Poll: Dragon Age 2 'more welcoming'

[Yoh3333]

I love the new artstyle, i like how they kept the cutscenes more or less the same but added alittle bit more to it but that's about it...

As for combat and dialogue it's horrible compared to DA:O.
Combat has been stripped off of the just alittle strategic things like the ogre and anticipateing it's attacks based on the animation. I love the tactical part but in DA2 it has all been removed and you get a bloody hack and slash game on PC... It's horrible!
Even more horrible on console which it was blatantly made better for where you have to press X each single damn time for the simple auto-attack... scratch that because it's not "AUTO" attack anymore on consoles... that just makes it a straight up button masher

As for the dialogue wheel i like that they have given us a voice and that the voice acting is as espected from bioware, quite good. but WHY WHY WHY did they make it so that you have your 3 standard-responses each corresponding to Good/Neutral/Evil... They have made the same HUGE mistake as with ME2 and break immersion... (if they add a "Good/Evil" meter i am going to HATE bioware!)

It is heavily dumbed down, Combat is for consoles and when on consoles it's a button masher and as for dialogue it has become the blatant "IM EVIL! HAH!!!" whereas true immersion would come from the long (though tedious) choices you had in DA:O where the good and evil wasn't written out with Red for evil og Blue for good...

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't ruin the story aswell bioware... it's the only thing i'll buy the game for...

 

[Lord Krunk]

Haven't played the demo, but it sounds like this 'dumbing down' is actually making the game faster paced. Something the original direly needed.

I say bring it on.

It's dumbed down in the same way that a real time strategy is a dumbed down version of a turn based strategy. Everything you did before in combat is still there, it's just fancier and faster but the "Pure RPG" guys won't accept that it can happen so to them it's a Hack-and-slash because you can, you know, play it without big lags between switching targets and ranged/mages can use hand-to-hand until they can retreat so they can't be toppled in seconds.

See, I never got that. Since when was RPG a repetitive menu mash with invisible statistics governing everything you do, as these guys seem to think it is? I thought it was just a game that you role played in.

It's still an RPG, guys. Just because it doesn't fit your definition doesn't mean it isn't.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Ah but why such harsh words, let's just say casual, more action less tactics, the casual market will eat it up and it will be their new best seller, until ME3 which will be even casualer... not sure that's a word but you catch my drift.

They also seem to have added some odd JRPG elemets, the world isn't pre-built it's all just empty space until you reach a checkpoint then they randomly swarm you with enemies, feels extremely wooden and actually pretty stupid since they essentially went back 20 years in level design...
Character/animation style also seems to have some anime moves, all boobies went 10x, every female is now smoking hot(even Flemeth has become a spiky haired milf), all sorts of freaky non-practical weapons combined with lots of jumpy moves, and pretty much every skill has some sort of sparkly flashy animation to it.
And I can't quite put my finger on it but the conversations seem a bit JRPG-ish, lots of pointless remarks and lines that practically have no meaning, just pointing out the obvious, and they added some of that Japanese standoff growling.

Actually starting to wonder if BioWare outsourced this to some JRPG developer...

 

[Xaositect]

I think the mere fact that Bioware has to look for ways around just using the term dumbed down says it all.

Their games are dumbed down, and their PR speak does everything it can to hide that fact.

 

[Hyper-space]

Honestly, the that guy's comments read like "We want more players, so we toned down or cut out a lot of the RPG elements. But it is still a RPG!". Not really. You can't have it both ways Bioware. If you want to move a game away from being a pure RPG, then that is fine. Just don't lie to your fans about it. They did the same thing with ME2.

I still want to remain skeptical about Dragon Age 2, but I'm hearing so many bad things about the demo, it's starting to worry me.

Hopefully the retail game will be good, but from the first moment they announced the dialogue wheel in Dragon Age 2, I feared they will dumb down the game just like ME2 and it seems that's exactly what happened.

The console version will be more hack-n-slash, while the PC version retains the click-and-autofight, but i heard it supposed to be more fast-pace, something that the albeit fun and tactical gameplay of DA:O lacked sorely. Watching my characters lumber around and taking forever to get into positions was painful and not to mention a waste of my time.

 

[Nixzilla]

i find alot of things thay dragon age 2 has done is for the better[atleast as far as the demo goes]

 

[manythings]

Haven't played the demo, but it sounds like this 'dumbing down' is actually making the game faster paced. Something the original direly needed.

I say bring it on.

It's dumbed down in the same way that a real time strategy is a dumbed down version of a turn based strategy. Everything you did before in combat is still there, it's just fancier and faster but the "Pure RPG" guys won't accept that it can happen so to them it's a Hack-and-slash because you can, you know, play it without big lags between switching targets and ranged/mages can use hand-to-hand until they can retreat so they can't be toppled in seconds.

See, I never got that. Since when was RPG a repetitive menu mash with invisible statistics governing everything you do, as these guys seem to think it is? I thought it was just a game that you role played in.

It's still an RPG, guys. Just because it doesn't fit your definition doesn't mean it isn't.

Well the problem then is clearly with you since you don't believe exactly what they tell you you should believe. BioWare have done their best to extract anything that interferes with you actually playing the game. Some people love routing through 10 inventories, crafting pages and menus because it "adds depth" which i've come to interpret as "is the way it was before it was cool". It's just a version of the indie argument but in this case making the game playable is selling out to The Man.

Also I'd advise using Steam for the demo since the DA website doesn't seem to manage it as well. It's almost 2 Gigs keep in mind.

 

[Smokej]

Even Bioware has to adjust to the current market, so the gameplay is orientated in favour for the more unaspiring taste in entertainment... DA:O and ME were decent games but im still waiting for the spiritual successors, they promised to deliver, of the games they made a decade before.

Even though the story/setting is ok (DA:O) or even great (ME) gameplaywise they're lacking a lot of finesse and complexity and DA2 follows this trend. As it stands now DA2 is playing more like a Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance than the original BG. So everybody who is seeking some sophisticated gameplay/combat will be disappointed.

Fortunately there are some few gems from the indie scene and(eastern)european studios for those who are not giving up the hopes for a classic big budget RPG.

 

[gibboss28]

Combat feels faster - it's no less tactical.

pretty much this, the AI still is still thicker than a second coating of paint too. But at least they've sorted out the pathfinding...somewhat

Though to be honest I don't really like wheel of dialogue choices, I like to see the entire sentence the character is going to say, not just a snippet, but I'll take the bad with the good.

 

[fealubryne]

From a practical point of view, I understand why they made the changes they did. A lot of the complaints they had been getting were from the people who had expected a fantasy-flavored Mass Effect and that's really not what Dragon Age ended up being. It feels like they shifted the game more in that direction which also made it more friendly for consoles. They were trying to expand their playerbase, and for the most part it looks like they're going to succeed - most of the people that had issues with DA:O being "boring" or "slow" or whatever seem to absolutely adore the changes they've made. And hey, bottom line is make money. This will sell.

That said, I'm really disappointed. I can understand a few tweaks to the game to make it more console-friendly and more appealing to the crowd who enjoys running in and smashing everything to bits with flashy shiny moves. I only wish they hadn't revamped the game to the point where it doesn't even quite feel like a Dragon Age 2, but more like a completely different game with Dragon Age tacked on. There's a lot of things they've changed that I'm just not a fan of, and that they really didn't need to change at all, and yet they did. Not that anything can be done about it at this point, but... yeah.

In the end, I see WHY they did it. I just wish they hadn't.

 

[DarkhoIlow]

Combat looks quite dumbed down,but quite fun compared to DA:O.

Everything else looks great and we will just have to wait and see if it's gonna have the same/less/or more success as the first game.

 

[DracoSuave]

It is dumbed down. Its focused on hack and slashy combat, with less emphasis on tactics, strategy and statistics. 3 conversation options are now clearly marked for good/neutral/bad, in case you went full retard. There is fewer tactics slots available. Positional combat is non existant. And items are marked with stars now !

oh, and lets not forget the "anime" combat animations.

That's bullcrap.

Now, granted, I played both console versions of DA1, I cannot comment on the PC versions, I can say this:

1) The combat system is almost EXACTLY the same. The ONLY differences are a slightly faster pace, and there is an option to have each individual attack keyed with a button press. You can turn that off, and it will respond EXACTLY like DA1. Except less sluggish. Tactics are exactly the same. The skill wheel is exactly the same. That's not dumbed down, that's THE SAME.

2) How can it be more 'hacky slashy' if it deemphasizes weapon damage (you do a lot less damage per swing) and instead focuses on the abilities you use and when? Mages are still using Mind Blast and Cone of Cold to control enemies. Rogues are actually able to toss out stun bombs, as opposed to just backstabbing until there's a trap to disarm. I'm sorry you don't need to use the stuns as much at level 1 like you did in Dragon Age at level 20. And again, there's the same number of tactics slots as you got before. The method you use to get more is not in the demo.

3) Conversation options are not 'Good/Neutral/Bad.' They're marked for the general intent towards that individual character. There IS no Good/Neutral/Bad, or if you like Paragon/Renegade. In most of the conversations, there was 'Friendly' 'Comedic' 'Rival'. But there were other icons as well, certainly more than three. It's certainly an improvement over 'Here's five conversation options, but only one of them actually matters in any way shape or form.' that most DA conversations consisted of.

Let's be honest, most conversations in DA with your cohorts consisted of you trying to do whatever they approved of, avoid what they disapproved of, then hand them gifts to cover up whatever they didn't like during the actual game play itself. Morrigan might be a bitter *****, but at least you can make her happy with shineys. DA2 instead has a Friend/Rival system, where making them like you is good, but making them dislike you is ALSO good.

This isn't dumbed down, this is assigning importance onto conversations and making real meaningful choice possible. This is one of those things Alpha Protocol got absolutely right, and I'm DAMN glad to see more of it in other games.

4) Positional combat is not non-existant in any game with AoEs and backstabs. DA2 has AoEs and Backstabs. Try again.

5) Items were marked with twinkly bits before. Whatever.

6) "Anime" combat animations? You mean like where your rogue would leap into the air onto the ogres back, stab it in the eyes, lean forward and give it a chelsea smile?

Oh wait, that was what happened in DA1. What exactly are you talking about?

 

[LJJ]

Yay!

I guess all the mathletes are mad now, but I like my story driven games on the easy side.

 

[spartan231490]

...says Lead Designer Mike Laidlaw. http://bit.ly/eKRRSv

Or is that dumbed down? Not played the demo myself yet but the more I read about Dragon Age 2 the more I worry it's going to be a hack and slash style of occasion.

Have you played it? Is it 'more welcoming'? Or do you it has just been dumbed down?

I don't know about welcoming, but i had a blast playing the demo, short as it is. The new talents are really cool imo, although I do dislike the fact that there seem to be less talents overall.

 

[Assassin Xaero]

I played the demo yesterday, or some of it at least. To me, it is the same, boring excuse for combat (and by combat I mean "click on enemy, wait for enemy to die, click on next enemy") that the first had, only sped up. While fighting the Ogre, I actually started texting my friend and I was doing just as well in the game while texting as I was when I was actually paying attention to what was going on. So, yep, money saved.

 

[Klepa]

The demo is dumbed down. Am I the only one bothered by the move from realism? In DA, people moved like normal people. In the demo as a rogue, you are flipping and moving inhumanly fast. Yes, they made the game hack n' slash friendly. Honestly, the guy's comments read like "We want more players, so we toned down or cut out a lot of the RPG elements. But it is still a RPG!". Not really. You can't have it both ways Bioware. If you want to move a game away from being a pure RPG, then that is fine. Just don't lie to your fans about it. They did the same thing with ME2.

I agree on the animations. I liked the first one how the movement was kind of gritty, the crown jewel for me being the dragon killing animation. Your character jumps on it's back, stabs it in the face, and when the dragon falls down, your character doesn't mysteriously backflip off of it, he lands on his ass.

When I played the DA2 demo, it looked more like an anime. A mage shooting her staff looks like a fast forward yoga practice. The melee animations are also quite flashy, with characters jumping 10 feet in the air, performing normal auto attacks that could probably land them a place at the next olympics. I could almost hear the characters shouting "WHIRLWIND ATTACK!" when I pressed the action buttons.

 

[WelshDanny]

It is dumbed down. Its focused on hack and slashy combat, with less emphasis on tactics, strategy and statistics. 3 conversation options are now clearly marked for good/neutral/bad, in case you went full retard. There is fewer tactics slots available. Positional combat is non existant. And items are marked with stars now !

oh, and lets not forget the "anime" combat animations.

That's bullcrap.

Now, granted, I played both console versions of DA1, I cannot comment on the PC versions, I can say this:

1) The combat system is almost EXACTLY the same. The ONLY differences are a slightly faster pace, and there is an option to have each individual attack keyed with a button press. You can turn that off, and it will respond EXACTLY like DA1. Except less sluggish. Tactics are exactly the same. The skill wheel is exactly the same. That's not dumbed down, that's THE SAME.

2) How can it be more 'hacky slashy' if it deemphasizes weapon damage (you do a lot less damage per swing) and instead focuses on the abilities you use and when? Mages are still using Mind Blast and Cone of Cold to control enemies. Rogues are actually able to toss out stun bombs, as opposed to just backstabbing until there's a trap to disarm. I'm sorry you don't need to use the stuns as much at level 1 like you did in Dragon Age at level 20. And again, there's the same number of tactics slots as you got before. The method you use to get more is not in the demo.

3) Conversation options are not 'Good/Neutral/Bad.' They're marked for the general intent towards that individual character. There IS no Good/Neutral/Bad, or if you like Paragon/Renegade. In most of the conversations, there was 'Friendly' 'Comedic' 'Rival'. But there were other icons as well, certainly more than three. It's certainly an improvement over 'Here's five conversation options, but only one of them actually matters in any way shape or form.' that most DA conversations consisted of.

Let's be honest, most conversations in DA with your cohorts consisted of you trying to do whatever they approved of, avoid what they disapproved of, then hand them gifts to cover up whatever they didn't like during the actual game play itself. Morrigan might be a bitter *****, but at least you can make her happy with shineys. DA2 instead has a Friend/Rival system, where making them like you is good, but making them dislike you is ALSO good.

This isn't dumbed down, this is assigning importance onto conversations and making real meaningful choice possible. This is one of those things Alpha Protocol got absolutely right, and I'm DAMN glad to see more of it in other games.

4) Positional combat is not non-existant in any game with AoEs and backstabs. DA2 has AoEs and Backstabs. Try again.

5) Items were marked with twinkly bits before. Whatever.

6) "Anime" combat animations? You mean like where your rogue would leap into the air onto the ogres back, stab it in the eyes, lean forward and give it a chelsea smile?

Oh wait, that was what happened in DA1. What exactly are you talking about?

Cracking post sir.

*makes note to download the demo at some point*

 

[DracoSuave]

The demo is dumbed down. Am I the only one bothered by the move from realism? In DA, people moved like normal people. In the demo as a rogue, you are flipping and moving inhumanly fast. Yes, they made the game hack n' slash friendly. Honestly, the guy's comments read like "We want more players, so we toned down or cut out a lot of the RPG elements. But it is still a RPG!". Not really. You can't have it both ways Bioware. If you want to move a game away from being a pure RPG, then that is fine. Just don't lie to your fans about it. They did the same thing with ME2.

Bullocks.

DA has always been a real-time combat game. If you don't like the hack-and-slash, turn off the 'hit x for each attack' button and pause the game every five seconds to make yourself feel more involved. This is no different than the options you had in DA1, except your character actually -reacts- to what you do with a sense of urgency. That's not 'less RPG.' RPG means Role Playing Game, not Your Slow Ass Needs To Run Faster. The letters are different you see.

As for the number-crunchers, can you say with any actual honesty what a point of strength did for you in DA1? A point of dexterity? A point of cunning? No, you can't, because the game system only told you 'more is better' and kept a lot of the mechanics hidden behind a wall.

In DA2, it's pretty much front and center.

Strength affects your physical melee damage if you're a warrior, oh, and your physical resistance is based on it on a point-to-point basis. Every stat has sitting right beside it, a second stat that is directly derived from it. Don't know what your chance to crit is? Hey look, there it is, and if you increase the stat it goes with, it increases immediately! Oh hey, you can see how much magic points willpower gives you, directly!

Yeah, the game even shows it's math for you. Cause guessing at an arcane calculation is better rpg gameplay I guess? Making informed decisions is 'dumbed down?' Wrong. It's 'smartened up.' If you know the repercussions of your decisions when you make your character, it makes your decisions meaningful. You KNOW what you need to do to get more critical hits and damage, if you like that style of combat. You KNOW what you need to do if you want to use more abilities without running out.

Also, potions have a cooldown, so your health and mana and stamina levels actually matter, you simply do not have an inexaustible supply.


Lastly, no one can comment on how inventory works in DA2, because that's disabled in the demo. It's a demo. That sort of thing you should be used to by now.

 

[joshthor]

the artstyle is fantastic, animations are better, combat is more welcoming (not easier imo, that ogre was a ***** to take down with a rogue), combat is cooler, faster paced, and more fun. i love most of the changes.

i dont like the camera though.

 

[DracoSuave]

So i read the interview, and this is my take on it.

The guy said the game has a tutorial level. That it starts by teaching you how combat works, then lets you start your character build with an idea of how the game plays, then builds on that by adding in elements over time.

Which the demo did, because the demo was just the tutorial levels.

That's not 'dumbed down.' That's accepting there's a learning curve for new players, and letting them learn the game before they tackle the mechanics. By the time they're hooked, they're juggling stats like the rest of us.

RPGs SHOULD be doing that more. There's nothing worse than an RPG that starts off assuming you already know the mechanics and system and how to min-max it. That's terrible design for any game, and especially RPGs. Imagine that moment in Oblivion when you realize that using your primary skills could actually level the enemies faster than if you had a character concentrate on levelling secondary skills at a slower pace with primary skills that you could safely ignore? The game never tells you this. That moment of discovery wasn't a eureka. That was a 'OH GOD DAMN IT THIS IS BONEHEADED.'

The RPG genre often has the most complex mechanics in gaming, does everything it can to obscure those mechanics from the player, while absolutely requiring the player master mechanics it is constantly trying to deny them access to. That's not 'intellegent' game design.

Instead, you have a game here which says 'This is a tutorial level, which teaches you why you need these stats, and here's a screen that explains exactly what those stats do. Now create your character as you see fit' which allows you to avoid making mistakes like having too many abilities that increase your attack stat, when your attack stat is already so high you can never miss. How high is too high? Dunno, Dragon Age never told you. DA2 does.

Transperency is NOT dumbing down. Teaching the mechanics is NOT dumbing down. It's making a game that can get very complex more able to be digested by others so that more people will be able to access its complexity.

At the end... this is good for RPGs, taking it out of the 'niche' market and putting it into the common hands. i don't know why anyone would oppose this, it would mean more money is available in making RPGs, which would mean more investment in high quality RPG experiences.

That is a good thing, ladies and gentlemen, and those who for some crufty reason don't want RPGs to be accessible to more people? You're the reason we can't have nice things. Take your neckbeard and go back to your basement with your d30s you grognard.