Poll: Can pornography exist in a sexism free society?

Souther Thorn

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The Squid King said:
The general consensus among feminists that I have spoken to is that porn is okay if porn stars are treated with respect by those in charge. This includes stuff like having the option to use contraception, being paid fairly, and having sexual check-ups paid for (as STDs and stuff like that are a potential occupational hazard). Some feminists argue that the concept of porn itself is sexist but people who share that view in my experience are the minority in feminist circles.

That's been my experience by and large as well, with very healthy discussion and friends on many sides of the issue.
I've also seen and read many local examples of the alternative more militant 'All porn is anti-woman and anti-feminist' faction.
One instance at a local university was of a group protesting a male porno actor as a rape enabler, anti-woman, and thouroughly patriarchy supporting shill come to speak to the university and spread a message they disagreed with.
They were quite disappointed to discover the actor in question is gay and only performed in pornography with other men.
From the report I read (this was The Stranger up here in Seattle), they were crestfallen but continued unabated when it was decided that yes, even gay porn is anti woman, and enables rape.
I couldn't fathom that then, and I cannot now.
 

Augustine

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One thing I would want to emphasize is how little actual control we have over the pornography.
It satisfies some of our most primal needs. A REAL need
And as such, it will persevere in one form or the other regardless of what anyone will try to do to suppress/drastically change it.

My opinion of it is quite in line with that of Penn/Teller - porn is all about happy people doing what happy people do.
The form it takes on, merely reflects the society surrounding it. So if anyone wishes to "fix" pornography they ought to start with themselves and work their way outwards through the society, and the industry will change along with it.

Not that I want to suggest there is a need for it. As C.S. Lewis suggested, moral busybodies are the worst tyrants in any society.
 

WarpZone

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Inglorious891 said:
This is a fallacy that I see way too much of in "us vs them" discussions of feminism in general and feminism as it pertains to entertainment industries in particular.

Nobody wants to take your porn away. Nobody wants to take your action movies away. Nobody wants to take your video games away. Nobody wants to take your TV or your books away.

All anybody advocating for female representation in games wants is for developers to commit upfront to chasing a general audience or catering to a specialist audience. As porn has done for as long as we've had cameras.

Feminism isn't a binary property that can be true or false about a society as a whole. Sexism isn't something you can just purge from a culture. You can't turn it on or off by flipping a switch. All you can do is recognize that some interests are more niche than others, and that's okay. You can still have those things exist. Even if it's not popular, even if it's not mainstream, even if it's not generally considered to be good taste.

As long as there's a market for it or at least one artist passionate about making it, it'll still be around.
 

Jennacide

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thaluikhain said:
Jennacide said:
The porn industry as it is now is fine. The things that 'should' be illegal, already are. Sexual slavery, torture porn, those are already illegal.
That doesn't follow that things are fine. Crimes don't stop being a problem just because they are illegal. There are serious concerns with how the porn industry works, how it should be regulated and how workers are treated.
No, THAT doesn't follow. The porn industry, the actual companies making up 99% of the pornographic content, are legal companies and follow the same set of rules. While there is no standarized set of rules for how workers should be treated outside of usual work standard practices, in porn women get to choose what they will and will not do, make higher wages than men, and both sides must routinely be tested to prevent the spread of STDs.

What I think you, and a lot of others, take issue with is the amatuer scene were there are no rules, which is also where all the illegal content like beastiliaty, pedophila, and actual violence/rape goes on. They aren't part of the actual companies making the content. As such, they are held to normal laws of their area, and the law abiding porn companies should not be punished for what those fringes are doing when they are NOT doing them. Remember, it's called the 'amateur' scene because it's just people that buy camcorders or webcams and do whatever the fuck they want. Over regulating the companies already working within the law isn't going to reduce the number of sexual sadists with cameras running around, finding those sadists and prosecuting them for their crimes will. That isn't an issue of needing regulation, just better ways to enforce laws online.
 

Thaluikhain

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Jennacide said:
thaluikhain said:
Jennacide said:
The porn industry as it is now is fine. The things that 'should' be illegal, already are. Sexual slavery, torture porn, those are already illegal.
That doesn't follow that things are fine. Crimes don't stop being a problem just because they are illegal. There are serious concerns with how the porn industry works, how it should be regulated and how workers are treated.
No, THAT doesn't follow. The porn industry, the actual companies making up 99% of the pornographic content, are legal companies and follow the same set of rules. While there is no standarized set of rules for how workers should be treated outside of usual work standard practices, in porn women get to choose what they will and will not do, make higher wages than men, and both sides must routinely be tested to prevent the spread of STDs.
A company being a company doesn't mean there are no problems with it. There are any number of dodgy, if legal practices, and companies that play fast and loose with the law, in porn and in eveyr other industry.
 

Ronald Nand

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Johnisback said:
Ronald Nand said:
I find the presence of pornography depicting rape, violence and 'rough sex' to be very disturbing, so I definitely support banning or censorship of that, I think it should be treated the same way as child pornography, at least for pornography depicting rape, perhaps it would be over-censorship to ban other violent porn.
Let me ask you a question I had poised to me when I once said the same thing to someone else.
Do you have a problem with consenting couples acting out rape fantasies with each other?
If the answer is no, are you not just discriminating against single people who wish to explore this particular sexual fantasy but don't have a partner to do it with?
I suppose when you put it that way, its wrong to stop someone from experiencing their sexual fantasy whether its physically or virtually. If there are two consenting adults whom want to perform rape fantasies, I have no right to stop them from doing that, even if I find what they're doing unsavory.

I'd like to think that I'm the kind of person that accepts what other people in society want to do as long as those actions do not hurt others, I don't want to be the kind of person that imposes my 'morality' upon others. However issues like this really test my ability to do this, I find this kind of content disgusting a disturbing reflection of our society as a whole.

I suppose it comes down to the depiction of negative vs the influence of that depiction. People will argue that things they like don't influence negative behavior, while at the same time arguing that things they don't like influence negative behavior.

If people can get their sexual satisfaction from watching rape porn instead of actually raping someone that I approve of rape porn, no matter how disgusting I find it. If scientific evidence proves that violent porn/rape porn reduces sexual crimes, I will just accept this type of porn's existence.
 

Pinkilicious

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Personally I don't think it's going far enough, child-related and snuff are the only ones that should be banned, for the obvious reasonings that there are already laws against, but just as in America we here in Romania have in some communities 'community standards' and 'obscenity' laws, which can be used to charge you with a crime, even when you have done nothing wrong aside from looking at 'upsetting porn,' the most clearest case of this in the US being Mike Diana and Boiled Angel. The laws coupled with the comics code authority were also used to threaten William Gaines out of comics industry back in the 1950s, leaving them only publishing MAD and nothing else as that wasn't considered a comic under CCA. I feel the anything-goes nature of EC Comics should be emulated across all industry if one truly and freely cares for creativity. Chaos comics come a little close, but have a bit of overfocus on the 'jiggle factor' and the mentality is general mired in the 1990s 'dork age' as US comic fans would call it.
 

Kevlar Eater

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To answer the OP's question without quoting anyone here, yes. Everyone that isn't watching tube porn is being objectified in a sense; the viewer pays for the privilege of watching people usually far more attractive than the viewer screw/masturbate/eat/bathe on camera, and the person (or people) involved in the production get a paycheck. So yes, I think it can exist in a sexism-free society. Erasing and preventing the production of pornography is just another step to a totalitarian society, in my eyes.

Objectification for everyone! Scratch that, objectification for no one! That could be just as much a celebration if one isn't into objectification, yes?
 

Pinkilicious

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Kevlar Eater said:
To answer the OP's question without quoting anyone here, yes. Everyone that isn't watching tube porn is being objectified in a sense; the viewer pays for the privilege of watching people usually far more attractive than the viewer screw/masturbate/eat/bathe on camera, and the person (or people) involved in the production get a paycheck. So yes, I think it can exist in a sexism-free society. Erasing and preventing the production of pornography is just another step to a totalitarian society, in my eyes.

Objectification for everyone! Scratch that, objectification for no one! That could be just as much a celebration if one isn't into objectification, yes?
I have to laugh at the appropriateness of the avatar choice for this sort of comment. :]
Being based on fully empowered actresses and fashion moguls of the past, I think she would be down with this kind of thing.
 

Lt. Rocky

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Of course it can! Desire is desire, lust is lust, everyone has different tastes regardless of gender, and every group is always going to touch upon every kind of sexual preference. Gender and outer personality don't always define one's sexual tastes. Take me for example: I appear as your typical, almost stereotypical, white male gamer. You'd think my sexual tastes would seem straight forward..

Nope! I'll love the feminine form as much as the next guy ..but there's only one instrument out there I'd want Link to blow on personally, forget that ocarina...mmmmmmyes.

The best way to fight sexism (and racism) is with moderation. If too much porn seems aimed at masculine taste, equalize it with some new productions/companies that aim for a feminine taste. Nothing needs to change with what's already established, the less-acknowledged groups just need to be reached out towards more frequently.
 

Inglorious891

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Kevlar Eater said:
Objectification for everyone! Scratch that, objectification for no one! That could be just as much a celebration if one isn't into objectification, yes?
Heh, that's actually a good point. If everyone's objectified, no one's objectified.



WarpZone said:
Inglorious891 said:
This is a fallacy that I see way too much of in "us vs them" discussions of feminism in general and feminism as it pertains to entertainment industries in particular.

Nobody wants to take your porn away. Nobody wants to take your action movies away. Nobody wants to take your video games away. Nobody wants to take your TV or your books away.

All anybody advocating for female representation in games wants is for developers to commit upfront to chasing a general audience or catering to a specialist audience. As porn has done for as long as we've had cameras.

Feminism isn't a binary property that can be true or false about a society as a whole. Sexism isn't something you can just purge from a culture. You can't turn it on or off by flipping a switch. All you can do is recognize that some interests are more niche than others, and that's okay. You can still have those things exist. Even if it's not popular, even if it's not mainstream, even if it's not generally considered to be good taste.

As long as there's a market for it or at least one artist passionate about making it, it'll still be around.
That's only one viewpoint of how media should change to make it less harmful to those who view it; I've seen plenty of people who suggest changing media is the way to go. I'm not saying they're the majority, just that they do exist. The point of this thread is more to respond to them versus respond to people with viewpoints like yours.

And I realize that we'll never be able to completely remove sexism in society, but if society is really striving to purge as much of it as it humanly can, would pornography have to be removed? That's more what I'm referring to.

Lt. Rocky said:
The best way to fight sexism (and racism) is with moderation. If too much porn seems aimed at masculine taste, equalize it with some new productions/companies that aim for a feminine taste. Nothing needs to change with what's already established, the less-acknowledged groups just need to be reached out towards more frequently.

That's... an interesting idea. The big problem with more feminine porn are the questions: who's going to view it, and what is it going to consist of? There are way more men who view porn that women, so making more porn that appeals to women isn't going to be a very quick fix. The other idea is to make porn aimed at men more feminine, although what kind of porn would that be? Porn where the guy is more submissive?

I really like your idea though; it'd be especially neat if men actually started viewing more "feminine" porn.
 

mecegirl

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Inglorious891 said:
That's... an interesting idea. The big problem with more feminine porn are the questions: who's going to view it, and what is it going to consist of? There are way more men who view porn that women, so making more porn that appeals to women isn't going to be a very quick fix. The other idea is to make porn aimed at men more feminine, although what kind of porn would that be? Porn where the guy is more submissive?

I really like your idea though; it'd be especially neat if men actually started viewing more "feminine" porn.
And there will continue to be more men who view porn than women so long as mainstream porn caters primarily to men. Even mainstream lesbian porn caters to men(like why are the "lesbians" pretending to fellate objects?). The transition doesn't need to happen quickly, its only freak accidents that a form a media rapidly gains a new demographic(like Bronies).

I don't know if male performers would need to be more submissive, though I'm sure some women would be into that. Porn is mostly visual. A lot of people stop there and feel that since stereotypically men are more visual that it can never appeal to women. Stereotypically men watch/ read porn vids and magazines, and women read steamy romance novels. So the thought is that women need some in depth narrative framework. But that doesn't explain teenage girl's obsession with pretty male pop singers. Or why TV shows like Arrow and True Blood exist.

Human's are visual creatures, but not all visuals appeal to everyone. With straight mainstream porn it is very common for the camera to focus primarily on the female performer, because part of the appeal of the video is how hot the female performer is. Depending on the style of porn, like POV porn, you don't really see the male performer at all(except for his equipment of course). The girl might even get a few minutes at the beginning of the video to just strut around in lingerie. Tube sites have menus filled with different categories to help folks find what they want to watch. Some of those categories are just about the type of woman in the video. So if you like blondes you can watch video after video featuring blonde women. Or women with larger breasts, or women of a certain race. I can't think of a category centered around the type of man in straight porn videos except the big dick and possibly the Interracial category. And its just as well. A lot of male porn performers aren't much to look at anyway, but when you're getting hired for your equipment I guess that's not surprising. Mainstream porn objectifies women and there's a limit to how much a straight woman is gonna gravitate towards something of that nature for sexual gratification because she's physically attracted to men. So basically one way to make porn for women is to flip the dynamic. To have the male performers be the focus of the video. Or to make more videos that splits the focus between both performers.
 

WarpZone

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Inglorious891 said:
That's only one viewpoint of how media should change to make it less harmful to those who view it; I've seen plenty of people who suggest changing media is the way to go. I'm not saying they're the majority, just that they do exist. The point of this thread is more to respond to them versus respond to people with viewpoints like yours.

And I realize that we'll never be able to completely remove sexism in society, but if society is really striving to purge as much of it as it humanly can, would pornography have to be removed? That's more what I'm referring to.
Can't, therefore won't. Because markets.

I would also argue shouldn't, but I admit that part's debatable.