Poll: Do you agree with the criminalisation of drug use?

[CrystalViolet]

-snip-

In your system, people would still use it and control would still be in the hands of the cartels.

I'd like to see someone try justifying legalizing meth, heroin, ketamine, or bath salts though.

Well my biggest justification is that criminalising the users doesn't work and is morally reprehensible. How could you possibly support treating use as a criminal as opposed to medical issue?

On a practical level though in a system where drugs are sold by licensed vendors there would be far less demand for crazy dangerous drugs. A drug dealer doesn't ask for ID and doesn't tell you that there's an X mg dosage of this unadulterated product at this potency. Most people aren't going to take contaminated heroin when there's clean opium available.

Meth could be dosage controlled (much like it is when it's legally prescribed) and purified, but again, no one would want to take it when methylphenidates and clean amphetamines are available.

Ketamine is currently under investigation because many scientists have found that it relieves treatment-resistant symptoms of bipolar disorder and clinical depression at small doses: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25374095 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25347227 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25341010

I don't know anything about bath salts so I can't say.

-snip-

Why would possibly want that?

Things like meth or heroin are too dangerous to be allowed for general consumption.

The idea is to make alternatives available. People wouldn't abuse heroin if clean opium under supervision would be available.

Ben Elton book...

No I have yet to read it but I read about a book a week. Thanks for the recommendation! I'll add it to the list

Edit: Ketamine is actually showing some potential in medicine, specifically in treating depression. That's another issue: prohibition is making it very difficult to research the effects of psychoactive drugs, some of which have very promising effects on addiction, depression, and other issues that deal with negative patterns of thought/behaviour and general lack of finding fulfillment/joy in life.

I've agreed with everything you've said but this is by far your greatest contribution to this thread. I'm so glad you brought that up since this is a topic that I feel very strongly about. There are so many arbitrarily prohibited drugs which research have shown could have extremely powerful medical benefits:

Marijuana: Multiple sclerosis, chemo sickness
Psilocybin (mushrooms): Cluster headaches
MDMA (Ecstasy): PTSD
LSD: Addiction, depression
Ketamine: Bi-polar disorder, depression
Amphetamine: Sleep apnoea, narcolepsy, ADHD

I could go on. Seriously, I could list a dozen more. I can back up every one of these with peer-reviewed references.

You need more choices. I would legalize Marijuana, Ecstasy and Heroin. Heck, maybe even cocaine. The only drug I would still ban would be crystal meth, because if you've ever worked in ED you know exactly how terrible that drug can be.

I would agree with most of what you said in your post but if by banning meth you mean criminalising its use then I just don't agree with you. My proposed model would mostly deal with the issue without infringing on people's freedoms. What do you mean by "ED" though? Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker I have seen how meth affects people though because I was a police detective for two years.

 

[Nergui]

Some of these so-called illegal drugs already have a legal use. Here in Australia, Cocaine is used as a local anaesthetic by dentists and sometimes as an appetite suppressant. Heroin and Morphine both come from the opium poppy and are essentially the same drug with different refining methods.

Prohibition has never worked and never will. Increasingly expensive law enforement along with increaingly severe incarceration has no effect on trafficing or usage. Prohibition's only apparent value seems to be as political rhetoric for election promises.

Legalization, regulation and taxes will not only have a greater effect in reducing their usage, the government would gain tax revenues instead of a budget black hole.

 

[CrystalViolet]

Here in Australia, Cocaine is used as a local anaesthetic by dentists and sometimes as an appetite suppressant.

I think that might be novacaine you're talking about but I could be wrong. Maybe they use cocaine in Australia

Heroin and Morphine both come from the opium poppy and are essentially the same drug with different refining methods.

I do agree with your sentiments but this isn't strictly speaking true. Heroin (dimorphine) is a semi-synthetic opiate derived from opium and there are some pretty big differences between that and morphine. It's not really correct to say that they're essentially the same.

Prohibition's only apparent value seems to be as political rhetoric for election promises.

Bingo! Could not agree more. It seems politic often use the whole drugs issue as a pet to bring out for mass appeal to the voter base regardless of policy findings or research.

...instead of a budget black hole.

That's a great way to put it! I hope you don't mind if I use that

 

[zumbledum]

In part the effects of alcohol are so apparent because use is so widespread - sure, it has a net societal cost higher than crack cocaine or heroin, but that's because far more people use alcohol. Hard drugs typically have a much more pronounced negative effect on an individual than alcohol does. Refrigerators kill more people than landmines in Western countries, but that's no argument for legalising landmines and selling them to the public.

I used to be a barman. Sure, alcohol often led to silly pranks, people falling over, accidents, fights, etc - but I never stood there and thought to myself "This situation would be much better if everyone was high on drugs instead". That's a friggin' terrifying thought.

never been to a rave? ever seen a large crowd of people on MDMA? it is sooo much better than any alcohol fueled event. a room full of people on heroin are sitting quietly and smiling

i am curious as to what hard drugs you think have a more negative social affects than alcohol , on a per person basis not net. i mean heroin addicts are more capable of holding down a job and functioning in societal norms than alcoholics. and if your more destructive than the big bad H i have to wonder whats worse. i think people accept the damage alcohol does because its normal, its part of the plan, its like how when soldiers die its ok , but one cute blonde co-ed takes one to the brain pan and people loose their shit. if you sit back and add it up its quite surprising just how destructive our legal hard drug does.

Secondly, the societal costs associated with alcohol are partly due to culture. If we got society to move past the idea that the best state to socialise is while drunk and the best way to attract somebody of the opposite sex is to drink until your logical faculties are impaired and then attempt non-verbal communication in a darkened room filled with deafening music and crammed with other drunk people, we might see less alcohol-fueled stupidity. There are parts of Europe, for example, that are much more liberal and open about drinking alcohol, but suffer less associated crime and antisocial behaviour.

yeah have to agree if we could just get everyone onto X and MDMA things would be better across the board.
Im not sure its a liberal thing, were talking about Scandinavian countries here aren't we? but there are too many other things to consider, better education , lower population densities, higher standard of living, better social support mechanisms. the same countries have lower violent crimes in general , less gun crimes , less of everything that comes along with poverty.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

The poll needed an option for legalized possession and criminalized dealing.

On a practical level though in a system where drugs are sold by licensed vendors there would be far less demand for crazy dangerous drugs. A drug dealer doesn't ask for ID and doesn't tell you that there's an X mg dosage of this unadulterated product at this potency. Most people aren't going to take contaminated heroin when there's clean opium available.

Meth could be dosage controlled (much like it is when it's legally prescribed) and purified, but again, no one would want to take it when methylphenidates and clean amphetamines are available.

Ketamine is currently under investigation because many scientists have found that it relieves treatment-resistant symptoms of bipolar disorder and clinical depression at small doses: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25374095 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25347227 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25341010

I don't know anything about bath salts so I can't say.

The biggest problem I can see with this is that wherever you have you have regulation is a place where those who sold it illegally can sneak in. Make it so that kids can't buy hard drugs and suddenly they are going to be the biggest consumer base of drug dealers.

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of alcohol as it is, never got the appeal of chemically inducing happiness. And I've seen plenty of people make absolutely idiotic, criminal offenses while drunk that they'd never have done while sober. That being said, as long as its only them who's hurt I don't think that the law has much business intervening. The second you have dependents though, I think that it becomes a whole different story. Having kids around when you're high out of your mind sounds like an awful combination

 

[ThreeName]

There's no decriminalisation but illegal option. My view are not represented.

Sadface.

 

[spartan231490]

You don't have an option up there which closely resembles decriminalization, a la Portugal. There, drug use is illegal, but it's on a level with traffic tickets. and they usually decide not to prosecute, instead forcing you to go to a counseling session or rehab depending on how many or how frequent previous offenses you have. That is the way it should work, drugs are too dangerous and harmful to society as whole(lost productivity and increased medical costs) to endorse it, but criminalization like in the US just increases addiction rates and feeds criminal organizations. However, the system in Portugal breaks down the mystery of it, as well as the stigma, which helps people avoid getting addicted, and helps them get help when they do get addicted.

 

[Ruuvan]

It's fairly easy to see how Marijuana could be made legal, monitored and taxed, not so much with other substances. Smoking weed is no different to smoking a roll-up to most people. I've not met any angry or dangerous stoners, not to say they don't exist I'm sure.

It would be very hard to accomplish so I don't think anything will really change. Unless it starts getting taken up by more and more places no leader is going to have the nuts to say "Fuck it, let's give it a go" (talking mainly about the UK, as that's where I am). I would love it if it could just happen already!

Things take too long.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

Do you really think the consumption of bath salts and meth would rise significantly if they were made legal and regulated? How many people do you know that would start doing bath salts if it became legal?

I have an answer for that, and it's fucktons. Mephedrone was legal until a couple of years ago in the UK and it was pretty much a free for all on par with the early 90's love for MDMA. Not that these people wouldn't have been doing something else anyway, but if there's something legal that'll get you high almost like something else that's illegal, people will take it. Now it's illegal again people are back to MDMA.

Not challenging your overall point, just being a smart arsed nitpicker.

 

[The Towel Boy]

I believe that only medicinal/recreational marijuana should be taxed and legalized, under certain regulations of course. But, as for any other drug such as cocaine, meth, or any drug of those natures, should still be illegal. I work in a jail and have seen the people on this stuff losing their minds before they finally cool down (about 24 hours later at the latest!). Trust me, it would be a bad idea to have pcp/heroine/or cocaine users commonly walking down the street... it's a disaster that would erupt very quickly...

 

[Mr_Spanky]

Medical yes.

Legal no.

There ends the lesson bitches

 

[Jonluw]

I have an answer for that, and it's fucktons. Mephedrone was legal until a couple of years ago in the UK and it was pretty much a free for all on par with the early 90's love for MDMA. Not that these people wouldn't have been doing something else anyway, but if there's something legal that'll get you high almost like something else that's illegal, people will take it. Now it's illegal again people are back to MDMA.

Not challenging your overall point, just being a smart arsed nitpicker.

I might have been unclear. I didn't mean to imply only meth and bathsalts were made legal in the hypothetical.
Of course if they were the only drugs to be made legal their use would increase as people who woul otherwise use safer illegal drugs now decide to sacrifice their health for the comfort of legal drugs.

It's like how no one in their right mind would ever do synthetic cannabis (spice) if they had a choice between it and the real deal, but since cannabis is illegal and spice is(was) not, people will smoke that horrible substance just to not deal with the fuzz and because they haven't been properly educated about it.
Sort of reminds me of how lots of people who have no business doing salvia are/were doing it anyway since it's legal.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

I might have been unclear. SNIP

No, you weren't being unclear, as I said, I wasn't challenging your point, just being a smart arsed nitpicker. You know, the old internet "ha, I can interject here and look knowledgeable if I ignore the intent of this statement and go with the literal out of context interpretation"

 

[Jonluw]

Edit: Ketamine is actually showing some potential in medicine, specifically in treating depression. That's another issue: prohibition is making it very difficult to research the effects of psychoactive drugs, some of which have very promising effects on addiction, depression, and other issues that deal with negative patterns of thought/behaviour and general lack of finding fulfillment/joy in life.

I've agreed with everything you've said but this is by far your greatest contribution to this thread. I'm so glad you brought that up since this is a topic that I feel very strongly about. There are so many arbitrarily prohibited drugs which research have shown could have extremely powerful medical benefits:

Marijuana: Multiple sclerosis, chemo sickness
Psilocybin (mushrooms): Cluster headaches
MDMA (Ecstasy): PTSD
LSD: Addiction, depression
Ketamine: Bi-polar disorder, depression
Amphetamine: Sleep apnoea, narcolepsy, ADHD

I could go on. Seriously, I could list a dozen more. I can back up every one of these with peer-reviewed references.

Truly, the setback of psychedelic medicine is one of the saddest facts of the war on drugs.
These substances have been demonized to the point where it's completely unthinkable to most people that one of the best ways to help a heroin addict could be to give them some LSD with a psychologist. All this because they've mentally placed LSD and heroin in the same category, which is just so ridiculous I can't fathom it.

Hell, even in non-therapeutic contexts I think some variety in people's drug consumption would be great. If people would only skip one of their weekly alcohol binges in favor of doing some MDMA, letting loose and realizing they love eachother with a clear head instead of the sedated alcoholic state, I genuinely think the world would be quite a better place. But people won't do that because they think it's horribly dangerous, when in truth it's far more benign than the alcohol which they drink to the point of being unable to walk.

 

[Jonluw]

I might have been unclear. SNIP

No, you weren't being unclear, as I said, I wasn't challenging your point, just being a smart arsed nitpicker.

Well alrighty then.

 

[default]

I agree with Thaluikhain. I don't think any reasonable person could consider drug use a 'choice'. Addiction removes choice by definition. Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves.

Consider just how many people are in prison for years because of marijuana convictions. Is a few minutes of getting high worth decades of incarceration? Is smoking that blunt really worth more than your freedom?

These people are too irresponsible to be left to their own devices.

What the fuck dude? That doesn't even make sense. In that case it's not the drug that's doing the damage to the person, weed is almost entirely harmless. It's the government and the (misguided) laws surrounding it. You have no clue.

edit: I just read some of your other replies. You're an idiot and you have no idea what you're talking about.


Yeah, I said before in another thread about smoking that I think all drugs should be legal for use, unless it starts directly negatively affecting others which is when the law can step in. I know a lot of casual cocaine and MDMA users who just take it a couple of times a year, chill out and have a good time, and don't bother anyone. They aren't getting into cars and killing children, they aren't suddenly plunging into a drug-addicted downward spiral, they aren't destroying the country, and guess what? The vast majority of casual, recreational drug users are the same.

Hard, life-destroying drugs like crystal meth and heroine should be banned, just as drinking gasoline is banned.

Granted, I also know people who are completely fucked by using drugs nearly every day. But how many alcoholics are there in the world? People addicted to sugar or television or video games who end up destroying their lives and bodies? It's the same thing, just a different tune.


There's a lot of miseducation surrounding the subject of drugs. Christ, it is painfully apparent in this thread.

 

[ObserverStatus]

I have no problem with legalizing Marijuana. As for more dangerous drugs, I don't think we should be putting people in prison for using them, but they should still stay illegal, to give the government a precedent to force addicts who are a danger to others into treatment.

 

[revjay]

I voted to decriminalize all drugs. I should add that I also think marijuana should be legal as well.

 

[Solsbury_Grille]

Any society that winks a little harmless pot smoking pretty much deserves whatever it gets from any other drug use. If you're okay with one, you might as well be okay with them all.

Personally, I say legalize it all in whatever quantity you like. If you truly want to defang the Cartels, you're going to have to make it all legal. You will throw away a couple of generations of kids, but they'll eventually figure out this garbage is as bad as Mom & Dad said it was.

And for the love of all that is holy, would you stoners PLEASE stop with the, "oh-but-it-will-make-US-so-much-tax-revenue" crap? Colorado projected $33.5M in taxes until Captain Herbal Life figured out he could grow it at home. They took in about $10M, a third of what they thought would come in.

Don't piss on our leg and tell us it's raining.

 

[default]

Any society that winks a little harmless pot smoking pretty much deserves whatever it gets from any other drug use. If you're okay with one, you might as well be okay with them all.

Personally, I say legalize it all in whatever quantity you like. If you truly want to defang the Cartels, you're going to have to make it all legal. You will throw away a couple of generations of kids, but they'll eventually figure out this garbage is as bad as Mom & Dad said it was.

And for the love of all that is holy, would you stoners PLEASE stop with the, "oh-but-it-will-make-US-so-much-tax-revenue" crap? Colorado projected $33.5M in taxes until Captain Herbal Life figured out he could grow it at home. They took in about $10M, a third of what they thought would come in.

Don't piss on our leg and tell us it's raining.

There's no way to compare smoking weed and crystal meth. That's like saying it's okay to eat some candy a couple of times a week, so it must be fine to pour a barrel of maple syrup down your throat a couple of times a week too.

As for the tax stuff, I don't think it should even be an issue that people address. It seems to me like a fruitless, desperate attempt to get a deaf government to listen by luring them with the sounds of rustling dollar notes.