http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html?ref=fb&src=sp#sb=1725249,b=facebook
Poll: Ex-marine shot at 70 times hit atleast 60 bleeds out because SWAT team wouldn't let paramedic's in
- Thread starter Matt Oliver
- Start date
What a dreadful situation... x_x On one hand the SWAT team had the right to assume the man was a threat if he had a weapon, but the marine just wanted to protect his family from (what I'm assuming he thought was) a home invasion. And the poor kid... my god... the poor kid...
Its always morbidly funny (to me at least) when a military vet dies unfairly in the country he just fought for. I know this is terrible, and yes it is terrible, but I dont know, thats just what I think.
SWAT are definitely int he wrong here, regardless of if he was armed or not. You're tellingm e you couldnt have stunned him? And you wouldnt let him see Paramedics? What was he going to do, gut one and use the guy's intestines as a garrote? Oh well, another fatherless young child, another young man's life gone, and another screw up that could have been handled better if five seconds would have been taken to just say hi, whats up.
SWAT are definitely int he wrong here, regardless of if he was armed or not. You're tellingm e you couldnt have stunned him? And you wouldnt let him see Paramedics? What was he going to do, gut one and use the guy's intestines as a garrote? Oh well, another fatherless young child, another young man's life gone, and another screw up that could have been handled better if five seconds would have been taken to just say hi, whats up.
This is why I don't like america's police system. Don't they have to show you a warrent to get into your damned house? Don't they have to pronouce themselves as Police? I mean if someone just randomly bashed into my house, I'd blow them away, Cops, Robbers, Fourign Invaders, anyone.
Did the guy even fire his gun?
Don't they have to fire at you first in War with that Jeneva convintion crap? Does this apply to police?
And think, THIS WAS BECAUSE OF SUSPECTED WEED TRAFFICING. I could understand Cocain, but Majiuana? I disagree with using it, but still, they took that a little far.
I hope all of those cops lose there jobs, or better yet, lets redo the entire police system (Atleast for my city, because we've got a lot of problems) Get guys from the military at street corners, your not likely to trafic drugs if there is a guy with an assault rifle at every turn.
Did the guy even fire his gun?
Don't they have to fire at you first in War with that Jeneva convintion crap? Does this apply to police?
And think, THIS WAS BECAUSE OF SUSPECTED WEED TRAFFICING. I could understand Cocain, but Majiuana? I disagree with using it, but still, they took that a little far.
I hope all of those cops lose there jobs, or better yet, lets redo the entire police system (Atleast for my city, because we've got a lot of problems) Get guys from the military at street corners, your not likely to trafic drugs if there is a guy with an assault rifle at every turn.
This is appalling, and yet not really surprising. I plan on moving to Canada as soon as I can support myself, because the USA is kinda f'ed up at the moment.
they don't if they have a 'no-knock' warrant which is to have the element of surprise. and no the guy had his safety on, this wasn't a mistake for him, that is what he was trained to do, to see if the targets are allies or hostile in a sense. he wasn't going to fire at allies, switching a safety on and off is easy and quick so he would of been able to turn his gun's safety off if he needed too and survive.MASTACHIEFPWN said:
And this is why I don't understand all the people on all the threads about guns that think being able to legally own a gun is a good idea.If it was illegal to own a gun they would never have had to shoot him because they thought he was a threat.That said I don't know why they didn't let paramedics in that clearly was a horrible thing to do.Though I doubt his chances of survival would be high if he had been shot 60 times.
Once again proof that more guns does not make a country safer.
Once again proof that more guns does not make a country safer.
I can't believe this. We have police to inforce the laws and protect people, and here it seems they have done enither. While I am trying hard not to prematurely judge them, I still find it absurd that they couldnt stun him, or fire less than SEVENTY rounds. The fact that they are now keeping everything on the hush-hush also seems suspicious. If you've done nothing wrong, wouldn't you be completely open to prove it when people start asking questions?
I just can't believe this, or rather, I pray it isn't true. Unfortunately, this isn't the only time ridiculous us of force has been used by the police. I pray that the family is somehow looked after, and that the truth of this is known, and punishment delt out accordingly. I don't even pray that often, but for this, yea, I'll ask the Big Guy to intercede.
I just can't believe this, or rather, I pray it isn't true. Unfortunately, this isn't the only time ridiculous us of force has been used by the police. I pray that the family is somehow looked after, and that the truth of this is known, and punishment delt out accordingly. I don't even pray that often, but for this, yea, I'll ask the Big Guy to intercede.
While I agree with how the S.W.A.T team acted, the guy did had a gun pointed in their general direction, what if it was robbers instead of the S.W.A.T team? You would rather be armed and prepared to receive them, or would you accept your fate, while they rob you, have their ways with your wife, and probably kill her or your kid for fun?thelonewolf266 said:
Then again, I'm surprised that this happened during broad daylight or that these cops didn't use flashbangs or something similar to incapacitate G.I Joe.
Stun him...with what? He was at the end of a long, dark hallway and armed with a rifle. Besides, SWAT doesn't generally carry non-lethal weaponry. Also, not only do tazers have ridiculously shitty range, they don't work half the time because the prog doesn't reach the skin or a malfunction, or...well..there are a ton of reasons that tazers are never a good choice.emeraldrafael said:
I'd agree that they should have let the paramedics in, though...but more importantly, the man survived for just over an hour after being shot sixty times. The hell? I know that bullet wounds aren't nearly as lethal as portrayed in the media, but SIXTY TIMES?
Edit: I focused a bit too much on tazers, but as a Police Officer Trainee, I can say that non-lethal weapons very often...aren't.
Yeah, I don't blame them for shooting. But, if the article is accurate, their handling of the situation after that is terrible. I hope to see some demotions.GreatTeacherCAW said:
What a mess... I can see where the police are coming from; if they encounter someone pointing an assault rifle at them, especially in a hostile environment, they're pretty justified in shooting... but shouldn't that guy have been aware that it was the police? Something doesn't add up.
On the issue of medical attention, they really should have gotten him seen to sooner, but it's pretty much a moot point after what he was hit with.
On the issue of medical attention, they really should have gotten him seen to sooner, but it's pretty much a moot point after what he was hit with.
Keep in mind that SWAT was almost certainly armed with automatic weapons (sub-machine guns), and that there was more than one officer involved in the shooting. And automatic weapons can burn through ammo pretty fast.rednose1 said:
Also, if the SWAT team believed that they were facing a drug trafficker armed with an assault rifle, stunning (via tear gas or Tazer) is not going to be the top priority.
Am I wrong for assuming SWAT generally used non-lethal weapons? Also you think that the police doing such a large operation to so many homes they would do a bit of research or something first.
From the article, I would assume the situation was thus:Zakarath said:
Man and his family are either upstairs or in a room near the stairs (Probably a den). SWAT tries to break his door down (Since they were told it was a marijuana thing, it would be a raid so no sirens, knocking, or any kind of warning.) SWAT starts breaking the door down, the guy tells his family to get into the closet and he gets his rifle from wherever he kept it (Probably his bedroom) while SWAT searches the first floor. After finding it empty, a few officers move upstairs where Guerena is waiting at the end of the hall. He waves the rifle at the SWAT officers without realizing who they are (It was established that the hallway was long and dark, and SWAT uniforms are black). The SWAT Officers mistake Guerena as a hostile and open fire.
That's just how I'm assuming it went down, though.
SWAT aren't the same as Riot. SWAT generally use all lethal weaponry for their operations with the exception of tear gas and flashbangs for entry.jumjalalabash said:
Like I said, this could have all be avoided if the SWAT just said hey, sup? But yeah, I get that not all non lethal weapons stay non lethal, but there were still weapons that they could have used, techniques or something. I mean, this was Pot trafficing, this wasnt a hostage situation, this wasnt a school shooting, this wasnt any of that.Kopikatsu said:
When its one guy (based on what they were trying to stop) and an ex military man at that, I think you can question it. As SWAT you're supposed to take in everything, and there are many things wrong with the picture they either missed (and thus did their job poorly) or ignored (and thus just suck in general as human beings and felt a bit itchy to shoot).
I"m not saying SWAT's bad. Police do it to from time to time, the Military, pretty much any branch of any level does. And I get it, protocol and all calls for their actions, cause of where the guy was. Just this was a poorly handled incident where something in at least one of the SWAT officer's heads should have went off.
especially with that i wont let the paramedic touch him for an hour mentality they were holding.
... but whatever, i'll lose wathever argument this develops into I'ms ure. its just my opinion.
oops is all that can be said
SWAT was there for a good reason
The marine was engaging a perceived threat with only limited information
SWAT engaged as per their training and standard doctrine
A dozen MP5s will beat a single AR-15 99.99% of the time
And after how many times he was hit it wouldnt have mattered if they got Dr. House to him, he still would have died. The human body already has a certain amount of needed holes in it and can usually tolerate a few extras albeit uncomfortably but 60? It's hard to maintain things like vascular functions when you've been reduced to a wiggly bolognese sauce.
Sad story.
SWAT was there for a good reason
The marine was engaging a perceived threat with only limited information
SWAT engaged as per their training and standard doctrine
A dozen MP5s will beat a single AR-15 99.99% of the time
And after how many times he was hit it wouldnt have mattered if they got Dr. House to him, he still would have died. The human body already has a certain amount of needed holes in it and can usually tolerate a few extras albeit uncomfortably but 60? It's hard to maintain things like vascular functions when you've been reduced to a wiggly bolognese sauce.
Sad story.
Well there's a few possibilities.Zakarath said:
In the article they suggest he thought they were home invaders. He told his wife and child to go hide, and went to meet them with his rifle, with its safety still on. Earlier that year his wife's relatives had been killed in a home invasion. If they executed a "no-knock" warrant they would not have identified themselves, so as to have the element of surprise.
The police say that there were indeed police sirens and things of that sort. None of his neighbors claim to have heard any sirens, and Jose Guerena was sleeping at the time after working a graveyard shift, so if his neighbors didn't hear any sirens, it's quite likely he didn't either.
Or the claim of there being any sirens is simply false.
Nothing illegal was found in the raid, and no arrest would have been made had the shooting not occured, yet they released a statement saying they found exactly what they expected in his home, which is guns and body armor. (Not exactly an uncommon thing for an ex-marine in Arizona)
So yea, something fucked up went on.