Poll: Emma Watson's Speech on Gender Equality

thenoblitt

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I thought it was dumb that she goes off and says oh yes men are oppressed too so what they should do is support women.
 

V4Viewtiful

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Yeah, she has a point, rearing children men are devalued especially in single mother households. Women may have the right to not be a mother but most men could do that, not an abortion per say but they can't sign away there rights have no say in what their child support money is for and run the risk of being taken to the cleaners in a divorce even though she did nothing to help or if she simply married into it. There's not even such a thing as paternity fraud. Women are provided legal council far easily than men.

However every time issues of feminism comes up it somehow turns into male expectations, I mean talk to any random open feminist (I dare you!) and they'll tell you straight what a man is suppose to do and be and what a woman is supposed to have... Now reverse that and see how they struggle.

The emasculation of males is as damaging as the the devaluing of women however I can't blame women or feminism directly as most of these problems are controlled by men, we make most laws set most standards and are most of the authority figures.
But the reason men aren't going "...yeah, things need to change" is because there's no money in it, especially in regards to children and health (mental or otherwise).


So I don't think she's wrong but it's not getting to the root of the problem.
 

Relish in Chaos

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She?s made some good points in a reasoned manner, which is more than I can say for a lot of other gung-ho activists. I mean, I?m a guy and, despite having had more than my fair share of shitty days where I just felt like crawling into a black hole, I?ve only cried about twice in the last four years: at the school memorial of one of my classmates, and towards the end of watching Grave of the Fireflies.

On the other hand, I?ve known girls who are much able to get the tears flowing when things get on top of them. I don?t think it?s all about ?tend and befriend? vs. ?fight or flight?; I think it?s partly due to socialisation and some stuff just sticks and never goes away with some people.

But to answer your question?no, I don?t really feel like traditional definitions and expectations of masculinity are confining for me. Not that much, at least. I?ve never been the manliest of men, but I?ve never been outwardly effeminate either. I?m probably the most open person in my main friend group about my feelings, and they?ve never seriously lambasted me for it. The majority of my interests are rather gender-neutral: writing, anime, etc. I?m not the best with girls, and it is kind of sucky that I?m expected to start the conversation with a girl that I like, but, y?know, I?m not gonna pretend like I?m disadvantaged or anything.

However, I also don?t like some feminists? mentality that women are constantly victims in society, that need to be protected from the patriarchy, etc. Like, if my sister?s male colleague pinched her butt at the workplace, I?d call him an asshole rather than a misogynist. I wouldn?t say the majority of men have the mentality that it?s OK to go up to a stranger and touch them wherever they want just because they?re a girl. If they do, then?they?re assholes, and no-one told them it?s OK to do that.

Westaway said:
Nah I'm pretty sure gender roles exist because of biology, not social pressure.
Some of them, not all.

renegade7 said:
Male genital mutilation remains acceptable, in fact in some cases even desirable, in the US. Some traditional subcultures in the US even go so far as to perform the mutilation by BITING the foreskin off.
Well...male genital mutilation (or circumcision) is quite the male equivalent to female genital mutilation. With female circumcision, it literally fucks the girl's vagina for life, to the point that it hurts even being sexually penetrated (that's part of the point, for some sadistic reason). With men, while some would argue nerve endings are severed and the foreskin is a fairly important part of the penis, it's got a much lower chance of being botched or having long-term problems, and you can still get a good amount of girth and pleasure during sex. With women, it's a 100% failure, because female circumcision doesn't make the vagina any cleaner, any more religiously pure, or anything.

Although, yeah, biting off a boy?s foreskin is?well, that?s just fucking crazy.
 

Fox12

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wetnap said:
Doclector said:
SANITY! AT LONG LAST SANITY!

Seriously though, it's a good speech. Hopefully it goes somewhere.
It was terrible.

Instead of spending her time talking about real sexism in the world, she just reinforced the idea that western feminists are entitled women who are just trying to find anything to complain about.

So she was called bossy by her brothers for wanting to direct a play, non context, perhaps she was bossy, and her bossy attitude got her the role as the bossy hermione character she got to play, seems like she got rewarded for it, to a tune of 30 million dollars. So complaining about how you were treated as a kid in one incident is simply bonkers, kids pick on one another, reading too much into it is absurd. Her other example..her female friends stopped playing sports because they didnt want to be athletic, yea? So what. Is that trivial thing really evidence of "sexism" or the fact that men and women have different interests. I highly doubt those same friends followed sports the same way many male sports fan do, and male sports fans do not necessarily play the sport themselves either, its not because they are worried about their bodies, its because they don't want to, or they are lazy. But if one wanted to use the feminist mindset, it must be misandry that stops those mens from playing sports when they get older, held back by society, forced to be content watching from the side lines....
blaah...

She is part of the most privileged class in the world, white western wealthy attractive female. And she has the temerity to whine about supposed sexism in britain? It was laughable. She has more rights than men even, she gets to decide if a man becomes a father even against his consent, she can kill the child or force him to be a father, she has more right than a man. And that's just a start.
She can force a man to be a father without his consent? Whoa, how did she do that? Is it one of her wizard powers? Can she make me a father without my consent? How do I protect myself?

Oh, wait, you mean sex. If a man chooses to have consensual sex with a woman, then he can't complain about being "forced" to become a father, especially if it was unprotected. She didn't force him to have sex, it was a choice he made. He should also help provide for the child he made, atleast financially, if in no other way. I would argue the same should hold true for women, though my pro-life stance will probably earn me hate. Have all the sex you want, but a woman an't force you to be a father. It's called taking responsibility for your life.

Anyway, her points are good. It's foolish to say that a woman should be less submissive while also telling a man that he needs to be authoritative and mocho. You can be a strong male role model without being a testosterone fueled junkie. Basically, you can't change one half of the gender spectrum without looking at the problems with both sides.
 

Jack Action

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A rich, ridiculously beautiful woman. I'm sure her life is absolutely horrible.

To answer the poll (because I've had just enough alcohol to be incapable of reading 7 pages of posts to contribute otherwise), no, I don't. Not expressing emotions comes naturally to me.
 

Flowen

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The_Darkness said:
YES.

A handful of quick examples:

Women are more open with their feelings. I wish it was more culturally acceptable for men to show weakness, or emotion or whatever.

Men are expected to be the ones who do the asking out. For the record - asking people out is terrifying.

I enjoy ballroom and latin dancing, writing fanfic, horse-riding, and I really don't enjoy most team sports (football, rugby, etc). All of those have earned me strange looks at times.

So... yes, gender stereotypes feel confining. And I say that as a guy. I also recognise that it's worse for women, and probably at a whole new level of horrible if you're somewhere in the middle.
I enjoy both Rugby and Ballroom / Latin dancing. I have never been as terrified playing rubgy as I have been learning tango.
 

V4Viewtiful

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Fox12 said:
Oh, wait, you mean sex. If a man chooses to have consensual sex with a woman, then he can't complain about being "forced" to become a father, especially if it was unprotected. She didn't force him to have sex, it was a choice he made. He should also help provide for the child he made, atleast financially, if in no other way. I would argue the same should hold true for women, though my pro-life stance will probably earn me hate. Have all the sex you want, but a woman an't force you to be a father. It's called taking responsibility for your life.
Bullsh!t


That train of thought alone is a reason why women can never be equal, the fact that you would state that a woman bares little to no of the responsibility for her sexual exploits over a mans is tantamount to treating women like ignorant children.
You assume a man is sexually irressponsible for not covering it up but where are the people saying "why didn't you make him wear a condom?"

A woman has a privilege and in some/many countries a man doesn't have, a right to decide "what ever enters me I want to come forth" in regards to creating life, excluding rape a man can't come in a woman's house, her mouth or between her legs without her say so.

That's what equality is, equal share of responsibility, actions, judgement and punishment.


EDIT
On that note, have any of you been chatted up to by a girl and when you said you weren't interested was accused of being gay? What is that?
 

implodinggoat

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BloatedGuppy said:
Both men and women should feel free to be sensitive. Both men and women should feel free to be strong.
This is a contradiction in terms. You either rule your emotions or they rule you.

You can either be sensitive or strong, yin or yang. They both have value; but homogenizing them weakens them both.
 

V4Viewtiful

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Baffle said:
V4Viewtiful said:
A woman has a privilege and in some/many countries a man doesn't have, a right to decide "what ever enters me I want to come forth" in regards to creating life, excluding rape a man can't come in a woman's house, her mouth or between her legs without her say so.
You'll have to forgive me for being an idiot, but I'm confused on two points;

"what ever enters me I want to come forth"
Generally, if something enters me, I want it to come forth. Rarely does something enter me. In truth, food does so the most. And yes, I want it to come forth, for other wise I would be a giant of a man. A rotund fellow, the like of which you have never seen. A man so barrel-like, they might call me 'baffle the barrel' (if Baffle was my real name).
I said in regards to creating life, you!

excluding rape a man can't come in a woman's house, her mouth or between her legs without her say so.
You are correct, this is absolutely the case, except the house example. That is being an unwanted guest, not a rapist.

edit: screwed my quotes up because I'm a fool of a Took.
Ha! thanks for the laugh, you got me there. ;)

LifeCharacter said:
V4Viewtiful said:
Fox12 said:
Oh, wait, you mean sex. If a man chooses to have consensual sex with a woman, then he can't complain about being "forced" to become a father, especially if it was unprotected. She didn't force him to have sex, it was a choice he made. He should also help provide for the child he made, atleast financially, if in no other way. I would argue the same should hold true for women, though my pro-life stance will probably earn me hate. Have all the sex you want, but a woman an't force you to be a father. It's called taking responsibility for your life.
Bullsh!t

That train of thought alone is a reason why women can never be equal, the fact that you would state that a woman bares little to no of the responsibility for her sexual exploits over a mans is tantamount to treating women like ignorant children.
You assume a man is sexually irressponsible for not covering it up but where are the people saying "why didn't you make him wear a condom?"
Where in Fox's post did it say that women take little to no responsibility for their sexual exploits? All I saw was that men should take responsibility for theirs. Is asking men to take responsibility for their actions to the slightest of degrees absolving women of all their responsibility now?

I'm honestly not sure what train of thought you're on, but you should probably get off and come back, because it's taking you away from the actual point being made.
By not including women it's implied
All anyone ever says is "Take care of your responsibilities" in regards to me to the point that even the US president goes on about it but when has anyone said "You women need to stop having kids you can't provide for" A women can keep, abort, give up her child but a man can barely sign away his rights as easily as a woman.

The men that don't stick around are generally/typically not father material to begin with but women still allow them to impregnate them. Now these women raise these kids on their own (with their mother and the government) and are the first teachers of their children knowing how sexually irresponsible they where won't then provide their own children with the protection they ignored. You can't hold men responsible for something like that, they aren't there.

If fox said "same thing with women" or something there'd be no issue but he made a blanket statement what men should do and even if men did "take care of their responsibilities" there's no real benefit to it,
- he pays child support, she doesn't have to let him see his children.
- you lose your job get an unemployment check, she can claim half (sometimes more than half)
- she gets made the police get you and when they find out she lied but she is not punished and still can't see his kids anymore
- she can put the baby up for adoption without the fathers consent.
- she needs to maintain a high standard of living for her kids an is provided with furnished accommodation yet the mans children have to visit a studio apartment to see their dad
- you miss a child support payment you can go to prison for up to six months get a criminal record and they still ask for repayments despite collecting more on that debt.

And these examples aren't isolated, it happens a lot, so my train of thought is don't make it sound that simple, cause it's not.

If a woman can chose not to be a mother any man can choose not to be a father.
 

V4Viewtiful

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LifeCharacter said:
V4Viewtiful said:
If a woman can chose not to be a mother any man can choose not to be a father.
And they can... by not having sex. How simple!

If they do decide to have sex anyway, then no, they don't get to decide to just absolve themselves of responsibility. They acted, and now they have to live with it, and that means supporting their children. Because, and this is the important part, the government doesn't give a damn about the father or the mother; it cares about the child and making sure it is properly supported.
Thank you for proving my point.

a woman can abort, give up or keep their children but by not giving a man at the least the right to not be a father, before birth or a year in, we've given women superior rights and that's not at all feminist if anything it's that stupid term Feminazism.

The government doesn't care about children, they don't care about you me, or any parent. They care about that mean green. Children and the things around them are heavily financed. are you even aware of just how much money a new born baby can generate till they're 18? Quarter of a million per head (if I included other stuff, it could clock up to more, child support, schooling, insurance).

That's what it comes down to, if you gave men and women equal reproductive rights the cash flow would steadily decline. because women would think even harder not lay down without insurance, if there was real dialogue there'd be less illiterate and unwanted and uncared for children because everyone will no the score.


And your rhetoric about "He doesn't want to be a father, don't have sex" crap, well what about the women? She did the same thing yet she's treated with the same expectation?
By not addressing it you ARE absolving it. It's the same thing with children, you ignore children misbehaving and pretty soon they'll get used to being allowed to keep misbehaving and they won't grow out of it or they'll go too far.
 

Gamerpalooza

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Do you feel that traditional definitions and expectations of masculinity are confining for you?
No because as a male masculinity does not literally equate to machismo or masculine pride. Nor do those that exhibit masculinity are held back by its definition to be good people.

Regardless of gender identity in males. In this day in age in America you've got a choice to be who you want to be especially when you are an independent. While in your parents home growing up "expectations" and "standards" exist at an individual household level placed by your parents. Sometimes nonexists and sometimes they are ridiculous goalpost to accomplish.

Your parents having issues has nothing to do with absolutely anything outside of relationship issues.

I'll just say this and you females can take offense to it and get triggers. I don't give a shit.

Male and Female stigma exists.

The male stigma however can't hold up outside of culture influence which is such a poor statistic due to how diverse men have become due to all the sorts of issues that arise in an individuals life that cause such diversity to happen and take place. Even though "masculinity" keeps getting pushed as "machismo" that is female violence it wont ever live up to it because it isn't what you wish it to be.

You can continue using individuals that practice domestic violence to "link" all males as violent beings yet it is never gonna hold up because each individual regardless of age, gender, race, sexuality preference, ideology, and so on makes an individual an individual and the diversity alone prevents it from happening.

This is why when an "evil" male gets sentenced to whatever it's a sign of relief for just about everyone.

The female stigma however holds true time and time again even though it's kinda split between bad "manipulative and scheming" and "maternal and hygienic". Regardless of how many good women there are and how much good some women bring to the world it gets overshadowed by that separation.

Despite having so many generations to change this it has never ever changed and the only ones that can stop that are females. Which is why overall women on average can't be trusted with positions of power. Not saying that they can't handle it because there's many women that can and have shown it. Yet men have showed through the passage of time in our history that they can be the most vigilant even though the complete opposite can happen. Yet females in power show more and more that they take it too far. From Cleopatra to the Salem Witch Trials, to 3rd wave feminism, to what is currently happening here and now it's a damn shame. It's a shame since we have so many more prominent female figures all around the world that get overshadowed and overlooked because you know screw them for doing good in the world. Lets keep pushing the female stigma of manipulation and schemes.

You want gender equality? Start by first practicing what you preach before you go out and preach it.

The sole fact that I even had to bother to give my 2 cents on this distasteful generalization view point just comes to show my overall disgust with the flow of information for agenda pushing of gender equality that solves what? Daddy issues?
 

V4Viewtiful

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LifeCharacter said:
V4Viewtiful said:
Thank you for proving my point.

a woman can abort, give up or keep their children but by not giving a man at the least the right to not be a father, before birth or a year in, we've given women superior rights and that's not at all feminist if anything it's that stupid term Feminazism.
A woman can abort yes, because it's her body and she has the right to control it. The father, sadly enough, cannot do this because they lack the ability to get pregnant. Besides that, a man is entitled to taking custody of their child if the woman gives it up and imposing upon them if they so choose. Literally the only extra options available to women are available to them because they're the one's carrying the pregnancy around.
Oh yeah, that's true. too bad there are hoops that need to be jumped. And you know what. I'm not even asking or men to have the right to abort (lets be honest no man should have that right) but once the child is born, it belongs to both parties. And at that point there should bbe no tipping of the scales

The government doesn't care about children, they don't care about you me, or any parent. They care about that mean green. Children and the things around them are heavily financed. are you even aware of just how much money a new born baby can generate till they're 18? Quarter of a million per head (if I included other stuff, it could clock up to more).
Sure (why not?), government's only care about money. That doesn't detract from the point that to get the supposed money they need the children to be supported, whether it be by the parents or by them. So in this regard, they still only care about the children.[/quote]Again, true. However in terms of upbringing, role models and actual neutering are distant seconds. If you reaad about the childcare system, abuse in single parent homes etc, the records are pretty abysmal and all that money they gain from childcare a fraction is spent on a child's mental, physical and economical well-being
(hell in Briton, so much child abuse happened in care homes for kids it's embarrassing)

And your rhetoric about "He doesn't want to be a father, don't have sex" crap, well what about the women? She did the same thing yet she's treated with the same expectation?
Women also need to take responsibility for their sexual activity, and they do, because it's impossible for them not to. Having an abortion is taking responsibility for their sexual activity. Giving birth and raising the child is taking responsibility. Giving birth and giving up the child to someone else is taking responsibility. [/quote]yes and no, You not wrong but when it comes to making the baby yeah it's both responsibility however women aren't forced to do either or, a man can be forced though and have been (and are continuing to be). If a man rears a child doesn't know but then is brought up by the authorities he has to pay, in spite of his lack of knowledge.

Any Brits here watch Emmerdale? There was this story line where a cop "Donna" returned to the village to see her ex-husband "Marlon" and she returned with a toddler, guess what? It was his. She shoved this child he doesn't know down his face and expected him to accept it but do you know why she decided to reveal his long lost daughter? She was dying. She was complicit in raising this child on her own with no man or male role model for her daughter without the fathers knowledge but when she realizes she didn't have much time left instantly wanted to let him be a dad.
I thought it was the most disgusting display of maternal treachery I've ever seen but everyone kept defending her and blaming him even though he was put in an impossible position.
Now you may think i'm overreacting to a soap and you'd be right... If this didn't actually happen in real life as well.


If the father wants to take the child, the woman paying child support is taking responsibility.
not really, most men don't take child support and women don't pay the same steep amount. Also if a man who pays Child support gets married to another woman both checks get cut but if a women with the child gets married to someone richer than the babies father or they make more than twice their income neither the pay is altered or stopped.
Most men who marry into mixed families don't take the child support from the father, know why? Well, it's because and maybe it's just me but most men don't want another mans money providing for their house.

A woman's responsibilities aren't equal to men's and that's causing problems
 

Thaluikhain

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MisterM2402 said:
Ryotknife said:
hmm, personally its not confining but a minor annoyance, at least nowadays. For example, i enjoy cooking. Cant tell you how many "you would make an excellent wife one day" comments i get.
That's so weird, considering how many male TV chefs there are. Have they never heard of Gordon Ramsay?
It's one of those things, chefs are often male, but cooks are often female.
 

Dark Knifer

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In the technical sense of the word yes, they are confining. I know many people who have trouble dealing with them. For me, I don't mind my predetermined gender role. I definitely think that everyone should be whatever they want but the traditional masculine traits of being strong in times of hard ship, dealing with stress with a solemn face, supporting others etc works alright for me.

It's a romantic, rose-tinted look on the mater considering I'm a white, straight male and if I lost one of these then gender roles would be quite damaging but it works for me but I don't think they should be standard and my particular way of life is considered 'normal' rather arbitrarily. Just work out your identity is and what works for you.
 

TessN

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> do you feel that traditional definitions and expectations of masculinity are confining for you?

I'm a woman, so... no?