Poll: Father in rural Germany finds his young son likes to wear dresses; does the same to show solidarity.

[Phasmal]

It would be deeply saddening if his mother was raising him to become the type of man who wears dresses. Although, this is outside the realm of possibility since she despises effeminacy in males as much as I do.

Effeminate males? You mean gay men? You realise that thats just how they are born, and it has exactly nothing to do with what clothes you put them in.

And as for your earlier comment about "men being men and women being women", I'm going to guess you've never spoken to a trans person in your life. People are people. Men can be women. Women can be men. We are not binary.

If he is referring to gay men then I suppose I am obligated to be at least slightly offended, but I'll deal with that later. Anyways, while it is indeed possible that there are more than two genders and gender roles and those are social constructions. Biological sex is indeed binary if at the very least in terms of chromosomal sex: we have an "X" chromosome for female but if a "Y" chromosome is introduced then it is male, but as far as I know a "Z" chromosome that denotes a third sex does not exist.

Are you forgetting intersex people?
People with XXY?
People being born intersex or with ambiguious genitals is not that uncommon. Wikipedia says 1% of live births.

 

[Rascarin]

If he is referring to gay men then I suppose I am obligated to be at least slightly offended, but I'll deal with that later. Anyways, while it is indeed possible that there are more than two genders and gender roles and those are social constructions. Biological sex is indeed binary if at the very least in terms of chromosomal sex: we have an "X" chromosome for female but if a "Y" chromosome is introduced then it is male, but as far as I know a "Z" chromosome that denotes a third sex does not exist.

Actually, there are more than two sexes. Classic XX and XY. There's also YY, XXY, XXX, XXYY, XO...

This page also goes into some detail on the different physical and mental manifestations of sex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Obviously, yes in "normal" (and i hate using that word) circumstances you only get the classic two. But neither sex or gender are binary. I know a woman who is XO, and my fiance is trans, as well as having several other trans friends. Gender and sex binaries and their enforcement are harmful.

 

[CMDDarkblade]

If he is referring to gay men then I suppose I am obligated to be at least slightly offended, but I'll deal with that later. Anyways, while it is indeed possible that there are more than two genders and gender roles and those are social constructions. Biological sex is indeed binary if at the very least in terms of chromosomal sex: we have an "X" chromosome for female but if a "Y" chromosome is introduced then it is male, but as far as I know a "Z" chromosome that denotes a third sex does not exist.

Are you forgetting intersex people?
People with XXY?
People being born intersex or with ambiguious genitals is not that uncommon. Wikipedia says 1% of live births.

Yes, but that is still using the same two sex chromosomes. It doesn't matter what combination of "X"s and "Y"s a person has, a person is biologically female only if they have a "X" chromosome and nothing else. A person that has an "Y" chromosome is biologically male no matter how many "X" chromosomes they have. Therefore, the third sex would be someone who has a "Z" chromosome no matter how "X" or "Y" chromosomes they have.

 

[CMDDarkblade]

Actually, there are more than two sexes. Classic XX and XY. There's also YY, XXY, XXX, XXYY, XO...

This page also goes into some detail on the different physical and mental manifestations of sex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Obviously, yes in "normal" (and i hate using that word) circumstances you only get the classic two. But neither sex or gender are binary. I know a woman who is XO, and my fiance is trans, as well as having several other trans friends. Gender and sex binaries and their enforcement are harmful.

I'm aware that there are different combinations of "X" and "Y" and that the phenotype expression can get mutated resulting in intersex people, but intersex people are still between two biological sexes on a spectrum. A true third sex (and I don't mean to use that term pejoratively or to dehumanize intersex people) needs a unique third chromosome: "Z", "W", "V", whatever it's called, in addition to "X" and "Y" to make a distinct third sex that can be clearly identified along side male and female.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

How is being effeminate a bad thing in the first place? So some guys like pretty things and are genuinely demure, so what? How's that anyone else's issue?

 

[JeffBergGold]

I don't see a connection between those things. How does putting on a dress make you a woman, and how can you achieve a balance by rigidly enforcing different clothing for another gender?

I never stated putting on a dress makes one a woman. Men who have a desire to wear female clothing are usually effeminate.

Heck, latin dancing shoes for men often have heels.

Boots also have heels. I never equivocated heels to dresses.

Do you have any idea how sexy women find it when you're good enough to purchase dedicated shoes for it?

Appeal to approval? Maybe for a shoe fetishist most women dont find male dance shoe purchases sexually arousing.

Same for my sport. Kickboxing shorts are wide as can be,

I find it strange you can equivocate wide shorts to a dress. Please don't be upset if I dismiss this comparison.

only slightly bifurcated but for the rest identical to a skirt

As a person who has participated in kickboxing and worn kickboxing shorts I can confirm this is a blatant untruth.

to provide you with as much movement space as possible because tight shorts don't work for midkicks and highkicks.

Also a blatant untruth. I've seen everything from roundhouses to sbk's delivered in restrictive clothing.

Does that make the sport feminine?

Does what make the sport feminine? Between the red herrings strawmen and logical leaps I kinda got lost on how you came to this conclusion. Can you clarify for me?

 

[Froggy Slayer]

If he is referring to gay men then I suppose I am obligated to be at least slightly offended, but I'll deal with that later. Anyways, while it is indeed possible that there are more than two genders and gender roles and those are social constructions. Biological sex is indeed binary if at the very least in terms of chromosomal sex: we have an "X" chromosome for female but if a "Y" chromosome is introduced then it is male, but as far as I know a "Z" chromosome that denotes a third sex does not exist.

Actually, there are more than two sexes. Classic XX and XY. There's also YY, XXY, XXX, XXYY, XO...

This page also goes into some detail on the different physical and mental manifestations of sex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Obviously, yes in "normal" (and i hate using that word) circumstances you only get the classic two. But neither sex or gender are binary. I know a woman who is XO, and my fiance is trans, as well as having several other trans friends. Gender and sex binaries and their enforcement are harmful.

I followed the link, and I now know what a pegina looks like. Kind of like the ovipositor from a facehugger, if anyone is wondering; probably where Giger got the inspiration.

Oh, and you shouldn't be so leery about using the term 'normal'. Having definite male or female genitalia is the norm, just as heterosexuality is the norm. Does that mean that intersex people or homosexuals should be persecuted for their abnormality? Hell no! It makes you different, and as they say, variety is the spice of life.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

If he is referring to gay men then I suppose I am obligated to be at least slightly offended, but I'll deal with that later. Anyways, while it is indeed possible that there are more than two genders and gender roles and those are social constructions. Biological sex is indeed binary if at the very least in terms of chromosomal sex: we have an "X" chromosome for female but if a "Y" chromosome is introduced then it is male, but as far as I know a "Z" chromosome that denotes a third sex does not exist.

Actually, there are more than two sexes. Classic XX and XY. There's also YY, XXY, XXX, XXYY, XO...

This page also goes into some detail on the different physical and mental manifestations of sex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Obviously, yes in "normal" (and i hate using that word) circumstances you only get the classic two. But neither sex or gender are binary. I know a woman who is XO, and my fiance is trans, as well as having several other trans friends. Gender and sex binaries and their enforcement are harmful.

There may all be variations of XX and XY but there are still only men and women, unless you know of a third group of humans that have neither a penis or vagina and reproduce sexually or asexually

 

[Rainboq]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

 

[JeffBergGold]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

 

[Rainboq]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

I'm tempted to ask why again, but I shan't because that is infinitely nested. Instead I'll ask how.

 

[JeffBergGold]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

I'm tempted to ask why again, but I shan't because that is infinitely nested. Instead I'll ask how.

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

As a fairly effeminate male (I mean, actually effeminate, not the kind of faux "girly" that some people on this forum claim to be) I am inclined to agree on some level that it is socially influenced. I have a trans father, (in other words I basically have two mums) as a result I never had a strong father figure. I think that's probably why I turned out quite feminine.

But I have to ask, why does it matter? I'm quite comfortable in my male body, I don't have an issue with social situations or dating women, I function perfectly well in society. Okay, so I don't wear dresses, and always wear male (or unisex) clothing, but there is a lot more to gender norms than just how people dress. You seem to be saying all men should be typically masculine and all women should be typically feminine. If I'm wrong, correct me, but if I'm right, why is that the case? What's so important about maintaining the status quo? Because this change is uncomfortable to you?

You say people are trying to be something they are not, that certainly isn't the case. a lot of trans people are actually born essentially with the brain of the other gender, as my father was. This is a real scientific/medical fact, but I don't have any links. If you need sources I'll do some research.

 

[axlryder]

Of course the kid should be allowed to wear dresses. Clothing double standards piss me off anyway.

 

[axlryder]

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

As a fairly effeminate male (I mean, actually effeminate, not the kind of faux "girly" that some people on this forum claim to be) I am inclined to agree on some level that it is socially influenced. I have a trans father, (in other words I basically have two mums) as a result I never had a strong father figure. I think that's probably why I turned out quite feminine.

But I have to ask, why does it matter? I'm quite comfortable in my male body, I don't have an issue with social situations or dating women, I function perfectly well in society. Okay, so I don't wear dresses, and always wear male (or unisex) clothing, but there is a lot more to gender norms than just how people dress. You seem to be saying all men should be typically masculine and all women should be typically feminine. If I'm wrong, correct me, but if I'm right, why is that the case? What's so important about maintaining the status quo? Because this change is uncomfortable to you?

You say people are trying to be something they are not, that certainly isn't the case. a lot of trans people are actually born essentially with the brain of the other gender, as my father was. This is a real scientific/medical fact, but I don't have any links. If you need sources I'll do some research.

Don't bother doing the research. Just find an old trans debate thread, there'll be plenty of links in those. I doubt he disagrees with you anyway, he already acknowledged the existence of "anomalies".

 

[Rainboq]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

I'm tempted to ask why again, but I shan't because that is infinitely nested. Instead I'll ask how.

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

Not necessarily, the world is made of all different types of people, and every single person is completely different. So really what you're saying is that every person has their strengths. The culture you have been raised in may tell you that men and women are good at certain things, but look into the work place and the classroom, men and women are doing the same jobs now, its just a matter of time until the majority of work places see around a 50/50 split in all roles. And I'm sorry, you can't ignore a particular demographic because it doesn't fit your theory. That'd be like a scientist ignoring results that contradicted their theory just to keep the theory valid, one can not simply do that.

 

[JeffBergGold]

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

As a fairly effeminate male (I mean, actually effeminate, not the kind of faux "girly" that some people on this forum claim to be) I am inclined to agree on some level that it is socially influenced. I have a trans father, (in other words I basically have two mums) as a result I never had a strong father figure. I think that's probably why I turned out quite feminine.

But I have to ask, why does it matter? I'm quite comfortable in my male body, I don't have an issue with social situations or dating women, I function perfectly well in society. Okay, so I don't wear dresses, and always wear male (or unisex) clothing, but there is a lot more to gender norms than just how people dress. You seem to be saying all men should be typically masculine and all women should be typically feminine. If I'm wrong, correct me, but if I'm right, why is that the case? What's so important about maintaining the status quo? Because this change is uncomfortable to you?

You say people are trying to be something they are not, that certainly isn't the case. a lot of trans people are actually born essentially with the brain of the other gender, as my father was. This is a real scientific/medical fact, but I don't have any links. If you need sources I'll do some research.

I won't pretend to be well versed in the politics of people with the trans orientation. I am really clueless on the topic. That being stated I'm talking about normal hetero men who exhibit feminine qualities. I find it rather repulsive, although I do have male friends who are feminine I often find myself thinking poorly of them due to their femininity(being overly emotional, appealing to the herd, being security seeking, insecure, feeling ashamed, gossiping etc.).

You hit the nail squarely when you said it makes me uncomfortable. Seeing that little kid in a dress makes me feel disgusted. Seeing the man in the dress makes me feel disgusted. I know it shouldn't! but it does. It makes me feel as if males are being squelched and marginalized. I know it sounds crazy but other than my circle of friends I almost encounter nothing but weak males! It scares me it makes me feel as if me and more normal male friends are abnormal since so many guys are feminine and weak.


Trans I would have to file under anomalies, I respect if someones brain anatomically causes them to be that way. I don't believe that is the norm however.

TL;DR


Idk dude it makes me uncomfortable. I cant give you a straight answer. I don't want to hurt feminine guys or anything like that. They just make me feel uncomfortable and I feel there are way too many of them.

 

[Rainboq]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

I'm tempted to ask why again, but I shan't because that is infinitely nested. Instead I'll ask how.

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

Not necessarily, the world is made of all different types of people, and every single person is completely different. So really what you're saying is that every person has their strengths. The culture you have been raised in may tell you that men and women are good at certain things, but look into the work place and the classroom, men and women are doing the same jobs now, its just a matter of time until the majority of work places see around a 50/50 split in all roles. And I'm sorry, you can't ignore a particular demographic because it doesn't fit your theory. That'd be like a scientist ignoring results that contradicted their theory just to keep the theory valid, one can not simply do that.

There's actually a group of trans people on the Escapist dedicated to answering questions about the trans community. Linky [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/Transgender-Open-Group]

 

[JeffBergGold]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

I'm tempted to ask why again, but I shan't because that is infinitely nested. Instead I'll ask how.

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

Not necessarily, the world is made of all different types of people, and every single person is completely different. So really what you're saying is that every person has their strengths. The culture you have been raised in may tell you that men and women are good at certain things, but look into the work place and the classroom, men and women are doing the same jobs now, its just a matter of time until the majority of work places see around a 50/50 split in all roles. And I'm sorry, you can't ignore a particular demographic because it doesn't fit your theory. That'd be like a scientist ignoring results that contradicted their theory just to keep the theory valid, one can not simply do that.

So you're implying that if we replace all the men in the military with women the result would be inconsequential?

Being able to perform a job and being proficient at it are two different things. I CAN be a Doula does that mean I can perform the job as well as a woman? No, it doesn't.

 

[Rainboq]

-snip-

Based on what you said here, I think I understand what you're getting at, but you're making a critical error. Masculinity, or the idea of it, is constantly in flux depending on the society and conditions. What you definition of masculinity is is actually defined as stoicism. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism]

Additionally, I'm sorry, but I take issue with the idea that not showing your emotions is harder than showing them. To show your emotions openly is to be publicly vulnerable. That said, being able to repress your emotions is an remarkable feat of self control, its just not a very useful one. See, the human mind evolved to express emotions. Repressing emotions, leads to a reflexive repression of all emotions, which leads to depression and as someone who has gone through some some episodes of clinical depression, that's not something I'd wish on anyone.