Poll: Emma Watson's Speech on Gender Equality

[V4Viewtiful]

If a woman can chose not to be a mother any man can choose not to be a father.

And they can... by not having sex. How simple!

If they do decide to have sex anyway, then no, they don't get to decide to just absolve themselves of responsibility. They acted, and now they have to live with it, and that means supporting their children. Because, and this is the important part, the government doesn't give a damn about the father or the mother; it cares about the child and making sure it is properly supported.

Thank you for proving my point.

a woman can abort, give up or keep their children but by not giving a man at the least the right to not be a father, before birth or a year in, we've given women superior rights and that's not at all feminist if anything it's that stupid term Feminazism.

The government doesn't care about children, they don't care about you me, or any parent. They care about that mean green. Children and the things around them are heavily financed. are you even aware of just how much money a new born baby can generate till they're 18? Quarter of a million per head (if I included other stuff, it could clock up to more, child support, schooling, insurance).

That's what it comes down to, if you gave men and women equal reproductive rights the cash flow would steadily decline. because women would think even harder not lay down without insurance, if there was real dialogue there'd be less illiterate and unwanted and uncared for children because everyone will no the score.


And your rhetoric about "He doesn't want to be a father, don't have sex" crap, well what about the women? She did the same thing yet she's treated with the same expectation?
By not addressing it you ARE absolving it. It's the same thing with children, you ignore children misbehaving and pretty soon they'll get used to being allowed to keep misbehaving and they won't grow out of it or they'll go too far.

 

[Gamerpalooza]

Do you feel that traditional definitions and expectations of masculinity are confining for you?

No because as a male masculinity does not literally equate to machismo or masculine pride. Nor do those that exhibit masculinity are held back by its definition to be good people.

Regardless of gender identity in males. In this day in age in America you've got a choice to be who you want to be especially when you are an independent. While in your parents home growing up "expectations" and "standards" exist at an individual household level placed by your parents. Sometimes nonexists and sometimes they are ridiculous goalpost to accomplish.

Your parents having issues has nothing to do with absolutely anything outside of relationship issues.

I'll just say this and you females can take offense to it and get triggers. I don't give a shit.

Male and Female stigma exists.

The male stigma however can't hold up outside of culture influence which is such a poor statistic due to how diverse men have become due to all the sorts of issues that arise in an individuals life that cause such diversity to happen and take place. Even though "masculinity" keeps getting pushed as "machismo" that is female violence it wont ever live up to it because it isn't what you wish it to be.

You can continue using individuals that practice domestic violence to "link" all males as violent beings yet it is never gonna hold up because each individual regardless of age, gender, race, sexuality preference, ideology, and so on makes an individual an individual and the diversity alone prevents it from happening.

This is why when an "evil" male gets sentenced to whatever it's a sign of relief for just about everyone.

The female stigma however holds true time and time again even though it's kinda split between bad "manipulative and scheming" and "maternal and hygienic". Regardless of how many good women there are and how much good some women bring to the world it gets overshadowed by that separation.

Despite having so many generations to change this it has never ever changed and the only ones that can stop that are females. Which is why overall women on average can't be trusted with positions of power. Not saying that they can't handle it because there's many women that can and have shown it. Yet men have showed through the passage of time in our history that they can be the most vigilant even though the complete opposite can happen. Yet females in power show more and more that they take it too far. From Cleopatra to the Salem Witch Trials, to 3rd wave feminism, to what is currently happening here and now it's a damn shame. It's a shame since we have so many more prominent female figures all around the world that get overshadowed and overlooked because you know screw them for doing good in the world. Lets keep pushing the female stigma of manipulation and schemes.

You want gender equality? Start by first practicing what you preach before you go out and preach it.

The sole fact that I even had to bother to give my 2 cents on this distasteful generalization view point just comes to show my overall disgust with the flow of information for agenda pushing of gender equality that solves what? Daddy issues?

 

[V4Viewtiful]

Thank you for proving my point.

a woman can abort, give up or keep their children but by not giving a man at the least the right to not be a father, before birth or a year in, we've given women superior rights and that's not at all feminist if anything it's that stupid term Feminazism.

A woman can abort yes, because it's her body and she has the right to control it. The father, sadly enough, cannot do this because they lack the ability to get pregnant. Besides that, a man is entitled to taking custody of their child if the woman gives it up and imposing upon them if they so choose. Literally the only extra options available to women are available to them because they're the one's carrying the pregnancy around.

Oh yeah, that's true. too bad there are hoops that need to be jumped. And you know what. I'm not even asking or men to have the right to abort (lets be honest no man should have that right) but once the child is born, it belongs to both parties. And at that point there should bbe no tipping of the scales

The government doesn't care about children, they don't care about you me, or any parent. They care about that mean green. Children and the things around them are heavily financed. are you even aware of just how much money a new born baby can generate till they're 18? Quarter of a million per head (if I included other stuff, it could clock up to more).

Sure (why not?), government's only care about money. That doesn't detract from the point that to get the supposed money they need the children to be supported, whether it be by the parents or by them. So in this regard, they still only care about the children.[/quote]Again, true. However in terms of upbringing, role models and actual neutering are distant seconds. If you reaad about the childcare system, abuse in single parent homes etc, the records are pretty abysmal and all that money they gain from childcare a fraction is spent on a child's mental, physical and economical well-being
(hell in Briton, so much child abuse happened in care homes for kids it's embarrassing)

And your rhetoric about "He doesn't want to be a father, don't have sex" crap, well what about the women? She did the same thing yet she's treated with the same expectation?

Women also need to take responsibility for their sexual activity, and they do, because it's impossible for them not to. Having an abortion is taking responsibility for their sexual activity. Giving birth and raising the child is taking responsibility. Giving birth and giving up the child to someone else is taking responsibility. [/quote]yes and no, You not wrong but when it comes to making the baby yeah it's both responsibility however women aren't forced to do either or, a man can be forced though and have been (and are continuing to be). If a man rears a child doesn't know but then is brought up by the authorities he has to pay, in spite of his lack of knowledge.

Any Brits here watch Emmerdale? There was this story line where a cop "Donna" returned to the village to see her ex-husband "Marlon" and she returned with a toddler, guess what? It was his. She shoved this child he doesn't know down his face and expected him to accept it but do you know why she decided to reveal his long lost daughter? She was dying. She was complicit in raising this child on her own with no man or male role model for her daughter without the fathers knowledge but when she realizes she didn't have much time left instantly wanted to let him be a dad.
I thought it was the most disgusting display of maternal treachery I've ever seen but everyone kept defending her and blaming him even though he was put in an impossible position.
Now you may think i'm overreacting to a soap and you'd be right... If this didn't actually happen in real life as well.

If the father wants to take the child, the woman paying child support is taking responsibility.

not really, most men don't take child support and women don't pay the same steep amount. Also if a man who pays Child support gets married to another woman both checks get cut but if a women with the child gets married to someone richer than the babies father or they make more than twice their income neither the pay is altered or stopped.
Most men who marry into mixed families don't take the child support from the father, know why? Well, it's because and maybe it's just me but most men don't want another mans money providing for their house.

A woman's responsibilities aren't equal to men's and that's causing problems

 

[Thaluikhain]

hmm, personally its not confining but a minor annoyance, at least nowadays. For example, i enjoy cooking. Cant tell you how many "you would make an excellent wife one day" comments i get.

That's so weird, considering how many male TV chefs there are. Have they never heard of Gordon Ramsay?

It's one of those things, chefs are often male, but cooks are often female.

 

[Dark Knifer]

In the technical sense of the word yes, they are confining. I know many people who have trouble dealing with them. For me, I don't mind my predetermined gender role. I definitely think that everyone should be whatever they want but the traditional masculine traits of being strong in times of hard ship, dealing with stress with a solemn face, supporting others etc works alright for me.

It's a romantic, rose-tinted look on the mater considering I'm a white, straight male and if I lost one of these then gender roles would be quite damaging but it works for me but I don't think they should be standard and my particular way of life is considered 'normal' rather arbitrarily. Just work out your identity is and what works for you.

 

[TessN]

> do you feel that traditional definitions and expectations of masculinity are confining for you?

I'm a woman, so... no?

 

[TessN]

Oh yeah, that's true. too bad there are hoops that need to be jumped. And you know what. I'm not even asking or men to have the right to abort (lets be honest no man should have that right) but once the child is born, it belongs to both parties. And at that point there should bbe no tipping of the scales

1. You realize that kids are not merely personal property or bundles of support cash but enormous, time-consuming responsibilities, yes?

2. I agree with a couple of caveats: first, there may be medical/health reasons to prefer the gestational parent to allow a newborn to breastfeed. Second: later on, the bias should not be toward either gender, but toward *the primary caregiver.* It is nearly always the case that one parent is primarily responsible for taking kids to events, staying home from work when kids are sick, etc. The other parent may help as well, but it's very rare that the distribution of effort is 50/50. Whoever the primary caregiver is, regardless of that parent's gender, should be the default custodial parent.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

First of all, I don't appreciate this poll's options. You cannot mention "mammoth penis" in one of the choices without horribly skewing the result.

...I...I had no choice. I had to pick it. Otherwise it's like admitting that I don't, in fact, have a mammoth penis. Which I totally do.

I had no choice!

It depends on the issue really.

Men generally are expected to be the stronger sex, but thats because we are. Not saying we don't have feelings, but we won't get anywhere as a society if we all go around being big blubbery messes because Phil wore the same shirt to the office today.

Yes, men need support for stuff like suicide, domestic abuse, rape. We also need our rights as a part of raising a child recognized.

My girlfriend is a feminist, but recognizes the need for gender roles, because if shes having a bad day, if I let her mood ruinine we'd just ***** and moan at each other and then the dogs wouldn't get walked. And if the dogs don't get walked then they shit and piss all over the house, then we're in a bad mood and there's shit and piss all over everything.

And that is an apt metaphore for the whole situation. Someone has to suck it up and get on with things, or it'll all get covered in shit. And piss.

Second, this post reminded of this speech -


Which, I'll be honest, I put more stock into than Emma's...which I've totally listened to. I have. No, really. I have.

I have something to do right now and it's not what you think. It- It's porn. I swear.

 

[Excelsior789]

Personally? No, not really. That's just because I can't be bothered with it to be honest though. I can understand people responding "yes" as well since such stereotypes are archaic and don't really have a place in modern culture beyond simple novelty.

 

[Maphysto]

She is part of the most privileged class in the world, white western wealthy attractive female. And she has the temerity to whine about supposed sexism in britain? It was laughable. She has more rights than men even, she gets to decide if a man becomes a father even against his consent, she can kill the child or force him to be a father, she has more right than a man. And that's just a start.

welp a rich white chick talked about sexism guess we should ignore every point she made on principle rather than examine their merits

 

[Spearmaster]

Not at all.

Are Feminist really asking Men for help so they can re-write the gender roles to suit women and then try to convince us its a prize for Men because Feminist know whats better for Men? Really?

 

[Namehere]

I haven't had a conventional life by most standards and so don't have a conventional view of life. With that said, I suppose gender rolls matter. I just don't view myself in that way. I can see how others might feel trapped or restricted by them. I don't personally feel that way, but as I said I'm hardly a baseline people should be measured against.

HeForShe actually seems interesting - as such campaigns go. Certainly a lot more forward and reaching then others of this type I've seen out there. I'm all for it in theory, we'll have to see what practice brings to bare in the near future.

 

[CFriis87]

There are a number of reasons the MRM as it is now is firmly against feminism, most of which you can rea, along with sources, in this post of mine.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.861411-Poll-Emma-Watsons-Speech-on-Gender-Equality?page=7#21443114

I do admire the depth of the cherry picking there.

How many more examples do you need before it stops being cherry picking and turns into a full blown harvest? 5? 10? 20?
These are all really big problems with the feminist movement that prove it's not about equality, but about whatever the feminists with the most political power wants it to be about.

 

[CFriis87]

Women also need to take responsibility for their sexual activity, and they do, because it's impossible for them not to. Having an abortion is taking responsibility for their sexual activity. Giving birth and raising the child is taking responsibility. Giving birth and giving up the child to someone else is taking responsibility. If the father wants to take the child, the woman paying child support is taking responsibility.

No, all you're doing is saying that no matter what choice the mother takes, it means she's taking responsibility. Hell you might as well add "If she throws it in a dumpster, she's taking responsibility." to that list of yours.
If she gives the child away via either adoption or safe haven laws, she's not taking responsibility, she's giving it away.
If she has an abortion, she's not taking responsibility, she's eliminating it.
If she chooses to have the baby, she shares the responsibility with whoever she names as father, the state will see to that.
The difference is that women get the choice, men don't.
And you saying that men can just choose to not have sex is exactly the same disgusting argument that you hear from super-conservative pro-lifers.

 

[CFriis87]

Male genital mutilation remains acceptable, in fact in some cases even desirable, in the US. Some traditional subcultures in the US even go so far as to perform the mutilation by BITING the foreskin off.

Well...male genital mutilation (or circumcision) is quite the male equivalent to female genital mutilation. With female circumcision, it literally fucks the girl's vagina for life, to the point that it hurts even being sexually penetrated (that's part of the point, for some sadistic reason). With men, while some would argue nerve endings are severed and the foreskin is a fairly important part of the penis, it's got a much lower chance of being botched or having long-term problems, and you can still get a good amount of girth and pleasure during sex. With women, it's a 100% failure, because female circumcision doesn't make the vagina any cleaner, any more religiously pure, or anything.

Although, yeah, biting off a boy?s foreskin is?well, that?s just fucking crazy.

You are incorrect, or at the very least your knowledge on the topic is wholly inadequate.
There are FOUR different overall types of female circumcision, whereof THREE types are milder or similar in damage to male circumcision.

Procedures

Female genital mutilation is classified into four major types.

1. Clitoridectomy: partial or total removal of the clitoris (a small, sensitive and erectile part of the female genitals) and, in very rare cases, only the prepuce (the fold of skin surrounding the clitoris).
2. Excision: partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (the labia are "the lips" that surround the vagina).
3. Infibulation: narrowing of the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal. The seal is formed by cutting and repositioning the inner, or outer, labia, with or without removal of the clitoris.
4. Other: all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, e.g. pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterizing the genital area.

The female circumcision type you speak of is Infibulation and are mistakenly assuming that this is what all female circumcision is and thus comparing male circumcision to only that.
Worse yet, you're using this false equivalence non-argument to defend genital mutilation of men.
Please stop doing that immediately.

 

[apollogon]

Blimey there sure aren't many real problems left in the world anymore, huh?

"No because as male masculinity does not literally equate to machismo or masculine pride. Nor do those that exhibit masculinity are held back by its definition to be good people."

Yep

How on earth does Emma Watson KNOW she understands what men feel? To say that she knows men aren't perpetuating masculinity because it's normal part of our biology. But against our self interest since we really are actually secretly so emotional and womanly. No Emma, you're a rich insulated misinformed & obnoxious ideologue who's had a few guys tell you nonsense to get in your pants. The United Nations is such a joke.

 

[Erttheking]

I love it how feminists who hate men now say that men need to help them with gender issues.

fucking hypocrites.

Honey Badger Radio's recent episode had a section over Emma Watsons plea that the strong men need to help the weak women with their gender issues.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic, this is how that entire speech came off to me as. Feminism in it's initial version was the celebration of women and treating them with equal rights when there was none.

Now the idiots have come out of the woodwork and believe big poppa patriarchy is behind everything and that a matriarchy will fix everything, not to mention the #killallmen bullshit they spew.

*Sigh* Look, that isn't what it's about at all. I would love to talk about it with you, but I'm feeling extremely burned out right now, so I only want to talk if we can both agree to keep this civil. Agreed?

 

[Mikeybb]

Dependent on the situation.

I've known people it has affected worse.

One example, without naming names of course, was a fellow student who wanted to become a primary school teacher.
Younger children.
He received questioning looks every time he answered that when asked 'what subject'.
The assumption being he was going to teach a defined subject at high school level, a more specialized role with a perceived focus on education rather than care, which is often associated with primary school teachers.
The truth is, Primary school teaching is as challenging a job as other levels of teaching, just with different requirements.

Some of the questioning was why a man would want to care for children.
Some was towards his capacity to care for children.
...and the worst were even suspicious of his motivations, if you understand the unsaid implication there.

So yes, I do believe that masculinity expectations can be binding for some.

It did not halt his efforts and, when I last saw him, he was well on the way to completing his training and moving on to actual qualification.

...but it did make the journey a little more uncomfortable and unwelcoming.

That's why I answered 'maybe', because while I don't think gender expectations will stop anyone with sufficient will and aptitude, there's a degree of stigma or attention received surrounding people breaking these roles that, frankly, is undeserved.

 

[Something Amyss]

How many more examples do you need before it stops being cherry picking and turns into a full blown harvest? 5? 10? 20?

20 out of a movement of how many? I can find 20 men who are rapists, should I expound that into a philosophy that I'm anti-male because men are rapists, or does it suddenly become silly when I choose a target that's not feminism?

 

[Tomwa]

She perfectly ignored all actual men's issues (Especially here in the US):

1. The fact that women receive less prison time for equally severe crimes.
2. The fact that we STILL don't have shared parenting by default.
3. The crazy and unfair alimony that is constantly being ripped from men.
4. The fact that men are constantly being robbed for children they never even get to see.
5. The fact that male victims of domestic violence and female->male sexual abuse are constantly ignored.
6. The fact that in the U.S. 80% of suicides are men and boys (And the majority pattern holds for other places as well).
7. The fact that feminism is pushing garbage anti-male, anti-justice measures here forcing congress to reduce the burden of proof in sexual assault cases on campus, and completely trampling the presumption of innocence.
8. Misandry towards men in the media in the form of the "Stupid man-pig husband",
9. The fact that infant circumcision of men is routinely performed, irreparably harming a man's genitals without his consent and with the potential loss of the penis in rare cases.

Emma Watson is a feminist, feminists don't care about men, they don't even care about women. They only care about themselves and when they started to realize that feminism is failing they called out to the men to help them. Less than 23% percent of women and 16% of men are feminists, I hope that by 2020 that is 0% on both sides.

Masculinity is not an issue the constant attack against it though very much is.