Poll: Ex-marine shot at 70 times hit atleast 60 bleeds out because SWAT team wouldn't let paramedic's in

[Dirty Hipsters]

A few thoughts came to mind as I was reading this:

1. This wouldn't have happened if they legalized marijuana already.

2. The police were completely justified in shooting at the guy considering he was pointing a weapon at them.

3. The police should have given paramedics access to him, and it's completely criminal that they didn't, but I don't think it would have made any difference considering he was hit with 60 bullets. There was no way he was going to recover from that, no matter how fast the paramedics got to him.

4. Man, what a tragedy. Not only is a completely innocent man dead, a patriot no less who served his country, but a bunch of cops are probably going to lose their jobs over this. There doesn't seem to be any kind of clear right or wrong here. After all, the guy was just defending his house, and the officers were just protecting themselves from what they thought was a viable threat. It is really bad though that paramedics weren't given access to the man, that's where my good will and sympathy toward the police ends on this matter. Mistakes happen, sometimes really bad mistakes happen for no reason, but the way they acted after the event is totally inexcusable.

 

[Kopikatsu]

SWAT are definitely int he wrong here, regardless of if he was armed or not. You're tellingm e you couldnt have stunned him? And you wouldnt let him see Paramedics? What was he going to do, gut one and use the guy's intestines as a garrote? Oh well, another fatherless young child, another young man's life gone, and another screw up that could have been handled better if five seconds would have been taken to just say hi, whats up.

Stun him...with what? He was at the end of a long, dark hallway and armed with a rifle. Besides, SWAT doesn't generally carry non-lethal weaponry. Also, not only do tazers have ridiculously shitty range, they don't work half the time because the prog doesn't reach the skin or a malfunction, or...well..there are a ton of reasons that tazers are never a good choice.

I'd agree that they should have let the paramedics in, though...but more importantly, the man survived for just over an hour after being shot sixty times. The hell? I know that bullet wounds aren't nearly as lethal as portrayed in the media, but SIXTY TIMES?

Edit: I focused a bit too much on tazers, but as a Police Officer Trainee, non-lethal weapons very often...aren't.

Like I said, this could have all be avoided if the SWAT just said hey, sup? But yeah, I get that not all non lethal weapons stay non lethal, but there were still weapons that they could have used, techniques or something. I mean, this was Pot trafficing, this wasnt a hostage situation, this wasnt a school shooting, this wasnt any of that.

When its one guy (based on what they were trying to stop) and an ex military man at that, I think you can question it. As SWAT you're supposed to take in everything, and there are many things wrong with the picture they either missed (and thus did their job poorly) or ignored (and thus just suck in general as human beings and felt a bit itchy to shoot).

I"m not saying SWAT's bad. Police do it to from time to time, the Military, pretty much any branch of any level does. And I get it, protocol and all calls for their actions, cause of where the guy was. Just this was a poorly handled incident where something in at least one of the SWAT officer's heads should have went off.

especially with that i wont let the paramedic touch him for an hour mentality they were holding.

... but whatever, i'll lose wathever argument this develops into I'ms ure. its just my opinion.

Guerena was armed and threatening the Officers, so they didn't really have time/a chance to say "'SUP HOMEY?". I'm sure that he didn't realize it was SWAT as opposed to robbers or something, but he acted aggressively towards people who were armed and ready for a firefight. That doesn't win you any 'survival points'. Also, yes, it was drug trafficking. Most drug dealers are armed, and try to escape/go out fighting for whatever reason, so that's probably why they were so ready to gun him down.

Considering that Jose Guerena has a Mexican name...I can probably safely assume that some kind of racial profiling went into the accident that caused SWAT to break into his house instead of the right one. (If it indeed was the wrong house. It may have been the right house. Whichever. Not saying that it's right or wrong, but racial profiling is definitely a thing.)

But...I'd agree that the situation was kind of handled poorly. I'm going to assume (Again, this is a guess on my part) the reason they held up the paramedics is because he was under suspicion of drug trafficking and was armed with a AR-15. (I don't think AR-15's are legal. Actually, I'm almost certain they aren't. Most drug dealers pack serious heat, so there would be another strike against Guerena.)

Police don't take kindly to pedophiles and drug dealers. They really don't.

 

[twistedmic]

Or the claim of there being any sirens is simply false.


So yea, something fucked up went on.

And it's completely impossible that the neighbors are lying about not hearing any sirens? Maybe most of the neighbors hate law enforcement officers (which seems to be a very common thing lately) and want to get them in trouble/paint them as completely wrong and evil.

 

[thelonewolf266]

And this is why I don't understand all the people on all the threads about guns that think being able to legally own a gun is a good idea.If it was illegal to own a gun they would never have had to shoot him because they thought he was a threat.That said I don't know why they didn't let paramedics in that clearly was a horrible thing to do.Though I doubt his chances of survival would be high if he had been shot 60 times.
Once again proof that more guns does not make a country safer.

You're an idiot. Please never run for public office.

Best case scenario is the SWAT members in question lose their badges, the lieutenant in charge of the assault is busted down so low he'll be mopping toilets, and the chief of police is public ally humiliated.

But none of that will happen because Arizona is a garbage state.

Could you please explain why you think I'm an idiot rather than just saying it.Also why would you say never run for public office what makes you think that's one of my ambitions?

 

[Thamous]

SWAT are definitely int he wrong here, regardless of if he was armed or not. You're tellingm e you couldnt have stunned him? And you wouldnt let him see Paramedics? What was he going to do, gut one and use the guy's intestines as a garrote? Oh well, another fatherless young child, another young man's life gone, and another screw up that could have been handled better if five seconds would have been taken to just say hi, whats up.

Stun him...with what? He was at the end of a long, dark hallway and armed with a rifle. Besides, SWAT doesn't generally carry non-lethal weaponry. Also, not only do tazers have ridiculously shitty range, they don't work half the time because the prog doesn't reach the skin or a malfunction, or...well..there are a ton of reasons that tazers are never a good choice.

I'd agree that they should have let the paramedics in, though...but more importantly, the man survived for just over an hour after being shot sixty times. The hell? I know that bullet wounds aren't nearly as lethal as portrayed in the media, but SIXTY TIMES?

Edit: I focused a bit too much on tazers, but as a Police Officer Trainee, non-lethal weapons very often...aren't.

Like I said, this could have all be avoided if the SWAT just said hey, sup? But yeah, I get that not all non lethal weapons stay non lethal, but there were still weapons that they could have used, techniques or something. I mean, this was Pot trafficing, this wasnt a hostage situation, this wasnt a school shooting, this wasnt any of that.

When its one guy (based on what they were trying to stop) and an ex military man at that, I think you can question it. As SWAT you're supposed to take in everything, and there are many things wrong with the picture they either missed (and thus did their job poorly) or ignored (and thus just suck in general as human beings and felt a bit itchy to shoot).

I"m not saying SWAT's bad. Police do it to from time to time, the Military, pretty much any branch of any level does. And I get it, protocol and all calls for their actions, cause of where the guy was. Just this was a poorly handled incident where something in at least one of the SWAT officer's heads should have went off.

especially with that i wont let the paramedic touch him for an hour mentality they were holding.

... but whatever, i'll lose wathever argument this develops into I'ms ure. its just my opinion.

Guerena was armed and threatening the Officers, so they didn't really have time/a chance to say "'SUP HOMEY?". I'm sure that he didn't realize it was SWAT as opposed to robbers or something, but he acted aggressively towards people who were armed and ready for a firefight. That doesn't win you any 'survival points'. Also, yes, it was drug trafficking. Most drug dealers are armed, and try to escape/go out fighting for whatever reason, so that's probably why they were so ready to gun him down.

Considering that Jose Guerena has a Mexican name...I can probably safely assume that some kind of racial profiling went into the accident that caused SWAT to break into his house instead of the right one. (If it indeed was the wrong house. It may have been the right house. Whichever.)

But...I'd agree that the situation was kind of handled poorly. I'm going to assume (Again, this is a guess on my part) the reason they held up the paramedics is because he was under suspicion of drug trafficking and was armed with a AR-15. (I don't think AR-15's are legal. Actually, I'm almost certain they aren't.)

Police don't take kindly to pedophiles and drug dealers. They really don't.

Almost all states allow for the legal purchase of a semi-automatic AR-15 some requiring a license. Just for future reference.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Or the claim of there being any sirens is simply false.


So yea, something fucked up went on.

And it's completely impossible that the neighbors are lying about not hearing any sirens? Maybe most of the neighbors hate law enforcement officers (which seems to be a very common thing lately) and want to get them in trouble/paint them as completely wrong and evil.

They probably didn't hear any sirens. If it was about marijuana trafficking, then it would have been a raid. They don't use sirens in a raid, nor do they announce their presence. (You know, Police generally knock on the door and yell 'POLICE, OPEN UP!'. Officers on a raid don't do that, they just kick/bust/blow the door down.)

 

[Glerken]

Or the claim of there being any sirens is simply false.


So yea, something fucked up went on.

And it's completely impossible that the neighbors are lying about not hearing any sirens? Maybe most of the neighbors hate law enforcement officers (which seems to be a very common thing lately) and want to get them in trouble/paint them as completely wrong and evil.

It's possible I suppose.
All of his neighbors may hate law enforcement.

We have no way of knowing that though, I was trying to make as few assumptions as possible.

 

[Gaiseric]

Guerena was armed and threatening the Officers, so they didn't really have time/a chance to say "'SUP HOMEY?".

I think he's saying they could have announced themselves and knocked on the door before entering the home instead of busting in scaring the crap out of him(which if someone did at my house I would also grab my gun).

 

[William MacKay]

oh fucks sake. why did they decide 'lets burst in unannounced on a marine, armed. this wont end violently, especially seeing as he has a wife and four-year-old son in the house.' and why is he allowed to have the gun for protection if he gets shot by the police for HOLDING it for that reason? and did they even have evidence?

 

[Summerstorm]

HOLY SHIT.

A few questions:

1. Do you REALLY need to break down doors and mow your way into houses with several SWAT-Teams to LOOK for some drugs?

2. I get that if someone appears armed (with something REALLY dangerous as well) you might get trigger happy... but seriously, multiple shots of multiple people. Aren't those guys trained to quickly take someone down? Like two guys both shoot a small burst into the legs, or someone with a taser fires or something? 70 shots in 7 seconds? Mostly all hits? What the HELL? What is this, did they expect him to regenerate the damage?

3. WHY does everybody in america has got a fucking ASSAULT RIFLE at home?

4. So the police LIED about all that, and switched stories multiple times? This should be a carrer-killer for all involved and prison for a lot of people too i guess.

 

[WolfThomas]

I wouldn't blame the SWAT for the shooting, they went of the info they were given, that there was an armed drug dealer, they saw a guy with an assault rifle, therefore they shot him. Whoever did the investigation, issued the warrant etc. They're the one who made the mistake. As for the paramedics, well they should have been allowed to treat him once the house was clear, but it probably wouldn't have helped.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Guerena was armed and threatening the Officers, so they didn't really have time/a chance to say "'SUP HOMEY?".

I think he's saying they could have announced themselves and knocked on the door before entering the home instead of busting in scaring the crap out of him(which if someone did at my house I would also grab my gun).

oh fucks sake. why did they decide 'lets burst in unannounced on a marine, armed. this wont end violently, especially seeing as he has a wife and four-year-old son in the house.' and why is he allowed to have the gun for protection if he gets shot by the police for HOLDING it for that reason? and did they even have evidence?

Gah...this will probably be the fifth time that I've said this, but since Guerena was under suspicion of drug trafficking, SWAT would have been conducting a raid. SWAT doesn't use sirens/announce their presence during a raid...that would invalidate the entire point of a raid.

Edit: SWAT didn't know who was in the house, if anyone. It was time for the raid, so they conducted it.

 

[ShadowAurora]

He was waving a AR-15 at police offers. Of course he was shot 60 times. It is also extremely unsurprising that this took place in Tucson, Arizona. NOTHING GOOD ever happens in Arizona, especially Tucson. Tucson makes you not believe in God.

you don't need Tucson for that but anyways fuck America i can't wait to get out

 

[Gaiseric]

snip

I was just trying to shed some light on what I think he meant.

I understand what you're saying. I just don't agree with how the situation was handled. But that's just my opinion and I'm not a cop so I've never been in that situation.

 

[Redfefnir]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak&feature=player_embedded

Helmetcam footage (if you didn't already see it)

I think this is horrendous in both situations. How could the cops not know there was a kid in there? If they knew it was a drug house wouldn't know know there was also a wife and a kid there too?

Also, what sickens me is not the reactionary fire, it's the SWAT officer that backs up after the shooting starts, pulls out his pistol, and starts firing down the hallway. his last shot being 5 seconds after the others stopped shooting. Clearly he just wanted to put bullets down range.

If someone pointed a gun at me, as a SWAT officer, I would clearly shoot.

If my wife just yelled there were men with Guns entering the house, whereas said wife's relatives were murdered along with their children inside their own home, I would grab my gun and protect my family.

It's a shitty situation either way. And with paramedics, as a Firefighter I can honestly say that I can understand their actions from a paper point of view, but from the reality point of view, Paramedics have gone into harder conditions under actual threats and did their jobs. Though, to be fair again, with the reality... You're not saving someone from 35 shots. (autopsy report says 35 wounds)

 

[geldonyetich]

As the SWAT team forced its way into his home, Guerena, a former Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, armed himself with his AR-15 rifle and told his wife and son to hide in a closet. As the officers entered, Guerena confronted them from the far end of a long, dark hallway.

Yeah, I'd say this more or less is signing your own death warrant.

Honestly, if you got hit with 60 bullets, I don't think a paramedic's going to be able to do much for you anyway. It'd probably take them at least an hour just trying to find all the holes. Even then, if you managed to survive the internal organ hemmorhaging, succumbing to lead poisoning is fairly inevitable.

Anywho, tragic loss of life, very regrettable.

This being an Internet forum, I think the real agenda here is to encourage legalization of MJ.

 

[Gladiateher]

This is why I don't like america's police system. Don't they have to show you a warrent to get into your damned house? Don't they have to pronouce themselves as Police? I mean if someone just randomly bashed into my house, I'd blow them away, Cops, Robbers, Fourign Invaders, anyone.

Did the guy even fire his gun?

Don't they have to fire at you first in War with that Jeneva convintion crap? Does this apply to police?

And think, THIS WAS BECAUSE OF SUSPECTED WEED TRAFFICING. I could understand Cocain, but Majiuana? I disagree with using it, but still, they took that a little far.

I hope all of those cops lose there jobs, or better yet, lets redo the entire police system (Atleast for my city, because we've got a lot of problems) Get guys from the military at street corners, your not likely to trafic drugs if there is a guy with an assault rifle at every turn.

I actually agree with you for the most part, but I feel the need to point out that no the guy did not fire his gun the safety was still on, no you don't have to wait until your fired on to fire back, if that were true there would be no war would there? and don't underestimate weed dealers. They're criminals just the same and more than one cop has lost his life dealing with weed trafficers. I do agree with you though that these police officers should all be fired. They should have done their research on the house they were raiding. It would have been easy since the guy had a military background and for that reason was definitely on file.

The thing that really pisses me right the fuck off is that they let him bleed out. Even if it were a hardened criminal that they shot the paramedics should have been sent in to tend to him. Even criminals still deserve that.

 

[Bon_Clay]

If you bust into someones home without showing them a warrant or announcing you are police they should have a right to shoot you in the face as if you were any other home invader. I'm so sick of this shit happening. Everyone involved, especially the people who issued the warrants, should go to jail for murder or at least be fired and fined heavily. Plenty of extra charges for grief and suffering of the wife and kid.

Gah...this will probably be the fifth time that I've said this, but since Guerena was under suspicion of drug trafficking, SWAT would have been conducting a raid. SWAT doesn't use sirens/announce their presence during a raid...that would invalidate the entire point of a raid.

Edit: SWAT didn't know who was in the house, if anyone. It was time for the raid, so they conducted it.

Their failure to properly assess the situation isn't his fault. If they were sure enough drugs were in there, they should also find out who is home and if they own weapons.

Drug raids shouldn't work like that, they are looking for drugs not a murderer on the loose. Drugs don't get up and run away when you call out to them. And how damn hard is it to surround a house with how many people they brought with them. Put all that fire power outside in case someone tries to run, then you have some actual justification to consider using such extreme force.

 

[bl4ckh4wk64]

Isn't this a breach of an amendment? The search and seizure one...