Poll: Can you hate gay culture and not be homophobic?

[AlexLoxate]

If someone defines his/herself by their sexuality then they're pretty bland.

 

[wolf92]

I think so, yeah. I mean, you can dislike gays for ceartin reasons, like making out in public, but homophobia is hating them just for being gay. Just like you can hate black rappers, but that doesn't mean you hate black people

 

[thehorror2]

I'm an equal-opportunity loner. If someone gets in my face for any reason, whether it's their sexuality, race, hobbies, a cause they're going on about, it doesn't matter. I will try to avoid them, and push them away if needed.

 

[Mischa87]

Well, probably yes..

However, the actual meaning of homophobia has been forgotten to a large degree. People who use the word often don't realize that the vast majority of the human race (including many gay people) are homophobic, and it's not really a very bad thing. It's certainly not as bad as being prejudiced or discriminatory.

Now, let's talk about privilege for a second.

A lot of you claim you "don't flaunt" your sexuality. I'll tell you, unless you actively closet yourself (by never being seen with your partners in public, by never describing someone as your wife or girlfriend, by never talking about your children. In short, by deliberately hiding your romantic or personal life altogether, and even then you're not really closeting because no-one will ever assume you're gay without evidence) then you are "flaunting" your sexuality. The reason you don't see yourself as taking part in a "culture" is because that culture is the one we all live in, it's mainstream mass culture.

A gay person has a very clear choice ahead of them, they can not talk about their sexuality, which means being 'closeted' (and often having quite unpleasant social consequences from ultimately being 'outed'), or they can talk openly about it, which means "flaunting" it. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority choose to undergo the scorn of people like those who seem to have descended upon this thread and "flaunt" their sexuality as if it's something worth being proud of, because from an outside perspective it's very easy to see how proud you all are of your sexuality - you tell everyone about it all the time, the only reason you don't see yourself doing it is because 'everyone else' does the same things.

Now, the second thing that really bugs me about this argument.

Why do gay people have to be so different? Why do gay men have to be all flamboyant and camp? Why do gay women often adopt exaggerated 'masculine' (or ultra-feminine) styling or wear piercings? Why do people have to wear leather at pride parades? Why do gay men have to wear makeup? Etc.

The answer, they really don't and if you were to actually involve yourself in a gay lifestyle you'll realize that such people are the tip of the iceberg. However, once again, this is about closeting, these are very useful and easy ways for someone to delineate themselves visually. These tropes are actually, for the most part, based on old stereotypes about gay people (particularly the idea that gay people are by by nature less masculine/feminine, or that this has more to do with them as people than it does with the definition of masculine or feminine).

The interesting thing about those stereotypes is that they highlight a rather weird (when you think about it) conflation which lies pretty close to the root of homophobia, the association between homosexuality and gender non-conformity. I don't want to call the self-conscious adoption of gender non-conformity in the pride movement a conscious protest because it doesn't rely on everyone who does it understanding it, but it is a very political adoption. If there is no room in our culture for a little gender non-conformity, there will never be room for men to have sex with men or women to have sex with women.

So basically, yeah, what are you upset by?

Call me wrong, but the way I interpret your point (and I'm by no means excluding everyone who responded, because some of you badly need to check your insecurity) is that gay people need to shut up and be more 'normal'. Just bear in mind that you live in a world where being "normal" means being "straight", absolutely and by definition. There's no way around that.

For the record, I don't like mainstream gay culture. I'm just not stupid enough to call it 'gay culture' as if there's no way to blend being countercultural with being gay (because, you know, movements like the original 'counterculture', or later punk and goth, modern anime geek culture etc. never provided any kind of shelter for people to be open about their sexuality before Lady Gaga so much as crawled out of the womb). I like mainstream "straight culture" (or "culture", as we call it) even less, but I'm not stupid enough to assume that no straight people feel the same.

But the right to be non-conformist, whether in gender or lifestyle or sexuality. That's something I can get behind, be careful you don't stamp on it.

Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.

I'm glad someone had the intellectual fortitude to put this out here, very well put. Personally though, I would of elaborated upon how hetero lifestyles are constantly pushed upon everyone, and how you almost never see queer people complaining about it (Not to mention, it's not just affecting queer people, it's affecting everyone, I mean, look at American beer TV ads, do you straight white men think the way you're depicted in those ads is a correct view?)

One could say for anyone who has read your reply, and actually has a relatively open mind, pretty sure anything else said here is just beating a dead horse (Or in other words /thread)

Really glad there's someone here that's above the same tired "I don't mind them as long as they aren't making their sexuality public" (Which is probably putting it more intelligently than a lot of those people would)

Kudos to you.

 

[Wargamer]

I for one cannot stand the 'camp gay' archetype; the man in a pink shirt, tight jeans, wearing women's jewellery and talks with that fucking god-awful "I'm gonna thalp you thilly!" lisp they put on. Fucking hell, I want to shoot every last one of the faggots!

Now keep the following in mind; I have slept with more men than women. I lost my virginity to another man. I am Bisexual, but the track record suggests I'm far closer to the Gay side of the scale... and I HATE CAMP GAYS.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

In short, by deliberately hiding your romantic or personal life altogether, and even then you're not really closeting because no-one will ever assume you're gay without evidence) then you are "flaunting" your sexuality.

So, the only way to not flaunt your heterosexuality is to say you're homosexual?

Isn't that just a teensy weensy bit black and white for a very grey spectrum?

How about "My sexuality doesn't matter to you or anyone else, and any ideas of me 'flaunting' it are simply preconceptions built by your own experiences."

Because you don't know if I'm having sex as I write this. And you certainly don't know who/what with.

 

[Sporky111]

I'm gay, and I even hate some things about "gay culture". Well, not really hate, but I just don't understand them. Like the gay lisp. But there's usually something about straight folks that draws a parallel (Gay Lisp = Valley Girls?)

I like to think of gay guys flaunting their sexuality as on the same level as girls who go out with little more than a bra and Daisy Dukes. Meaning, they're looking to attract someone and putting up a good appearance is the most effective way to do that. Now if a girl like that were to approach me and act flirty, it would make me extremely uncomfortable.

My point is; it's not necessarily gay culture you hate.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

So if you like homosexuals you are homophilic
if you dont like homosexuals you are homophobic
see how "fear" is not a necessary component of being homophobic?

Nope. If you are turned on by homosexuals, you are homophilic (You can still be straight). If you are repulsed by homosexuals (dislike isn't strong enough), then you're homophobic. (Equally, you can be a homophobic gay quite easily.)

Gay men aren't automatically gynophobic (Repulsed by women) but can be misogynist. (Hating women) This still doesn't mean they avoid women.

Fear is just how humanity show repulsion.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Like the gay lisp.

That's historical. The gay lisp is from exaggeration of the "Swish" lifestle/Polari and is akin to straight men breathing in when a woman goes past - or women playing with their hair. It's just a mating call of sorts.

 

[AdmiralMemo]

I like to think of gay guys flaunting their sexuality as on the same level as girls who go out with little more than a bra and Daisy Dukes. Meaning, they're looking to attract someone and putting up a good appearance is the most effective way to do that. Now if a girl like that were to approach me and act flirty, it would make me extremely uncomfortable.

I'm straight and it would make me uncomfortable, too.

 

[Geekosaurus]

You may not like it, but so long as you respect their choice then it's not homophobic - it's just your opinion.

 

[Sewer Rat]

I honestly don't care what people like to hump, Whatever takes place between two consensual adults in the privacy of their own home is none of my concern. It's only when they flaunt it that I start getting uncomfortable with it. This does not apply to just gays, I am a straight man and I hate it when another straight man starts going on about his sex life. Overall, keep it in your pants, if I wanted to know, I would ask. I understand if they feel it is important for someone to know when they first meet to avoid future tension, but just say "I'm gay" and leave it at that, we don't need a novel's worth of actions to confirm that fact.

 

[Sporky111]

Like the gay lisp.

That's historical. The gay lisp is from exaggeration of the "Swish" lifestle/Polari and is akin to straight men breathing in when a woman goes past - or women playing with their hair. It's just a mating call of sorts.

Hmm, now I'm going to want to look into this. Thanks!

 

[girzwald]

Yes, you in fact can. And in fact, most people are NOT homophobic.

The whole homophobic thing is been blown WAY out of proportion. Anything and everything that does not either 100% accept or praise homosexuality is deemed "homophobic".

I don't like homosexuality, I think its wrong. HOMOPHOBE!

I think gay pride parades have turned into disgusting displays of debauchery. HOMOPHOBE.

I think 2 dudes making out in public is a disgusting and unappealing sight. HOMOPHOBE.

It's all just political correctness and therefor bullying into accepting a lifestyle that most people don't approve of. They don't want tolerance. They already have that. No, they want acceptance. And bullying people into acceptance, when they already tolerate......only pushes more people away.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Hmm, now I'm going to want to look into this. Thanks!

Start with "Round the Horne" - that's one of the first times it became publicly accepted. (Kenneth Williams slipped it in (ooh-er) to public consciousness)

 

[DoomyMcDoom]

yeah, you can hate a lot of things specifically about a steriotype without being considered "against" anyone, I mean I personally can't stand people critisizing my style because I don't dress exactly the way they think I should, I mean when it's coming from someone who dresses in a colour scheme that makes my little pony look like a black and white film by comparison, I'll take my earthy laid back colour scheme thank you very much, after all I'm a ladies man, and the ladies don't seem to mind my style one bit!

but I mean I have friends who are gay, but I don't care that they are, cuz they're cool people, they respect that I'd rather not have discussions about their sex lives, and generally, that's true for my straight friends too, usually we just chat about video games, cars, new and or newly discovered music, y'know enjoyable subject topics that EVERYONE talks about, like politics, sociopolitical structure and how it should be altered to allow society to be constructive rather than destructive.

fun stuff.

but yeah I find the flamboyant ones to "usually" be really annoying, though I've met a few sorta flamboyant gays who were funny and good in conversation, so it's not like just being flamboyant in some way is annoying to me, it's the overly critical extremely in your face and automatically defensive, egomaniac behavior that gets to me...