the society's attitude towards sex.
If these subjects can't be openly discussed, if people have no clear idea how sex even works, or take their partner's feelings into account, then this kind of bad and unrealistic porn is a problem.

 

[Lieju]

Accidental double-post.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

Well that depends on your definitions of sexism and objectification, something everyone and their dog have a different opinion on.

So my question is thus: do you think pornography is a form of objectification

Depends on someone's definition of 'Objectification'. The people participating in the porn aren't there to get to know you or emotionally appeal to you. It's not some well written work of art. It's there for you to get your rocks off. It's sex, sexiness, and sexual fantasies. Are the people in it being degraded to 'sex objects'? Yes. Could you technically classify that as "Objectification"? Yes. Are you not the sharpest tool in the shed for saying a consensual act between 1 or more adults being filmed is somehow immoral? I'd answer this, but my health bar can't take it.

and should it be either limited in what forms are allowed to be legally made/distrubuted, banned outright, or allowed to exist as it is now?

As it is now. Child Porn is banned because it funds and supports child rape. It's not banned because it's icky or contagious.

And should pornography aimed at both men and women be effected equally, or just pornography aimed at men? Personally, I can see how someone could argue that pornography aimed at men should only be banned, while pornography aimed at women should still exist. I wouldn't agree with them, but I can see how they'd make that arguement.

The people who would support banning porn targeted towards men are the other side of the same damn coin as the people who would say to ban porn aimed at women, and by extension, the people who think women shouldn't be allowed to vote, or work, or enroll in the military.
"I wouldn't agree with them, but I can see how they'd make that arguement."
Can I borrow your mirror? Because I the only way they could make that arguement is by pulling it out of their arse.

Edit: Seems like I forgot a couple of things. First is a question: if you regularly view pornography, but also think that society has serious issues with sexism/objectification, how do you justify your viewership?

It depends on which part of society you're talking about. Not all parts have issues with sexism and objectification. Most don't. It's just some people that do.

Re-reading this it comes off as a bit aggressive. Please know that I'm not going after you, I've just heard these ideas before, and when confronted with the holes that these ideas have in the them, the people that follow them usually react like fundamentalist christians screaming "devil worshipper". The Horse Shoe theory is real.

 

[Gorrath]

Is pornography sexual objectification? - Yes, very much so, though the level of objectification depends on the type of porn. Some of it is ratter innocuous while other types have objectification as a central theme.

Can a type of media that relies on sexual objectification and/or sexism exist in a society free of systemic sexism? - Yes, how we treat people in fantasy does not have to equate to how we treat people in real life, especially when talking systemic sexism. This is like asking if we can have a society free of systemic violence if we allow books or movies which contain violence as a major theme.

But what about the sorts of porn I don't personally like/find offensive/is hardcore/rape fantasy? - See above, you can indulge in sexual fantasies without being prone to act out on said fantasies. Lots and LOTS of people like rape porn, men and women both, because sexual objectification, power, control, sexual dominance and submissiveness can all be indulged in between completely consenting people. Those who would engage in selective censorship of the types of porn they don't like are on no better footing than the puritanical who want to see all porn banned.

But there are problems with real abuse of women and men in the porn industry. - There are, and those problems need to be addressed. One of the best ways to deal with it is through embracing pornography as a society and regulating it. Pushing it into the back corners and dark places helps empower people who abuse others in the industry.

Outright banning pornography might be extreme, I realize, but perhaps making more forms of it illegal and punishable much like child pornography would be the way to go? For example, porn that simulates a women being raped/sexually assaulted by a man would be illegal due to concerns that men who view it might think of women more as sexual objects versus people.

Huge red flag for me here. You're going down the track of, "media made them do it!" If a man with a healthy mind thinks of a woman as a sexual object, this is an opinion that was most certainly informed by more than just his watching of some porn. Even if you can find an instance or instances of men raping women because they wanted to live out a sexual fantasy they saw in a porno, arguing that we should ban the porn would be akin to saying the same about someone who shot up a mall after playing CoD.

 

[carnex]

Porn, as long as it's consensual, is perfectly OK with me. No matter what it depicts. Because it doesn't depict anything people don't want to partake in voluntarily. Even most deprived things are something both genders are seeking for entertainment. To me, again, it's simple matter of what I see as right of people to engage in behavior they want and that does not harm other people (well, you can argue that, but it does not harm directly)

 

[Angelowl]

Ehm... yes? Considering that Feminist Porn Awards exists. Erotica will most certainly continue to exist as long as humans have a sex drive and erotica is simply "tasteful" porn. I am considering doing porn as an art form and side income, even if my market value will soon drop. All that amateur porn? Not done for money, but for something else. Exhinitionists exist and have a safe and legal place in pornography.

 

[babinro]

Can it? Of course...I'm sure plenty of it already exists. Simply display the genuine affections of two consenting partners doing whatever they want to each other.

A lot porn tends to objectify both making one appear superior often through social stereotypes. Sexism seems to exist in nearly all sexual fantasies since they often focus on one persons power over another.

 

[Ramzal]

You do realize there are people who work in pornography and are happy to do so, right? That people have a choice if they want to work in it or not and they are paid well and there is a market for it? I really don't understand why there are people who think it is sexist and need to "purge it from the world". People like different things and just leave it at that and let people watch their porn.

 

[Gorrath]

Can it? Of course...I'm sure plenty of it already exists. Simply display the genuine affections of two consenting partners doing whatever they want to each other.

A lot porn tends to objectify both making one appear superior often through social stereotypes. Sexism seems to exist in nearly all sexual fantasies since they often focus on one persons power over another.

Out of curiosity though, do you find the second part of your statement to be a problem? A lot of people seem to think any objectification or sexism in media is automatically an ethical problem. It's a position I've argued against before. I just can't tell from your statement if you do or do not think it's a problem in this instance.

 

[Gorrath]

You do realize there are people who work in pornography and are happy to do so, right? That people have a choice if they want to work in it or not and they are paid well and there is a market for it? I really don't understand why there are people who think it is sexist and need to "purge it from the world". People like different things and just leave it at that and let people watch their porn.

Many of the portrayals of women and men in pornography, especially hardcore pornography, are sexist and objectifying in nature. It's okay to say that they are and discuss why this is. It's also perfectly fine to state that, just because a portrayal is sexist/objectifying that it is also perfectly okay. Not every instance of sexism or objectification is inherently morally or ethically wrong.

 

[Something Amyss]

Pornography frequently involves acts of abuse and mistreatment of the actors and actresses. When the poll says that porn should stay as it is, does that mean including that?

I am a feminist and I am pro-porn. I am fine with porn and think we should destigmatise it and stand up for the actors and actresses who are, by all accounts, treated like shit. That's right, I support ethics in pornography. The only types of porn I want banned are probably already illegal (sex with children, snuff flicks, etc)

You do realize there are people who work in pornography and are happy to do so, right?

There are people who are happy to work in porn, yes. There are also plenty of people who are not.

That people have a choice if they want to work in it or not and they are paid well and there is a market for it?

Yes, and that choice is especially evident when someone tries to get out of porn and can't find employment elsewhere. Or when they lose current jobs for being discovered. Or when they enter the field due solely to financial hardship, which can lead to the other two.

Funny how "choice" starts to break down in the real world.

Or the hypocrit that rails against it only to be found out that they have a massive porn collection themselves.

I can't speak for your country, but the expectation in the states is to condemn things even if you do them. It's very likely a form of self-preservation, like Jews joining the KKK or gays involving themselves in gay bashing, except usually more passive. Especially since you can bluster and nothing gets done about it.

Granted, I do find it hilarious when some "moral values" type gets caught with a prostitute/gay lover/porn stash that would make me blush, but still.

From what I've heard of straight women, heterosexual porn is in most cases filmed in a way that focuses on the woman, and doesn't look sexually appealing to heterosexual women.

A lot of the time, it looks...painful. Like, seriously.

 

[TallanKhan]

Provided those involved in the production of the pornography are willing participants and no one is harmed then I don't see a problem with it. I don't accept the idea that pornography is harmful to people in terms of the effects it has. Don't get me wrong, someone who learns about sex via pornography is going to have a warped idea of what sex is like, but I believe it is the stigma we attach to sex and sexual activity which is harmful. If we didn't treat sex as "off limits" like it is something shameful teenagers would have a much healthier attitude to sex than they do and wouldn't be left to treat porn like it's some sort of instruction manual.

 

[Something Amyss]

Also yes thats the stuff I was thinking of. That's hilarious when it happens and I don't get these people. Denial I guess might be why? Or maybe they kept it for 'research'.

Hey, it saved Pete Townshend's ass.

 

[Rahkshi500]

If it becomes more diverse, having more ethical treatment and care for its actors and actresses, and still being able to cater to almost any kind of kinks, fetishes, or paraphilias out there without shame, then yes.

 

[Something Amyss]

Hey, it saved Pete Townshend's ass.

Someone used that line and it actually worked....? Not sure who that is granted.[/quote]

Pete Townshend of The Who was busted with child pornography. In fairness, while I made a crack about how the "research" line worked, he had apparently been working with police of at least one country and some sexual abuse activist group, which is the actual reason he got off the charges. So it's not that scary, because it probably was "research."

 

[OldNewNewOld]

Pornography isn't sexist. 2 consenting adults having sex in front of few cameras for monetary compensation isn't sexist.
Sexism is discrimination against someone based solely on the sex.
As long as it's legal, it's okay. Forcing someone to do porn still wouldn't be sexist. It would be bad, it would be illegal, but it wouldn't be sexist.

 

[Something Amyss]

Ah I see. That explains that so benefit of the doubt 'n all.

Makes the album Tommy all that creepier, though.

 

[Ramzal]

Many of the portrayals of women and men in pornography, especially hardcore pornography, are sexist and objectifying in nature. It's okay to say that they are and discuss why this is. It's also perfectly fine to state that, just because a portrayal is sexist/objectifying that it is also perfectly okay. Not every instance of sexism or objectification is inherently morally or ethically wrong.

To you it is sexist/objectifying so yes, it is okay to state that. To some people it is simply attracting/pleasing. Since this becomes a matter of perspective. I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing it necessarily. I think the problem was that I flew off the handle and took it as another example of someone saying "Porn is sexist and it can only exist in a society with sexism". So my fault big time there and very, very stupid of me for doing it.

Pornography frequently involves acts of abuse and mistreatment of the actors and actresses. When the poll says that porn should stay as it is, does that mean including that?

There are people who are happy to work in porn, yes. There are also plenty of people who are not.

This sounds like a personal problem. Generally if I am unhappy at the job I work at, I find a new one and quit the old one. I worked at Walmart for all of 2 days and the BS there was not my cup of tea so I moved on.

Yes, and that choice is especially evident when someone tries to get out of porn and can't find employment elsewhere. Or when they lose current jobs for being discovered. Or when they enter the field due solely to financial hardship, which can lead to the other two.

Funny how "choice" starts to break down in the real world.

Again, this falls within the choice category. The people in pornography--and we're talking legit pornography and not home/real sick stuff involving those who are not of legal age--are legal voting adults who have made a decision. And much like any other decision that an adult makes, they must deal with the consequences of those decisions and the repercussions. Now here is where I think me and you agree:

It is not acceptable for someone to have to feel that they have to stay in a profession they do not feel happy in be it they felt happy one day and just don't anymore or do it because they need money. It's a bad situation to be in and it's only made worse as the possibility of losing another job is there due to being in porn. So I think we agree that situation is pretty bad. So this leads to the next topic of the discussion: A feasible solution.

After all we argue all day about the situation but I think it would be more productive to come to a solution to the problem--otherwise it just becomes a yelling contest. But the only solution I can think of is one where employers would be decent people to acknowledge that what their workers do on their own time is their own business as long as it does not interrupt their company/industry/whatever.