Poll: Dubstep. Music or not music?

[CleverCover]

Yeah it's music. It can be a wonderful medium of sounds and a horrible medium of sounds. It's just what the person does with it.

 

[Grant Hobba]

It's relevant because if you don't understand the concepts of musical theory then you clearly have no validity to argue musical concepts...

I don't argue with my girlfriend over psychology and the spectrum in which peoples character traits fall into because I have no real understanding of the subject matter,

Point is if you don't know the text books aren't ancient the topics aren't and my lecturers would know more than you, I get it, you like art for the sake of art, but tell me how would you actually draft a manuscript of some dubstep, how about F - one - swagger by Bar 9, ?

once you do that you can call it music.

In fact give me a full aural analysis of how the composer created the use pitch to create interest in the piece ?

that's a really easy question too!

Nope! I'm done arguing with this brick wall. I learned all the theory I need to know in my few classical guitar classes and it helps me with my music. If you want to continue being stubborn and walking around with your dick out go ahead! Like I said, have fun with your useless degree!

I just hear "Oh sorry I can't because I don't know how to because I am all talk"

yup.... you wanted a real argument, I give you one and now you can't come back with a legitimate point?

very poor,

okay and easy one, list the ecpressive techniques used in the excerpt - no easy way out - survivor

 

[Vault101]

oh boy! I get to go on the merry-go-round again!

No I just stopped caring about how wrong you are,

this single mindedness seems to be the root of our problem

[quote/]The work I was quoting is Literacy works Musical Aural concepts,[/quote]
I'll repeat myself, I'm not questioning the validity of your textbook..but your inhability to explain beyond that


[quote/]The reason western music is the way it is and should stay like it is, simply because you can't measure dance in the old European defined terminology,[/quote]
uhhhh....so what?

things change....society changes...new things become.."things"...like websties are now "things"


[quote/]while in aural analysis you can actually define synths as performing media they are not defined within the category of musical instruments, because that is not what they are.[/quote]
ever consider the cataogry might be outdated?...just a thourght


[quote/]For example, in Rusko's song cockney thug, there is 3 layers, vocals synth and beat. I would love the see how someone is to write that up on a stave ? , to see what key it's in because if you can't write it, it's not really ever going to be music?[/quote]
ummm...why the fuck would you need too? it is as it is


[quote/]as for the other post.. that was merely to vent, to be perfectly honest I do not actually care and I didn't think you would spend the time you did trying to embarrass me on it... it's a little sad.[/quote]
of coarse you don't care...youve proved time and time again how little you care /sarcasm

theres this quote from the dark knight..near the end..where the joker says "you won't kill me because of some misplaced sense of self rightousness..and I wont kill you because...*snrrk* well your just too much fun"

and really...you are too much fun


[quote/]any how, the whole don't say that, you'll get banned... again I don't really care.[/quote]

forums can be fun if you don't continuously antagonise people...but whatever, have it your way

[quote/]Music has to have strict rules and guidelines or there are no boundaries, and with no boundaries it becomes anarchy, I am open to progression, but progression can't be acheived by ignoring what makes music.. music.[/quote]

are you like....doing this on purpose?

again it doenst seem to be getting through to you...I AM NOT talking the rules in regards to music..I am now question your absolute blind devotion to the fact that it eather has to be percussion, wind or strings...and nothing else

again...I'd aprecate if you check out that point I made with he NES song "bloody tears"

[quote/]for example, bjork, I am not 100% familiar with her work, but she is a lot more progressive than dubstep and dance / electronica will ever be,[/quote]
I never implied those genres to be the bastions of "progressive" I merely implied thry are music and deserve merit where merit is due

[quote/]there is not skill required to create it,[/quote]
if that were true then there would be noo good stuff at all

[quote/]only timing and that doesn't keep in with time signatures, although you can play syncopated with accents on off beats and play really weird time signatures, it just reeks of (I have no talent and therefore I make really loud bass noises by bending distorted bass tones....[/quote]

I did say before that I find alot of dubstep crappy/boring and formulatic

[quote/]believe it or not I actually listen to some pretty big mixes of music and in fact a perfect example of that is little green men by steve vai.... or how about Andrea Botticelli's works.... even so far as old school hip hop like Dre's stuff from back in the day.[/quote]
arent hip hops beats purely "electronic" or they were made artificially most of the tme

 

[DugMachine]

I just hear "Oh sorry I can't because I don't know how to because I am all talk"

yup.... you wanted a real argument, I give you one and now you can't come back with a legitimate point?

very poor,

okay and easy one, list the ecpressive techniques used in the excerpt - no easy way out - survivor

No, I just won't argue with someone who went WAY offtopic and is throwing around theory that normal people don't know. Why the fuck would anyone know about advanced theory for shits and giggles and why am I going to argue about theory (if I could) when this is a topic based solely on opinion and music which like any other art form is completely up to the listener?

That wasn't a 'real argument' that was you just wanking over your field and being confident in the fact that a majority of people can't retort with theory . I'll let someone else with the knowledge do the theory arguing with you. So keep wanking away! Nobody is on your side here.

 

[Grant Hobba]

It's relevant because if you don't understand the concepts of musical theory then you clearly have no validity to argue musical concepts...

I don't argue with my girlfriend over psychology and the spectrum in which peoples character traits fall into because I have no real understanding of the subject matter,

Point is if you don't know the text books aren't ancient the topics aren't and my lecturers would know more than you, I get it, you like art for the sake of art, but tell me how would you actually draft a manuscript of some dubstep, how about F - one - swagger by Bar 9, ?

once you do that you can call it music.

In fact give me a full aural analysis of how the composer created the use pitch to create interest in the piece ?

that's a really easy question too!

Nope! I'm done arguing with this brick wall. I learned all the theory I need to know in my few classical guitar classes and it helps me with my music. If you want to continue being stubborn and walking around with your dick out go ahead! Like I said, have fun with your useless degree!

I just hear "Oh sorry I can't because I don't know how to because I am all talk"

yup.... you wanted a real argument, I give you one and now you can't come back with a legitimate point?

very poor,

okay and easy one, list the ecpressive techniques used in the excerpt - no easy way out - survivor

Here we go

"For example, in Rusko's song cockney thug, there is 3 layers, vocals synth and beat. I would love the see how someone is to write that up on a stave ? , to see what key it's in because if you can't write it, it's not really ever going to be music?

ummm...why the fuck would you need too? it is as it is"


Because music has to be able to be written, notes are values that are to be written on a page for others to learn much like learning to spell .... or learning mathematics, saying "why would we need to" shows my point exactly.

why do we bother reading then... why do we bother playing basketball I can do that on my xbox..

Point is, music is as much theory and written as it is practical and your lack of understanding is why it will never be regarded are a legitimate genre of music.

as for the concepts, no they aren't out dated... if it is then music is outdated, why if the concepts are outdated, why were they created?

please answer that? I am curious as to you understanding of why music doesn't have to have a score ?

why doesn't a peice of music have to have performing media?

why doesn't it have to have a time signature, be in a key?

why doesn't it need a long glossary of words to define different things that happen for example A passage or movement in an allegro tempo. why do we need to call a tempo? why does it need to be classed as fast or slow ? why do we need x bpm to classify it as the aforementioned fast or slow ?

this is why musical theory is not outdated and why people need to learn it... understanding is key to creating.

and the fact you don't believe it should be written up shows a very large lack of understanding.

 

[SirDerick]

-snip-

I love how 1. you quoted yourself and 2, Trilligan destroyed your argument before you even posted it.

 

[UFOROMANTIC]

if you can't write it, it's not really ever going to be music

This is why you are not really ever going to be a musician. Because you have missed the point of music entirely.

You have conflated tools with purpose, jargon with meaningful expression. You have no idea why art is actually important. You are the very definition of backwards-thinking.

I will posit this: if you cannot translate a piece of electronic music into traditional sheet music notation, it is because the notation is lacking, not the music. The technical language must be updated to meet the needs of the artistic expression. To do it your way is to stifle artistic expression to meet the needs of antiquated technical language, and that is utterly moronic.

Spoiler: And if you tell me this isn't music because it was composed on snyths

then frankly you have no idea what you're talking about.

And you're still rude and obnoxious.

Trilligan, don't take this the wrong way, but I love you.

Hobba the Grant, you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Music exists outside of your narrow definitions, and if you insist on sticking to your petty pedagogy, then all that's going to happen is the music world is going to move on without you.
Music had been around for longer than you have been and longer than you ever will be, and western music modalities certainly don't need to have you champion them. Have fun in Theory Land with your metalcore, you joyless, knock-kneed bookworm.

 

[SirDerick]

Because music has to be able to be written, notes are values that are to be written on a page for others to learn

You... seriously think... that dubstep cannot be taught...

You did it. You found a way to physically assault someone over the internet. They key ingredient is stupid. Massive amounts of stupid.

 

[Vault101]

Because music has to be able to be written, notes are values that are to be written on a page for others to learn much like learning to spell .... or learning mathematics, saying "why would we need to" shows my point exactly.

there as to be ways of recording (in written or visua; form) what makes up a song even if it is electronic, I mean come on

[quote/]why do we bother reading then... why do we bother playing basketball I can do that on my xbox..[/quote]

metaphor is waaaaay off

[quote/]Point is, music is as much theory and written as it is practical and your lack of understanding is why it will never be regarded are a legitimate genre of music.[/quote]
it already is...its just you and people like you..

[quote/]as for the concepts, no they aren't out dated... if it is then music is outdated, why if the concepts are outdated, why were they created?[/quote]

there you go again....you MUST be doing that on purpose...the concepts are not out-dates

its those three words..."strings, percussion,wind" <-those three words is all

[quote/]please answer that? I am curious as to you understanding of why music doesn't have to have a score ?[/quote]
didn;t say that

[quote/]why doesn't a peice of music have to have performing media?[/quote]
didn't say that

[quote/]why doesn't it have to have a time signature, be in a key?[/quote]
didn;t say that

[quote/]why doesn't it need a long glossary of words to define different things that happen for example A passage or movement in an allegro tempo. why do we need to call a tempo? why does it need to be classed as fast or slow ? why do we need x bpm to classify it as the aforementioned fast or slow ?[/quote]

didn't say that

[quote/]this is why musical theory is not outdated and why people need to learn it... understanding is key to creating.[/quote]

didn;t say that...I did not say musical theory was outdated or not need or ANYTHING, honestly I may choke to death on all thease words your shoving into my mouth

[quote/]and the fact you don't believe it should be written up shows a very large lack of understanding.[/quote]

yeeeeeeep...thats exactly what I ment oh wait...it isnt

 

[DugMachine]

You know Grant Hoppa, for someone with a two year old account and only 100-200 posts I have a feeling you only ever jump in to threads that pertain to music, you seem like the type. Could be wrong but it's a pretty safe assumption and something tells me i'm right.

 

[Vault101]

You know Grant Hoppa, for someone with a two year old account and only 100-200 posts I have a feeling you only ever jump in to threads that pertain to music, you seem like the type. Could be wrong but it's a pretty safe assumption and something tells me i'm right.

we need to get Miracleofsound in here...he'll sort him out

 

[Vault101]

You... seriously think... that dubstep cannot be taught...

You did it. You found a way to physically assault someone over the internet. They key ingredient is stupid. Massive amounts of stupid.

you know....for some strange reason it is as if I feed off his madness

 

[DugMachine]

You know Grant Hoppa, for someone with a two year old account and only 100-200 posts I have a feeling you only ever jump in to threads that pertain to music, you seem like the type. Could be wrong but it's a pretty safe assumption and something tells me i'm right.

weneed to get Miracleofsound in here...he'll sort him out

Ah now that i'd love to see! Would probably be just as stubborn even then -_-

 

[Neksar]

Here we go

"For example, in Rusko's song cockney thug, there is 3 layers, vocals synth and beat. I would love the see how someone is to write that up on a stave ? , to see what key it's in because if you can't write it, it's not really ever going to be music?

ummm...why the fuck would you need too? it is as it is"


Because music has to be able to be written, notes are values that are to be written on a page for others to learn much like learning to spell .... or learning mathematics, saying "why would we need to" shows my point exactly.

why do we bother reading then... why do we bother playing basketball I can do that on my xbox..

Point is, music is as much theory and written as it is practical and your lack of understanding is why it will never be regarded are a legitimate genre of music.

as for the concepts, no they aren't out dated... if it is then music is outdated, why if the concepts are outdated, why were they created?

please answer that? I am curious as to you understanding of why music doesn't have to have a score ?

why doesn't a peice of music have to have performing media?

why doesn't it have to have a time signature, be in a key?

why doesn't it need a long glossary of words to define different things that happen for example A passage or movement in an allegro tempo. why do we need to call a tempo? why does it need to be classed as fast or slow ? why do we need x bpm to classify it as the aforementioned fast or slow ?

this is why musical theory is not outdated and why people need to learn it... understanding is key to creating.

and the fact you don't believe it should be written up shows a very large lack of understanding.

The fact that you believe that modern notation needs to stay static and that because it is incapable of adequately representing modern musical instrumentation shows a very large lack of understanding on your part.

Let's try an example. Call music a science, and compare it to something like chemistry. There are multiple ways of representing atoms and molecules, because a single unified representation doesn't adequately capture every aspect of what needs to be conveyed. In the same way, musical notation is itself inadequate if it can't be used to represent musical innovation. It sounds like I'm talking in circles by saying that dubstep or electronic music is music already, but consider this:

A synthesizer is to a piano what an electric guitar is to an acoustic guitar.

Both a synthesizer and an electric guitar serve the purpose of reading input that an acoustic instrument typically makes, and producing output that modifies that input electronically. A synthesizer does it more, but there are some crazy things that can be done with electric guitars. I've seen tools that make them sound like violins, for example.

If we followed your definition, Children of Bodom would not be music, because they use synthesizers and distorted guitars. I include distorted guitars in the list because it would follow that an electric guitar should not be considered an instrument, because it can't properly produce its music without the necessary hookups.

I swear, your book must have a misprint. It sounds like it should read "acoustic" music, because what you're describing is a subset of the art of music.

EDIT: Just reread some of that quote, and I have to add on some more stuff regarding the "why doesn't it have" portion:

Dubstep has an electronic score.

It does have a key.

It does have performing media, especially if it is produced using a piano keyboard, which much of electronic music is; however, you have to remember that music is still music if it can't be reproduced live, unless you want to make a caveat for looping devices. Case in point:
[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYvuxs5FbMg&list=UU1hkAIJnb2CSmm7SPJaPR-A&index=10&feature=plcp[/link]

As for why it doesn't have a long glossary of words: I think you are misunderstanding the very purpose of words themselves. It is not words that give something meaning. It is an idea that gives meaning and substance to words. In the same way that you have mistaken the use of music theory as a means of producing and conveying musical ideas, you have mistaken the meaning of language itself as a tool to convey ideas.

If there aren't words for something, it is because it is new and not fully understood yet, or perhaps its understanding is epistemically impossible. I am reminded of the Japanese word "yugen": an awareness of the universe that triggers emotional responses too deep and mysterious for words.

Do not mistake lack of understanding for lack of substance, unless you plan on assuming much of the universe isn't real either.

 

[Vault101]

Ah now that i'd love to see! Would probably be just as stubborn even then -_-

actually TBH I wouldn't want to expose him to this maddness

he doesnt deserve it

 

[Grant Hobba]

Because music has to be able to be written, notes are values that are to be written on a page for others to learn much like learning to spell .... or learning mathematics, saying "why would we need to" shows my point exactly.

there as to be ways of recording (in written or visua; form) what makes up a song even if it is electronic, I mean come on

[quote/]why do we bother reading then... why do we bother playing basketball I can do that on my xbox..

metaphor is waaaaay off

[quote/]Point is, music is as much theory and written as it is practical and your lack of understanding is why it will never be regarded are a legitimate genre of music.[/quote]
it already is...its just you and people like you..

[quote/]as for the concepts, no they aren't out dated... if it is then music is outdated, why if the concepts are outdated, why were they created?[/quote]

there you go again....you MUST be doing that on purpose...the concepts are not out-dates

its those three words..."strings, percussion,wind" <-those three words is all

[quote/]please answer that? I am curious as to you understanding of why music doesn't have to have a score ?[/quote]
didn;t say that

[quote/]why doesn't a peice of music have to have performing media?[/quote]
didn't say that

[quote/]why doesn't it have to have a time signature, be in a key?[/quote]
didn;t say that

[quote/]why doesn't it need a long glossary of words to define different things that happen for example A passage or movement in an allegro tempo. why do we need to call a tempo? why does it need to be classed as fast or slow ? why do we need x bpm to classify it as the aforementioned fast or slow ?[/quote]

didn't say that

[quote/]this is why musical theory is not outdated and why people need to learn it... understanding is key to creating.[/quote]

didn;t say that...I did not say musical theory was outdated or not need or ANYTHING, honestly I may choke to death on all thease words your shoving into my mouth

[quote/]and the fact you don't believe it should be written up shows a very large lack of understanding.[/quote]

yeeeeeeep...thats exactly what I ment oh wait...it isnt[/quote]

You did say music doesn't need to be written, here let me quote you

"For example, in Rusko's song cockney thug, there is 3 layers, vocals synth and beat. I would love the see how someone is to write that up on a stave ? , to see what key it's in because if you can't write it, it's not really ever going to be music?

ummm...why the fuck would you need too? it is as it is" there you go you did say it does not need to have a score....

 

[Maccaveli]

I never post on this forum, but when I saw this thread on the side of Zero Punctuation I just had to chime in. It seems most people here have an extremely limited view of dubstep, and it's not your fault, cos the stuff that gets shoved down your throats is mostly terrible. Here's some examples of how I really don't think it can be argued that dubstep isn't music.

If you're used to hearing that screechy, noisy Skrillex/Doctor P bullshit then I can understand you'd be skeptical, but trust me, those are awful examples of dubstep. Some people wouldn't even call them dubstep. If you love music give these a go, you might be surprised

Here's some beautiful melodic dubstep by Phaeleh (not a wobble in sight):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKltu3tzO1w

Here's some dubstep by Mala, one of the early pioneers of the genre, with complex Cuban percussion rhythms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vDiPQtkVI8

Here's a musically complex, atmospheric Author tune with some beautiful brass instrumentation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F08gHvlgQoc

And here's some jazzy dubstep being played by a full band called Submotion Orchestra:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMmqgBvNdVQ

Dubstep isn't music? Get the entire fuck out of here.

(seriously Grant Hobba, I challenge you to listen to these and tell me with a straight face that none of it is music)