Poll: Do you support evolution?

Recommended Videos

EclipseoftheDarkSun

New member
Sep 11, 2009
230
0
0
Yopaz said:
Also moths don't evolve to change colour in response to the environment. There needs to be moths with the specific colour scheme (or moths with seasonal changes as a part of their genes). The moths that have the advantageous phenotype will grow in numbers due to natural selection.
Bzzt! Wrong. Evolution consists of natural variation in offspring coupled with natural selection for those that best fit the environment/interact with other organisms in that environment. What you just described *IS* evolution.

Variation in moths. Natural selection for those moths that best fit the environment who go on to have offspring that are more likely to be like their parents. The gene pool (of the species/pool of organisms) has thus shuffled. That's evolution.
 

BiscuitTrouser

Elite Member
May 19, 2008
2,859
0
41
Deathmageddon said:
Theistic Evolutionism: because there are practical issues with atheism (you can either delude yourself into thinking life has meaning and thus there's a point to scientific inquiry, or be a nihilist and spend the rest of your life contemplating suicide), time is relative, and why would God have removed any doubt of His existence by spoiling hundreds of years of research anyway? Giving Moses a simplified version of events makes a great test of faith, too.

Short version: it's impossible to live happily and consistently as an atheist, but evolution is fact. Therefore, theistic evolutionism is the best way to reconcile fact with truth.
Oh dear. You think only militant atheists will be offended by the statement "YOURE NOT HAPPY! AND IF YOU ARE YOURE A LIAR! BE SAD YOU LYING FILTH!"? Its a liiiiiiiittle inflammatory. Maybe? Perhaps? Anyway.

I dont give a fuck about this dawkins bloke or anything he has to say. Period. I dont want to think about why he does the things he does because the best thing about atheism is my beliefs are my own. What another atheist thinks about atheism doesnt matter to me in the slightest.

The point of scientific enquiry is to make me happy and make others around me happy using those advances which in turn makes me happy. I enjoy learning. I like discovery. Im not particularly sure WHY but i do. So I get involved. I also like helping people and seeing them happy. Inventing and helping people with science makes people happy. So I'm going to be a doctor (WHOOO MED SCHOOL IN A MONTH :D). Im happy. Im consistant. There isnt a "Point" in the sense that there is an objective point but i dont need or want one. The fact that making others happy makes me happy is also why im moral.

If the great apes manage to be happy without god so can I XD My dog manages it too. Its hardly difficult. They also both manage fairly easily to be moral. Its not a great task to manage both without religion. And you claiming that it is amuses me. You cant rationalise the world as well as my dog? Nice one. If animals can do it why cant i? They are happy and moral atheists. Im a happy and moral atheist.

Im happy and consistent >:D
 

EstrogenicMuscle

New member
Sep 7, 2012
545
0
0
Nah, I defy evolution with my sexuality. By finding pretty much none of the things people tell me I was supposed to have evolved to find attractive, as attractive. That's what people keep telling me at least.

"Ewww you don't think that girls with anything lower that DD breasts are attractive, you're going against millions of years of evolution, you're a genetic failure! You're a beta! You're objectively unattractive! You're failed selection! Your genes don't belong in the pool!"

Said Evo. Psych enthusiast 9001.

No, seriously, I believe in evolution. Doesn't everyone who isn't certifiably crazy, like evangelical Christians?
Anyone who doesn't believe in evolution is being completely and utterly ridiculous and is what is making people like me lose faith in humanity. Anyone who doesn't believe in evolution needs to read a book and get educated. Because not believing in evolution is just like believing that the world is flat. Full stop.

My opinion on evolutionary psychology is a bit different, though. In fact, I'm pretty skeptical of a lot of psychology in general. Psychology as a whole is a very flawed field. You'd think that bringing science into the matter like evolution would immediately help matters. But it's not, it's making things worse. It's a fledgling science with loads and loads of racist and sexists putting in their opinion that because something is seen in society, it must be neurological. So many unsubstantiated claims, it's unreal. It's like they took the scientific concept of evolution and put everything bad about the field of psychology in there.

People who take very seriously most of the claims made in the field need to be aware that neurology has a long way to go to verifying these hypotheses. And, to put it frankly speaking, most evolutionary psychologists are talking completely out of their ass.

If you thought that Satoshi Kanazawa had particularly uncommon views within the area of evolutionary psychology and was an outlier, you'd be wrong.
 

MiskWisk

New member
Mar 17, 2012
856
0
0
Deathmageddon said:
Short version: it's impossible to live happily and consistently as an atheist, but evolution is fact. Therefore, theistic evolutionism is the best way to reconcile fact with truth.


I personally live quite happily and consistently as an atheist and you have just stated that your opinion is incontrovertible fact, backed up by your opinion.
 

Clive Howlitzer

New member
Jan 27, 2011
2,781
0
0
I think we should focus on supporting gravity instead because if this thing doesn't get enough support, we are all fucked.
 

Joccaren

Elite Member
Mar 29, 2011
2,597
3
43
Terramax said:
Joccaren said:
I believe in neither. 'Believe' implies some level of faith, implies that I do not know which is correct and which isn't but I have chosen anyway. This is not true.
I'm under the similar way of thinking.

But my conclusion is - who cares how the world was created? Has it not occurred to people that, seeing as we don't naturally, instinctively know the reason, we're not supposed to know or care about the how or why?
I wouldn't go so far as we're not supposed to now, more that we don't really need to know. Its not relevant to this day and age, beyond knowledge seeking. There are a few things we could learn from it, and it would probably help us better understand and model the universe, but our time would be better spent looking at what there is now, and how to manipulate that, then looking at the exact details of how it all began.
 
Apr 8, 2010
463
0
0
Lightknight said:
The idea that the speed of light is a local constant would lend to some examples like that being basically useful. Any variances would be small enough to be inconsistent. But this would certainly explain why I didn't have a ton of coursework that used the constant.
Eh? The light speed in vacuum is not only a local constant - it's a basic one. All of todays physics builds upon the idea that the speed of light is a fundamental constant. In fact, the observation (for instance seen in the Michelson-Morley experiment from 1887) that the
speed of light is constant even though one moves (which should change the speed relative to you) forms the backbone on which special
(and by extension, general relativity, too) is build.

Granted, there are theories which predict that some of the most fundamental constants aren't constants but change slightly on cosmic timescales. For all intents and purposes, however, current physics rests upon the assumption that those are indeed constant - and this also includes general relativity which explains for instance why light can be bend by gravitational effects and somesuch.

As an addition, I recalled that you can indeed also write your energy-dispersion E = \sqrt{(m_0 c^2)^2 + (pc)^2} in the form E = mc^2. The crucial point is that in this case the mass m is not the rest mass m_0 of the particle but m = m_0 * gamma where gamma is the gamma factor [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_factor] known from special relativity that includes the relative speed of what you are looking at to the speed of light. So you can write the energy in the short form if you are careful what you mean with the mass here.

BiscuitTrouser said:
Not to mention the entropy rule is only correct in a closed system.
A nitpick: what you are talking about is an isolated system. In physics one usually differentiates between,

Isolated systems: No energy and particle exchange with the environment
Closed systems: No particle exchange with the environment
Open systems: Both energy and particle exchange with the environment

Just to make sure you use the right terminology :)

gamernerdtg2 said:
Again, I am not into quantum theory. They use the word "created" but then they also use "implications" which I take to mean that it's not scientific fact. There is sort of a mystic quality to the last observation that I appreciate. Perhaps science will prove this to be completely false. I simply can't look at this information without being "affected" or with a "heart of stone" or "like a machine spitting out answers to questions" as though the topic of the universe is vapid (again, I'm referring Charles Darwin).
Quantum theory is a complicated mess. There are various interpretations to what the stuff that the math says actually means. Suffice to say, though, the effects you cited - virtual particle production through the energy time uncertainty, the vacuum not as an empty void but a boiling sea of virtual particles - is sort of a basic phenomenological interpretation to explain stuff that happens when you couple Quantum Theory with Special Relativity in the Quantum Field Theories that form the backbone of elementary particle physics today.

So while there is considerable freedom in trying to find out what the math means it's very much certain that predictions build upon it work. For instance, the transistors in your computer were in essence build upon predictions from Quantum Mechanics.

gamernerdtg2 said:
I agree that the OP is blatantly biased, but wow this is great information! You know, the carbon dating thing has always been "accepted" as not 100% accurate. I wasn't thinking about that...
I'd be careful with that. It seems to be a common argument to from the creationist sides to push their own agenda by making up shit that supposedly disproves "carbon dating" and somesuch. Bassik a geologist had, to my knowledge, wrote some interesting posts to disprove some of those claims back in the day - most notably that some specific dating techniques which where never meant to be applied to larger timescales don't work on those scales, implying that others don't work, too which is obviously a fallacy.

EDIT: Also BrassButtons is correct with regards to the post you quoted. Be very careful about what it says.
 
Apr 8, 2010
463
0
0
Deathmageddon said:
Theistic Evolutionism: because there are practical issues with atheism (you can either delude yourself into thinking life has meaning and thus there's a point to scientific inquiry, or be a nihilist and spend the rest of your life contemplating suicide)...
...or, you know, just don't care and derive some simple pleasure from the fact that people are happy by improving their lives with the things science offers, like you know, not dying a gruesome death by the hands of some cruel disease or having to scavenge for food all day, or being torn apart by a wild predator...that kind of stuff

----think about why Nietzsche and Sartre were opposed to German anti-semitism...
Nietzsches relation with anti-semitism was a complex one and cannot readily be reduced to being opposed to it. It's sadly a bit more complicated and keep in mind that he went insane already as early as 1889 which was quiet a time before things...errr....got out of hand...

Short version: it's impossible to live happily and consistently as an atheist...
Pfffffffffff...bwwwwhahahahahhahahahhahaahahahahahahahahhahahaaha!

Reading serious threads in OT is sometimes so much fun.....
 

Yopaz

Sarcastic overlord
Jun 3, 2009
6,087
0
0
EclipseoftheDarkSun said:
Yopaz said:
Also moths don't evolve to change colour in response to the environment. There needs to be moths with the specific colour scheme (or moths with seasonal changes as a part of their genes). The moths that have the advantageous phenotype will grow in numbers due to natural selection.
Bzzt! Wrong. Evolution consists of natural variation in offspring coupled with natural selection for those that best fit the environment/interact with other organisms in that environment. What you just described *IS* evolution.

Variation in moths. Natural selection for those moths that best fit the environment who go on to have offspring that are more likely to be like their parents. The gene pool (of the species/pool of organisms) has thus shuffled. That's evolution.
Yes, what I described is evolution I never claimed it wasn't.

I merely claimed that this was wrong.
moths evolve to change color when air quality changes the color of the trees they rest on.
This is wrong because they don't evolve to change their colour. The colour is already present, but due to natural selection the phenotype will increase in that population. This is evolution, your way of putting it is wrong.
You put it in a way that made it seem like evolution has a purpose rather than using it as an explanation of why things are. That is in fact one of the biggest misconceptions in evolution.

You clearly don't know evolution as well as you think you do, yet you have the audacity to tell others they have no right to speak unless they read up on it... I'll leave it at that.
 

Trull

New member
Nov 12, 2010
190
0
0
check out dis opinion, yo.
I believe in god; and I believe one of the ways god exists is within energy. So, using this, the whole 'Gamma Ray Evolution' theory makes sense and supports both theories.

Otherwise, I could believe in the whole prometheus approach.
 

Quaxar

New member
Sep 21, 2009
3,947
0
0
BiscuitTrouser said:
WHOOO MED SCHOOL IN A MONTH :D
What kind of weird Med School starts in August? Are you sure you didn't enrol in a homeopath summer academy by accident?

Also, concerning your last post:
"if you take ancient earths atmosphere, add water and add electricity (lightning) you get DNA and amino acids forming"
Is there a Miller-Urey recreation I haven't heard of that produced actual DNA and not just amino acids? I know the Yanagawa experiment was quite successful with increased earth conditions but while one of my lectures mentioned (or just badly formatted the text possibly) proto-cells I am a bit confused. Especially since I can't really verify it without a source where I don't have to pay 30 quid for the paper.
So far I can only confirm that they had an impressive amount of several amino acids using the <url=http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01808270>Springer version's preview function and changing the number of the <url=http://link.springer.com/static-content/lookinside/362/art%253A10.1007%252FBF01808270/001.png>preview .png from 001 to anywhere between 002 and 010. You'd think a big company like Springer would not let you do that but good for me I guess.

even they I can only find several amino acids (although qute an impressive amount), although since it's apparently impossible


discrider said:
Suspicion turning to hope of confirmation. Seriously, some of these arguments are Hovind or Comfort level ignorance and I just can't believe in the time of Wikipedia anyone would still believe this crap about circular dating and "devolution".

discrider said:
We have the fossil record, but unless we're going to properly map out ancestry by pulling DNA from the bones (and thus voiding their supposed age), all we have are speculations based on similarities in bone structure backed up by guessed dates which are verified by the bones which are verified by the guessed dates.
DNA isn't magic, it's an organic compound susceptible to extreme temperatures and pH and in an environment full of microorganisms, as such it has an expiration date of around half a million years. That is why we have cells, because DNA needs a very precise environment to function.
And btw most fossils aren't bones any more, they are literally turned to stone, which makes it not easier to find DNA. And even then bones only really caught on with vertebrates, which are a mere 525 million years old, evolving during the Cambrian explosion. Most other bodily materials don't fossilize very well, which is why a lot of fossils are trace fossils, imprints of a dead creature or something left by them inside a material that later hardened, like mud or volcanic ash (for example the Footprints of Laetoli, <url=http://www.getty.edu/conservation/our_projects/field_projects/laetoli/images/laetoli3_2.jpg>exellently preserved 3.6mya old ash prints of an adult and a child Australopithecus afarensis <url=http://www.getty.edu/conservation/our_projects/field_projects/laetoli/images/laetoli1_2.jpg>walking on two legs side by side) or resin fossils (think of the mosquito from Jurassic Park).


discrider said:
It would also be nice if "macro-evolution" had a concrete starting point for life. But again, "macro-evolution" is untestable. So if we do find some way of kick-starting life naturally, even if in the most contrived and unlikely manner, "macro-evolution" will latch onto it as "proof", whereas there is no fail condition and never finding an appropriate starting point for life will just be down to lazy scientists.

So, yes Science is great. But Evolution is not science, as it does not inform us and thus cannot be disproven. Maybe when we have a collective data base of a million generations then we can look at this argument again and see whether the data shows trends of macro-evolution, but at the moment this just isn't possible.
I just have to ask you at this point... are you Kent Hovind?
 

BiscuitTrouser

Elite Member
May 19, 2008
2,859
0
41
Quaxar said:
[
What kind of weird Med School starts in August? Are you sure you didn't enrol in a homeopath summer academy by accident?

Also, concerning your last post:
"if you take ancient earths atmosphere, add water and add electricity (lightning) you get DNA and amino acids forming"
Is there a Miller-Urey recreation I haven't heard of that produced actual DNA and not just amino acids? I know the Yanagawa experiment was quite successful with increased earth conditions but while one of my lectures mentioned (or just badly formatted the text possibly) proto-cells I am a bit confused. Especially since I can't really verify it without a source where I don't have to pay 30 quid for the paper.
So far I can only confirm that they had an impressive amount of several amino acids using the <url=http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01808270>Springer version's preview function and changing the number of the <url=http://link.springer.com/static-content/lookinside/362/art%253A10.1007%252FBF01808270/001.png>preview .png from 001 to anywhere between 002 and 010. You'd think a big company like Springer would not let you do that but good for me I guess.
Ah crap two months :C Im way off base. Whoops!

I know that adenine can be produced in a hydrogen-cyanide/ammonia solution with a similar set up, so we definitely have nucleotide action. I THINK it was Joan Oro who did this. At least thats what my notes say. Heres the address ive linked in also in my notes (I love my notes). http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0003986161900339. Its also on pubmed, the ID is 13731263. I think i was stretching to say DNA but hell it technically counts.

I dont know about Cytosine, Guanine, Thymine and Uracil but the existence of adenine alone is definitely a good sign for discovering perhaps the natural pathways toward the other nucleotides. A few interesting hypotheses im reading about involve the use of a reduced amount of amino acids in the first proto cell with an expanding amount as time went on. This would mean that the amino acids we have found in the primordial soup experiments might give us an idea of the structure of the proto cell even though they are not identical to the amino acids life is dependent on today.

Im particularly interested in if we find that Uracil is easier or in fact possible to synthesize in an ancient earth environment. If it is and we find Thymine impossible/harder it may indicate the first proto cells only had RNA and DNA developed later. Which is an extremely interesting debate. Im fascinated by the make up of the first proto cell.
 

Ponyboy

New member
Jul 3, 2013
4
0
0
the water/ snow did not spontaneously develop. Energy was introduced(or is it removed in freezing?) to the H2O, then dissipated, returning to it's natural.
 

BiscuitTrouser

Elite Member
May 19, 2008
2,859
0
41
Ponyboy said:
the water/ snow did not spontaneously develop. Energy was introduced(or is it removed in freezing?) to the H2O, then dissipated, returning to it's natural.
But it shows energy in the system can be moved around to create a more ordered structure. For freezing energy is removed. An area had less energy in it for a time and it become more ordered. Then the energy is then reintroduced (Or if youre in the poles it never is at all!). It shows in our system islands of order can emerge. Why cant there be a larger one called "Life"? I agree EVENTUALLY it will end and entropy will cause a universal heat death but as long as the sun is alive and this system gains more energy than it loses its possible to make a more ordered form. Snow is an example of how the weather system, caused by the sun, allows for order to exist. It isnt ONLY entropy.

Also seriously, snow is cold. This means it has less energy. I seriously suggest you google this. Google it. So far your understanding seems a little.... poor. Of basic chemistry and physics. I studied entropy when i was 16 and its clear that its possible to have reactions that have less entropy than their original forms. However to do this you need energy input. This energy input is possible because the sun is giving us this extra energy.

http://biologos.org/questions/evolution-and-the-second-law

Simply put the second law of thermodynamics says that to create order in a system disorder needs to be created elsewhere. The disorder is in the sun, as a lot of concentrated energy dissipates. And the order is on earth. Where energy becomes more concentrated as the suns emissions add to our system. The fact is that as long as earth gains more energy than it loses it is becoming more ordered. This is because the average energy of space is very low and earth is a concentrated amount of energy in a single place. If earth was truly entropic it would lose energy over all as it would spread out from our planet. It does not.
 

Sindwiller

New member
Mar 15, 2008
32
0
0
Short version: it's impossible to live happily and consistently as an atheist
That's a gross oversimplification. Have you ever heard of Epicureanism? What about Buddhist belief devoid of godlike beings? You might want to read some Kant and Herman Hesse, as well (the former for the logical clarity as to why some form of morality makes a good social imperative, the latter for his "everyone has to figure stuff out for himself" approach to life).
 

Naleh

New member
May 25, 2010
94
0
0
Deathmageddon said:
Theistic Evolutionism: because there are practical issues with atheism (you can either delude yourself into thinking life has meaning and thus there's a point to scientific inquiry, or be a nihilist and spend the rest of your life contemplating suicide), time is relative, and why would God have removed any doubt of His existence by spoiling hundreds of years of research anyway? Giving Moses a simplified version of events makes a great test of faith, too.

Before I get replies from butthurt, "hail science" militant atheist types, think about why Nietzsche and Sartre were opposed to German anti-semitism, or why Richard Dawkins wrote his own Ten Commandments, all while preaching that morality, good and evil, don't exist and that people shouldn't act like they do.

Short version: it's impossible to live happily and consistently as an atheist, but evolution is fact. Therefore, theistic evolutionism is the best way to reconcile fact with truth.
:S

Not butthurt or intentionally militant, just confused. I'm living pretty happily and consistently as an atheist so far, and I genuinely don't understand your reasoning behind "practical issues". Could you elaborate?

I admit I've never really wrapped my head around this whole concept of the "meaning of life". Surely it doesn't refer to the meaning of the word life. Does it refer to purpose? But the purpose of anything is utterly defined by its user. At this very moment I've got a bit of plastic in my hands. Just a totally random piece of plastic. Don't know where it came from. But it's of great importance to me because it's my Fiddly Thing that I play with whenever I'm at my computer. It has a ton of purpose. Why would the same logic not apply to life? Why isn't the purpose of life what I choose it to be? How does magic come into this at all? And when it does, why doesn't it apply consistently ? why aren't you asking about the "meaning of God"?

Next question: Why does life need a purpose? Things exist, whether anyone's using them for a task or not. If my life lacked an externally-defined purpose, I'd still have that life, and I wouldn't suddenly turn suidical. That's not how suicide works. I have a functioning survival instinct, plus I happen to enjoy being alive (it lets me do cool stuff like science and video games and writing forum posts). I don't think about my life's meaning. It just doesn't worry me. I am alive.

"Time is relative" ? yes, it is. That happens to be one of the laws of the universe, like "opposite charges attract" and "gravity sucks". What's it got to do with any of this?

Still not sure why faith is a virtue.

I haven't really looked at Dawkins' writings (I don't much care for the bloke) but I'm pretty sure his point is that absolute, external morality doesn't exist. There is no conflict between that statement and the desire to write down a set of ethical principles. The laws of physics have no morality, but evolution has built morality into our neurology and our culture (along with many other intelligent animals) because it's advantageous. Morality without a God is as easy as doing what you feel is right anyway because you have a conscience already hardwired into your decision-making organ.

"? reconcile fact with truth" is a bizarre turn of phrase, since it's not a fact if it isn't truthful. (False things can certainly be called facts, but that's a lie or a mistake, not an erosion of the meaning of the word "fact".)
 

Quaxar

New member
Sep 21, 2009
3,947
0
0
BiscuitTrouser said:
Ah crap two months :C Im way off base. Whoops!
Aw. Would've been funnier if you found out you did in fact enrol in Homeopath Academy.
Although you could probably do it on the side. Because the less you learn the better grades you get!
... which is both a funny double-meaning and a sad truth.

BiscuitTrouser said:
I know that adenine can be produced in a hydrogen-cyanide/ammonia solution with a similar set up, so we definitely have nucleotide action. I THINK it was Joan Oro who did this. At least thats what my notes say. Heres the address ive linked in also in my notes (I love my notes). http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0003986161900339. Its also on pubmed, the ID is 13731263. I think i was stretching to say DNA but hell it technically counts.
Thanks, I'll have a look. Tomorrow when I've got my own medicine entrance exam behind me.

BiscuitTrouser said:
Im particularly interested in if we find that Uracil is easier or in fact possible to synthesize in an ancient earth environment. If it is and we find Thymine impossible/harder it may indicate the first proto cells only had RNA and DNA developed later. Which is an extremely interesting debate. Im fascinated by the make up of the first proto cell.
I'm not even aware that the RNA world hypothesis is particularly contested. After all, RNA is self-replicating, enzymaticly active and much more stable plus the existence of retroviruses and the fact that DNA has to be transcribed into RNA for most cell activities are pretty decisive factors as well.
Not saying there couldn't have been a pre-RNA system or we shouldn't do more in that field but I just can't imagine that not a clear majority of biologists subscribe to the RNA world already.