Poll: Elizabeth or Alyx Vance?

[Ryotknife]

Who do I like more? Well that is an easy answer, Alyx.

Don't get me wrong, Elizabeth is a great character, but I kinda hated her. spoilers incometh

Spoiler

First, she starts fake crying to get me to lower my guard, then beats me in the freakin face with a wrench, and then leaves me to a bunch of fanatical rebels. So thanks for that. I would be PISSED if that happens to me. And yet booker is calm and forgiving. Strike one.

Strike two, she gets all high and mighty on her little soapbox, and yet she is responsible for just as much genocide (and more if we take into account future her). And no, future her had a choice.

Strike three, the moment I stop the experiments in commstock house, her first response is to summon an effing tornado on me. Screw you Elizabeth.

Strike four, she drowns Songbird after she begs him to save them and Songbird risks itself to protect her. That is pretty cold hearted, no matter how you slice it.

Strike five, she drowns Booker who sacrifices life and limb to help and protect her. Noticing a theme here, get close to Elizabeth and she drowns your ass.

Overall, Elizabeth is a backstabbing, spoiled, selfish B$%^&. Great character, funny, personable, but also a horrible human being.

Spoiler

1. You know, she did that for a reason? Booker lied to her about leaving Columbia to Paris, instead flying to New York so he could "wipe away his debt"

2. I think I remember her mumbling to herself how she has "caused all this" and how she didn't mean to do any of it, though I might be wrong. I don't think she never denied her part in many things.

3. She did that because she misunderstood Booker's words. Booker said he wouldn't allow her to kill Comstock, but later added that he's going to do it himself. At least that's how I remember how it happened.

4. Booker and Liz lost control of Songbird, it would've most likely killed Booker if Liz didn't do anything. That said, it was a pretty cruel way of handling it.

5. Booker himself allowed all the Elizabeths to drown him, since it was the only way to fix things.

Spoiler

1. a wrench to the face for a white lie is pretty drastic. And then she left him to die at the hands of the rebels (who nearly killed him when they punted him off the airship and he fell about 100 feet and landed on the hard ground). ESPECIALLY since she toyed with his feelings to get him to lower his guard.

2. and yet she was a lot harder on Booker than she ever was on herself despite her actions being in a lot of ways worse than Bookers.

3. I don't care. If someone was Falco punched by Songbird, sent flying into a building 500 feet away, fought his way through the guards, shut down the machines that were torturing her, and then gently tried to bring her back to her feet and in control I would not summon an effing tornado on him as my first reaction, kinda rude.

4. I don't like how she toyed with Songbird's feelings, using his/its love for her to manipulate it to doing her bidding. And when she was done she killed him. Toying with people's feelings is a personal agro button for me.

5. Uh, I don't think he "allowed" them. It was three vs one, and they drowned him the moment he realized he was Comstock. He didn't even have time to process the information or change his mind or talk to her or anything. Yes, it was he who recommended smothering Comstock in the crib, but that was before he knew about their connection. He didn't have all of the information. Now, maybe he would have allowed Elizabeths to kill him after he processed the information since he does have quite a bit of guilt inside, but we will never know because they murdered him before he could give consent.

Either way, the relationship between Booker and Elizabeth is pretty one-sided. It is an extremely abusive relationship both physically and mentally, especially towards the last 25% of the game. Her transgressions are basically forgiven on the spot whereas she puts the screws on Bookers transgressions and uses it to manipulate him.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the relationship for...most of the game. But afterwhile enough is enough. Hell, Booker even says that he is afraid of her.

 

[dagens24]

The reason I went Alyx is that she has NOTHING but positive encouragement and positive things to say. She always made me feel badass and brilliant for the simplest things.

 

[Innegativeion]

*snip*

I'm'na take a WILD guess and say you have not played Bioshock Infinite all the through.

In so many words: nothing you said is really true of Elizabeth at all.

There are MAJOR spoiler reasons why her being in that tower is not like the damsel in distress trope at all, but here's some non-spoiler information to help with your other points;

-Booker has a military background, Liz has never held a gun

-Liz has powers that become extremely useful in and out of combat

-She'll save your life often by finding all sorts of essential supplies

-She is essential to Booker's character arc, not just supplementary to it

Here's some spoilery ones;

Spoiler: PLAY BIOSHOCK INFINITE. DO NOT PICK NUMBER 77. DON'T CLICK SPOILERS.

-The man coming to "rescue" her is the same one to imprison her, and also happens to be her father. No sexual objectification here.

-Booker needs Elizabeth more than she needs him, as she gives Booker his final redemption

-Elizabeth kills one of the game's more prominent antagonists on her own

-Elizabeth obtains godlike power by the end of the game

-Elizabeth kills the "dragon" songbird on her own, with ABSOLUTELY no help from Booker at all

 

[cojo965]

This question probably wouldn't be so one-sided in its answer if Alyx and Elizabeth had both been introduced around the same time. As it is, people are still coming off of the BioShock Infinite high and have a fresher version of Elizabeth in their minds than they do Alyx. Just a theory though.

I feel your theory is half right. I think the voting is so "one-sided" for two reasons.

One being Infinite just came out, where as the last Half-Life game was roughly six years ago. As such, the character of Elizabeth is much fresher than Alyx.

The other being that there's this prevailing movement, here on the Escapist, to hate, dismiss, or otherwise demean anything related to Half-Life. And this would include viewing Alyx as a "non-character".

Frankly, for me, both characters are so drastically different it's almost illogical to compare them.

One is the classic "damsel in distress", only with super powers.

The other is classic "touch-as-nails woman who never really got to be a woman".

The characterization and narrative tropes that surround each character type are not at all the same.

Apples and oranges people. Apples and Oranges. Besides, they're both fantastically written characters. A rarity in the gaming industry.

Why must we ruin that by pitting them both in a pissing contest?

I'm still going with Elizabeth though. Blue is my favorite color, and the shade they chose for her dress was simply breathtaking for me.

You liked the dress too? Oh good. Now I feel slightly less weird for thinking the same thing while playing.

XD

Who can't love that dress? Tbh though I liked both her dresses in the game.

OT: Flame shield up, I've never played any of the Half-Life games.

 

[Innegativeion]

*snip*

Reading this, I honestly don't believe that you've actually played it, or at least, maybe there's some alternate dimension warping going on here.

But whatever, I still like Elizabeth better than Vance. Personality wise eh... Alyx is perhaps a bit more independent.

From a strictly mechanical viewpoint I found Elizabeth worlds more useful. First thing I remember Vance doing when she became target-able by enemies is running out into a bunch of them and nabbing me a game over.

 

[Abomination]

Let's see, Liz can bend time and space and hands you money at regular intervals like a good hooker sho- like someone willing to assist her friend should.

But Alyx made Dog. Dog is awesome. Alyx wins.

 

[Innegativeion]

*snip*

If you would...

Do not use quotation marks when quoting something that wasn't said (IE "existentialist")

Do not assume you are the only person in the world capable of playing anything other than AAA games

Do not condemn a story based on its message (unless it's like... nazi propaganda, or something)

Besides,

Spoiler

Booker and Anna live, if you wait until after the credits. The story isn't about fatalism, it's about the power of choices, and the infinite potential for good and ill people hold within their simple lives. Thus the subtitle.

Super-dimension-powered Elizabeth probably lives too. Look closely at her necklace in the ending sequence.

 

[joshuaayt]

Elizabeth, hands down. She is, without a doubt, the best leaner I have ever seen.

Her leaning prowess is completely without competition- I have seen her leaning on things that, if I'm being honest with myself, I didn't think could ever be leant upon. I've seen her leaning on doors, on carriages, on walls, on those walls that are around stairs, scaffolding- She really is quite exceptional.

And don't even get me started on her looking skills. I'm honestly astounded at all the things I've seen her look at.

 

[Innegativeion]

*snip*

Spoiler

Well, except it was broken. It was a thing that happened in the game. Did you see it? Do you remember?

Bioshock's many-worlds interpretation is totally internally consistent.

Cycles can't be broken eh? Well, clearly they can in BSI, but only by choice. That's the point of the chalk board and the lottery. It points out that only choice can change anything. I'm confused as to how you speak with such authority on the many-worlds interpretation, considering it is a field that is almost entirely theoretical at the moment. Your declarations have no qualifiers. You speak as if they are irrefutable.

Booker goes through his cycle only 122 times exactly, and then dies. Then, there is only one possible universe left for him, where he awakes in his home, Anna still in his possession.

If we're going to get science-y here, the real many worlds interpretation states any given time-planck can diverse into an infinite number of realities, so really there's rarely a situation where a cycle CAN'T be broken.

 

[dagens24]

*snip*

Spoiler

Well, except it was broken. It was a thing that happened in the game. Did you see it? Do you remember?

Bioshock's many-worlds interpretation is totally internally consistent.

Cycles can't be broken eh? Well, clearly they can in BSI, but only by choice. That's the point of the chalk board and the lottery. It points out that only choice can change anything. I'm confused as to how you speak with such authority on the many-worlds interpretation, considering it is a field that is almost entirely theoretical at the moment. You declarations have no qualifiers. You speak as if they are irrefutable.

Booker goes through his cycle only 122 times exactly, and then dies. Then, there is only one possible universe left for him, where he awakes in his home, Anna still in his possession.

If we're going to get science-y here, the real many worlds interpretation states any given time-planck can diverse into an infinite number of realities, so really there's rarely a situation where a cycle CAN'T be broken.

Yes, the hand waving it does.

The hand waving for paradoxes. The hand waving for the incessant need to be mystic. That's its problem.

Thee thing is about the multiverse, if you read what is there on the topic, that probabilities always exist. trying to go into pseudo time travel evokes the same paradoxes that time travel has. Comstock still exists, because he exists in millions of worlds. To try to destroy that is ludicrous.

Even the Luteces agree, and the scene cuts out before we see anna. So as far as we know the cycle restarted again, just like the luteces elude to in the light house.

I've been following your discussion in this thread and you've perfectly summed up what I just can't enjoy Infinite. Thank you good sir.

 

[jpoon]

Elizabeth for me, she was a far more interesting character and did pretty well running around my wake of destruction.

 

[Innegativeion]

*snip*

You're simply not looking at it from the established rules of BSI. It doesn't claim to have anything to do with the real MWI. It's internally consistent, that's all I need, so long as it's clever. I don't understand your repeated criticism of too "mystic".

I mean, this in a series where inject-able stem cells give you telekinesis. You're trying to impose your own conception of reality on a game world that has it's own already established laws.

It's just grasping criticism. It would be like me dismissing the entirety of Half Life 2's story because the G Man can freeze time. And Half Life is far closer to the "science" part of science fiction than Bioshock is. It'd be like dismissing hamlet because 'pwah, ghosts?! That can't really happen. Too mystic.' You're simply rejecting the game world's established setting.

I really don't know how much hard science you were expecting from a game that used the ability to telepathically summon crows as a selling point.

 

[DrunkenMonkey]

*snip*

Spoiler

Well, except it was broken. It was a thing that happened in the game. Did you see it? Do you remember?

Bioshock's many-worlds interpretation is totally internally consistent.

Cycles can't be broken eh? Well, clearly they can in BSI, but only by choice. That's the point of the chalk board and the lottery. It points out that only choice can change anything. I'm confused as to how you speak with such authority on the many-worlds interpretation, considering it is a field that is almost entirely theoretical at the moment. You declarations have no qualifiers. You speak as if they are irrefutable.

Booker goes through his cycle only 122 times exactly, and then dies. Then, there is only one possible universe left for him, where he awakes in his home, Anna still in his possession.

If we're going to get science-y here, the real many worlds interpretation states any given time-planck can diverse into an infinite number of realities, so really there's rarely a situation where a cycle CAN'T be broken.

Yes, the hand waving it does.

The hand waving for paradoxes. The hand waving for the incessant need to be mystic. That's its problem.

Thee thing is about the multiverse, if you read what is there on the topic, that probabilities always exist. trying to go into pseudo time travel evokes the same paradoxes that time travel has. Comstock still exists, because he exists in millions of worlds. To try to destroy that is ludicrous.

Even the Luteces agree, and the scene cuts out before we see anna. So as far as we know the cycle restarted again, just like the luteces elude to in the light house.

Well you can hand waive paradoxes and the like if you establish rules in the plot, which Bioshock infinite has demonstrated throughout the game with "constants and variables" So it's more or less required to adapt real world knowledge to meet the fictional world's rule set, in order for the plot not to fall apart.

The post credits does not set anything into stone it's deliberately ambiguous to spark discussions via different interpretations of the plot. So if you say it restarts the loop, I can say it's a bittersweet ending with a Pyrrhic victory.

 

[BNguyen]

*snip*

Reading this, I honestly don't believe that you've actually played it, or at least, maybe there's some alternate dimension warping going on here.

But whatever, I still like Elizabeth better than Vance. Personality wise eh... Alyx is perhaps a bit more independent.

From a strictly mechanical viewpoint I found Elizabeth worlds more useful. First thing I remember Vance doing when she became target-able by enemies is running out into a bunch of them and nabbing me a game over.

yes I did. On hard, I was stuck in the vault, waiting for liz to get me more hand cannon ammo. Which can snipe pretty well. I was waiting for a long time to kill the ghost, and was forced to rambo and pick up guns, empty their clips, and get another. Every fight I mostly forgot liz was even there, until the vault when I saw her run back and hide behind a safe and stay there.

By the time I was getting to the atrium where they posted the skinned scalps on the sign, I abandoned mosquito turrets entirely.

You can't say "but but how can you not love the story and characters? You played it."

Story wise, I play more than just AAA. I play indies, and the most obscure games . When you are obscure, you don't have to worry about offending anyone, and you can be more honest and brutal. When you play a game that literally tries to convey the message that life is meaningless, and too painful, and you would be doing them a favor if you kill them, it kinda skews what you find a "existentialist" message.

Character wise, I explained above with others.

based on your posts, it seems you got a buggy version of the game - Elizabeth regularly handed ammo, money, health and salts right when I needed them, the turrets and mosquitoes also added a lot of help.

 

[BNguyen]

*snip*

You're simply not looking at it from the established rules of BSI. It doesn't claim to have anything to do with the real MWI. It's internally consistent, that's all I need, so long as it's clever. I don't understand your repeated criticism of too "mystic".

I mean, this in a series where inject-able stem cells give you telekinesis. You're trying to impose your own conception of reality on a game world that has it's own already established laws.

It's just grasping criticism. It would be like me dismissing the entirety of Half Life 2's story because the G Man can freeze time. And Half Life is far closer to the "science" part of science fiction than Bioshock is. It'd be like dismissing hamlet because 'pwah, ghosts?! That can't really happen. Too mystic.' You're simply rejecting the game world's established setting.

I really don't know how much hard science you were expecting from a game that used the ability to telepathically summon crows as a selling point.

Its not so much real multiverse, but actual paradoxes. A paradox you find through logic and deduction, not actual science.

Killing Comstock has the same effect as a grandfather paradox. Though that's not the biggest criticism, where what I said was correct and the loop restarted.

Because you can't destroy a loop, if its destroyed it goes back to the beginning and goes on again. Its the same reason the luteces say alive, died, will die. Elizabeth only reset the loop, she didn't destroy it. Which the luteces keep mentioning that it failed and they need another try.

But after 122 tries, you'd think a pair of geniuses would conclude that breaking a cycle is impossible and try another way. They even say what happens WILL happen regardless.

122 tries is definitely not enough to conclude that breaking a loop is impossible - after all, Edison failed over 2000 times before making a workable filament. If we regard his experiments as a loop by your logic, he should have just given up after the first few tries and said "it's impossible". A loop is not impossible to break, have enough starting points and enough variation, with time, a loop will not occur, and instead a multitude of different outcomes will occur.
And just because they say "What happens will happen regardless" is more like they expect it to happen because they'll seen it only so many times

 

[StupidNincompoop]

of course elizabeth is going to win here, because everybody in this forum seems to hate HL2.

 

[Innegativeion]

*snip*

I fail to see how this is a paradox, I presume you mean the killing in the ending scene, right?

Well, Elizabeth does have powers not bound by the laws of lower spacial dimensions. The Luteces clearly are not bound by causality and have powers nearly identical to hers.

For reasons why the Luteces continued their experiment, see BNguyen's post. Also Ms. Lutece was a fatalist, but Mr. Lutece was not, for further reasoning.

Also evidence that choice changes with each dimensional iteration; the necklace, which the luteces are always surprised by your choice, no matter which it is.

 

[Innegativeion]

If liz went back and kill Comstock, the only reason she, the Luteces, and Columbia even exist, then it nullifies everything that brought her to that point.

No luteces, no funding. They'd be stuck with no one believing them.

No Comstock, no powers given to anna, and no Columbia.

It only restarts the cycle. It would be exactly like killing your grandfather. Which is why the luteces keep score of what past bookers did, and why the Luteces were arguing over the experiment in the lighthouse.

The only thing you can do in a multiverse is be happy your version of the villain is dead, because you can't do much about the millions of other villians.

You're totally mis-interpretating what happened.

It's nothing like the grandfather paradox. The motivation for

Spoiler

drowning all versions of Booker that come to be baptized is not removed by doing so, because the luteces (and probably the Elizabeth whose siphon was destroyed) are scattered throughout probability space. They are not subject to 4th dimensional (time) causality. Therefor the motivation for the event

is preserved. It is logically sound.

Besides, there's no time travel involved here. I'm pretty sure the rules are different anyway.

 

[Innegativeion]

*snip*

You're wrong, I'm afraid.

Spoiler

Lutece has a Voxaphone that pretty explicitly states she (and by extension her brother) exist across all probabilities. She even uses the term "possibility space"

Elizabeth explains her newfound abilities to be essentially the same way during the lighthouse tour. She sees all and is not constrained by the bounds of lower dimensions.

also wrong about Anna,

Spoiler

since you can hear her crying in the final scene. I'm pretty sure most people will affirm that.

 

[VoidWanderer]

Alyx Vance, and I never played whatever Half-life game she was in.

Yes, Elizabeth had a character arc, but I just found her 'Press X to get stuff' mechanic very annoying, like when I reload and I hear her call out that she found health and I can't hit X to get it because I am reloading. The 'protect the thingie' mission was frustrating because the ally that helps you only does it when Elizabeth says it is ready, DESPITE the countdown timer indicating it could be used.

The number of times, she would find ammo when I needed health was frustrating as well.

I never had Alyx as an NPC ally, but I prefer her to the one I was allied with.

'Engage flameshield!'