Poll: Father in rural Germany finds his young son likes to wear dresses; does the same to show solidarity.

[Rainboq]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

I'm tempted to ask why again, but I shan't because that is infinitely nested. Instead I'll ask how.

 

[JeffBergGold]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

I'm tempted to ask why again, but I shan't because that is infinitely nested. Instead I'll ask how.

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

As a fairly effeminate male (I mean, actually effeminate, not the kind of faux "girly" that some people on this forum claim to be) I am inclined to agree on some level that it is socially influenced. I have a trans father, (in other words I basically have two mums) as a result I never had a strong father figure. I think that's probably why I turned out quite feminine.

But I have to ask, why does it matter? I'm quite comfortable in my male body, I don't have an issue with social situations or dating women, I function perfectly well in society. Okay, so I don't wear dresses, and always wear male (or unisex) clothing, but there is a lot more to gender norms than just how people dress. You seem to be saying all men should be typically masculine and all women should be typically feminine. If I'm wrong, correct me, but if I'm right, why is that the case? What's so important about maintaining the status quo? Because this change is uncomfortable to you?

You say people are trying to be something they are not, that certainly isn't the case. a lot of trans people are actually born essentially with the brain of the other gender, as my father was. This is a real scientific/medical fact, but I don't have any links. If you need sources I'll do some research.

 

[axlryder]

Of course the kid should be allowed to wear dresses. Clothing double standards piss me off anyway.

 

[axlryder]

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

As a fairly effeminate male (I mean, actually effeminate, not the kind of faux "girly" that some people on this forum claim to be) I am inclined to agree on some level that it is socially influenced. I have a trans father, (in other words I basically have two mums) as a result I never had a strong father figure. I think that's probably why I turned out quite feminine.

But I have to ask, why does it matter? I'm quite comfortable in my male body, I don't have an issue with social situations or dating women, I function perfectly well in society. Okay, so I don't wear dresses, and always wear male (or unisex) clothing, but there is a lot more to gender norms than just how people dress. You seem to be saying all men should be typically masculine and all women should be typically feminine. If I'm wrong, correct me, but if I'm right, why is that the case? What's so important about maintaining the status quo? Because this change is uncomfortable to you?

You say people are trying to be something they are not, that certainly isn't the case. a lot of trans people are actually born essentially with the brain of the other gender, as my father was. This is a real scientific/medical fact, but I don't have any links. If you need sources I'll do some research.

Don't bother doing the research. Just find an old trans debate thread, there'll be plenty of links in those. I doubt he disagrees with you anyway, he already acknowledged the existence of "anomalies".

 

[Rainboq]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

I'm tempted to ask why again, but I shan't because that is infinitely nested. Instead I'll ask how.

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

Not necessarily, the world is made of all different types of people, and every single person is completely different. So really what you're saying is that every person has their strengths. The culture you have been raised in may tell you that men and women are good at certain things, but look into the work place and the classroom, men and women are doing the same jobs now, its just a matter of time until the majority of work places see around a 50/50 split in all roles. And I'm sorry, you can't ignore a particular demographic because it doesn't fit your theory. That'd be like a scientist ignoring results that contradicted their theory just to keep the theory valid, one can not simply do that.

 

[JeffBergGold]

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

As a fairly effeminate male (I mean, actually effeminate, not the kind of faux "girly" that some people on this forum claim to be) I am inclined to agree on some level that it is socially influenced. I have a trans father, (in other words I basically have two mums) as a result I never had a strong father figure. I think that's probably why I turned out quite feminine.

But I have to ask, why does it matter? I'm quite comfortable in my male body, I don't have an issue with social situations or dating women, I function perfectly well in society. Okay, so I don't wear dresses, and always wear male (or unisex) clothing, but there is a lot more to gender norms than just how people dress. You seem to be saying all men should be typically masculine and all women should be typically feminine. If I'm wrong, correct me, but if I'm right, why is that the case? What's so important about maintaining the status quo? Because this change is uncomfortable to you?

You say people are trying to be something they are not, that certainly isn't the case. a lot of trans people are actually born essentially with the brain of the other gender, as my father was. This is a real scientific/medical fact, but I don't have any links. If you need sources I'll do some research.

I won't pretend to be well versed in the politics of people with the trans orientation. I am really clueless on the topic. That being stated I'm talking about normal hetero men who exhibit feminine qualities. I find it rather repulsive, although I do have male friends who are feminine I often find myself thinking poorly of them due to their femininity(being overly emotional, appealing to the herd, being security seeking, insecure, feeling ashamed, gossiping etc.).

You hit the nail squarely when you said it makes me uncomfortable. Seeing that little kid in a dress makes me feel disgusted. Seeing the man in the dress makes me feel disgusted. I know it shouldn't! but it does. It makes me feel as if males are being squelched and marginalized. I know it sounds crazy but other than my circle of friends I almost encounter nothing but weak males! It scares me it makes me feel as if me and more normal male friends are abnormal since so many guys are feminine and weak.


Trans I would have to file under anomalies, I respect if someones brain anatomically causes them to be that way. I don't believe that is the norm however.

TL;DR


Idk dude it makes me uncomfortable. I cant give you a straight answer. I don't want to hurt feminine guys or anything like that. They just make me feel uncomfortable and I feel there are way too many of them.

 

[Rainboq]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

I'm tempted to ask why again, but I shan't because that is infinitely nested. Instead I'll ask how.

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

Not necessarily, the world is made of all different types of people, and every single person is completely different. So really what you're saying is that every person has their strengths. The culture you have been raised in may tell you that men and women are good at certain things, but look into the work place and the classroom, men and women are doing the same jobs now, its just a matter of time until the majority of work places see around a 50/50 split in all roles. And I'm sorry, you can't ignore a particular demographic because it doesn't fit your theory. That'd be like a scientist ignoring results that contradicted their theory just to keep the theory valid, one can not simply do that.

There's actually a group of trans people on the Escapist dedicated to answering questions about the trans community. Linky [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/Transgender-Open-Group]

 

[JeffBergGold]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

I'm tempted to ask why again, but I shan't because that is infinitely nested. Instead I'll ask how.

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

Not necessarily, the world is made of all different types of people, and every single person is completely different. So really what you're saying is that every person has their strengths. The culture you have been raised in may tell you that men and women are good at certain things, but look into the work place and the classroom, men and women are doing the same jobs now, its just a matter of time until the majority of work places see around a 50/50 split in all roles. And I'm sorry, you can't ignore a particular demographic because it doesn't fit your theory. That'd be like a scientist ignoring results that contradicted their theory just to keep the theory valid, one can not simply do that.

So you're implying that if we replace all the men in the military with women the result would be inconsequential?

Being able to perform a job and being proficient at it are two different things. I CAN be a Doula does that mean I can perform the job as well as a woman? No, it doesn't.

 

[Rainboq]

-snip-

Based on what you said here, I think I understand what you're getting at, but you're making a critical error. Masculinity, or the idea of it, is constantly in flux depending on the society and conditions. What you definition of masculinity is is actually defined as stoicism. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism]

Additionally, I'm sorry, but I take issue with the idea that not showing your emotions is harder than showing them. To show your emotions openly is to be publicly vulnerable. That said, being able to repress your emotions is an remarkable feat of self control, its just not a very useful one. See, the human mind evolved to express emotions. Repressing emotions, leads to a reflexive repression of all emotions, which leads to depression and as someone who has gone through some some episodes of clinical depression, that's not something I'd wish on anyone.

 

[Rainboq]

No way in hell would I let my son do that. Let it be known that I respect this man and what he is doing for his son. I just wouldn't do it personally. My son doesn't even have access to a dress. At least I would hope he doesn't.

Why wouldn't you want that? If you don't mind me asking.

Because I'm for men being men and women being women. There are enough effeminate males already, there needs to be a balance.

So you're for the upholding of the traditional, arbitrary gender boundaries? Why?

I believe the sexes are equal but different.

I'm tempted to ask why again, but I shan't because that is infinitely nested. Instead I'll ask how.

How are the sexes equal but different?

Men are better at some things than women.
Women are better at some things than men.

Both genders should play to their strengths instead of trying to be something they are not. I believe effeminacy in most males is socially and culturally influenced rather than biologically inherent of course there are anomalies but i'm not talking about those.

Not necessarily, the world is made of all different types of people, and every single person is completely different. So really what you're saying is that every person has their strengths. The culture you have been raised in may tell you that men and women are good at certain things, but look into the work place and the classroom, men and women are doing the same jobs now, its just a matter of time until the majority of work places see around a 50/50 split in all roles. And I'm sorry, you can't ignore a particular demographic because it doesn't fit your theory. That'd be like a scientist ignoring results that contradicted their theory just to keep the theory valid, one can not simply do that.

So you're implying that if we replace all the men in the military with women the result would be inconsequential?

Being able to perform a job and being proficient at it are two different things. I CAN be a Doula does that mean I can perform the job as well as a woman? No, it doesn't.

Why is that every time gender is brought up, the military comes up. Also, that's a straw man argument. What I'm saying is that every person has their strengths, and that there are women suited to life in the military, be they desk jockies or in the poor bloody infantry. Most commonwealth nations and European nations removed all restrictions on who could serve where and guess what? They're still extremely effective fighting forces.

 

[A.A.K]

cross dressing really does freak me the hell out, and yes I really hate drag queens when they're around me...

Honestly, people can do whatever the hell they want...dress however they want, act whoever they want and love whoever they want...Just don't do it with me, or around me.

So I have no idea how I'd handle my son if he was like that..

 

[Rainboq]

cross dressing really does freak me the hell out, and yes I really hate drag queens when they're around me...

Honestly, people can do whatever the hell they want...dress however they want, act whoever they want and love whoever they want...Just don't do it with me, or around me.

So I have no idea how I'd handle my son if he was like that..

Any idea why that is?

 

[JeffBergGold]

-snip-

Based on what you said here, I think I understand what you're getting at, but you're making a critical error. Masculinity, or the idea of it, is constantly in flux depending on the society and conditions. What you definition of masculinity is is actually defined as stoicism. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism]

Additionally, I'm sorry, but I take issue with the idea that not showing your emotions is harder than showing them. To show your emotions openly is to be publicly vulnerable. That said, being able to repress your emotions is an remarkable feat of self control, its just not a very useful one. See, the human mind evolved to express emotions. Repressing emotions, leads to a reflexive repression of all emotions, which leads to depression and as someone who has gone through some some episodes of clinical depression, that's not something I'd wish on anyone.

I'm not advocating the complete shutdown of emotions, but histrionic males and males who excessively display negative emotion. to me are really weird and weak it makes me feel embarrassed that they are even male. I know this sounds messed up, it's just how I think. I think emotional displays are okay if they are controlled and positive, extreme circumstances being an exception. I honestly cannot quantify why it bothers me so badly, I'd have to investigate to make it more clear. I can just say that it stimulates a terrible feeling in me.

I appreciate you being somewhat civil in all this. It's something I have to investigate further. Why do I hate femininity in men? I feel like they are killing nature the way it designed us to be. Idk man. You have made me reflect though, and just let it be known I don't disrespect those weird guys, other than friendly berations. I still treat them regularly but internally I think they are destroying humanity. even though I know thats not true.

 

[Rainboq]

-snip-

Based on what you said here, I think I understand what you're getting at, but you're making a critical error. Masculinity, or the idea of it, is constantly in flux depending on the society and conditions. What you definition of masculinity is is actually defined as stoicism. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism]

Additionally, I'm sorry, but I take issue with the idea that not showing your emotions is harder than showing them. To show your emotions openly is to be publicly vulnerable. That said, being able to repress your emotions is an remarkable feat of self control, its just not a very useful one. See, the human mind evolved to express emotions. Repressing emotions, leads to a reflexive repression of all emotions, which leads to depression and as someone who has gone through some some episodes of clinical depression, that's not something I'd wish on anyone.

I'm not advocating the complete shutdown of emotions, but histrionic males and males who excessively display negative emotion. to me are really weird and weak it makes me feel embarrassed that they are even male. I know this sounds messed up, it's just how I think. I think emotional displays are okay if they are controlled and positive, extreme circumstances being an exception. I honestly cannot quantify why it bothers me so badly, I'd have to investigate to make it more clear. I can just say that it stimulates a terrible feeling in me.

I appreciate you being somewhat civil in all this. It's something I have to investigate further. Why do I hate femininity in men? I feel like they are killing nature the way it designed us to be. Idk man. You have made me reflect though, and just let it be known I don't disrespect those weird guys, other than friendly berations. I still treat them regularly but internally I think they are destroying humanity. even though I know thats not true.

Don't worry about that feeling, its the feeling anyone gets when you feel like a deeply ingrained norm is being violated, everyone has it at some point.

On the topic of civility and reflection, I come from a background of philosophy and anthropology (despite being a com sci major, confusing, I know), so I don't aim to try and bludgeon my views into the heads of others. All I ever want to do is allow for introspection, because, to put it simply: "The Life Unexamined, is the Life unlived...." (Plato)

 

[CMDDarkblade]

-snip-

Based on what you said here, I think I understand what you're getting at, but you're making a critical error. Masculinity, or the idea of it, is constantly in flux depending on the society and conditions. What you definition of masculinity is is actually defined as stoicism. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism]

Additionally, I'm sorry, but I take issue with the idea that not showing your emotions is harder than showing them. To show your emotions openly is to be publicly vulnerable. That said, being able to repress your emotions is an remarkable feat of self control, its just not a very useful one. See, the human mind evolved to express emotions. Repressing emotions, leads to a reflexive repression of all emotions, which leads to depression and as someone who has gone through some some episodes of clinical depression, that's not something I'd wish on anyone.

I don't think that stoicism or subdued emotion necessarily leads to clinical depression. There's a difference between keeping your feelings and emotions to yourself and repressing them. I don't usually like to gush over things with overt enthusiasm; I prefer to admire things with a quiet sentimentality.

 

[Rainboq]

-snip-

Based on what you said here, I think I understand what you're getting at, but you're making a critical error. Masculinity, or the idea of it, is constantly in flux depending on the society and conditions. What you definition of masculinity is is actually defined as stoicism. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism]

Additionally, I'm sorry, but I take issue with the idea that not showing your emotions is harder than showing them. To show your emotions openly is to be publicly vulnerable. That said, being able to repress your emotions is an remarkable feat of self control, its just not a very useful one. See, the human mind evolved to express emotions. Repressing emotions, leads to a reflexive repression of all emotions, which leads to depression and as someone who has gone through some some episodes of clinical depression, that's not something I'd wish on anyone.

I don't think that stoicism or subdued emotion necessarily leads to clinical depression. There's a difference between keeping your feelings and emotions to yourself and repressing them. I don't usually like to gush over things with overt enthusiasm; I prefer to admire things with a quiet sentimentality.

It can, I wasn't imply causation, merely correlation if one gets a little over zealous about it. And you know what? That's how an introvert tends to appreciate things, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with introversion or doing that. I'm just saying that you probably shouldn't bottle everything up.

 

[CMDDarkblade]

I don't think that stoicism or subdued emotion necessarily leads to clinical depression. There's a difference between keeping your feelings and emotions to yourself and repressing them. I don't usually like to gush over things with overt enthusiasm; I prefer to admire things with a quiet sentimentality.

It can, I wasn't imply causation, merely correlation if one gets a little over zealous about it. And you know what? That's how an introvert tends to appreciate things, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with introversion or doing that. I'm just saying that you probably shouldn't bottle everything up.

Ha ha, no I'm not really an introvert, I'm actually a pretty gregarious person once you get to know me, that's just the way I like to appreciate art, music, film, and those kinds of things but I digress.

In a way I can understand what JeffBergGold is saying because as a gay guy I see a lot of those "flamboyant gays" as they are so often called. As far as masculinity goes I'm pretty average so nobody assumes my sexual orientation is anything other than straight unless I tell them, but the flamboyant ones can be spot a mile away. I think the problem is they get associated with the image of the "bratty teenage girl" who is overly emotional over trivial things and is reluctant to do any type of manual labor because it would mess up their looks or they would break a nail. It's the idea that those gay people are not only effeminate but the worse type of effeminate: an overly hormonal, childish, emotional teenage girl. So when straight guys see them, they see a bratty, effeminate person, but unlike teenage girls they don't want to sleep with them so they get annoyed and start hating them. At least that's my theory anyways.

 

[Insanity72]

Compromise and buy him a kilt

 

[Rainboq]

I don't think that stoicism or subdued emotion necessarily leads to clinical depression. There's a difference between keeping your feelings and emotions to yourself and repressing them. I don't usually like to gush over things with overt enthusiasm; I prefer to admire things with a quiet sentimentality.

It can, I wasn't imply causation, merely correlation if one gets a little over zealous about it. And you know what? That's how an introvert tends to appreciate things, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with introversion or doing that. I'm just saying that you probably shouldn't bottle everything up.

Ha ha, no I'm not really an introvert, I'm actually a pretty gregarious person once you get to know me, that's just the way I like to appreciate art, music, film, and those kinds of things but I digress.

In a way I can understand what JeffBergGold is saying because as a gay guy I see a lot of those "flamboyant gays" as they are so often called. As far as masculinity goes I'm pretty average so nobody assumes my sexual orientation is anything other than straight unless I tell them, but the flamboyant ones can be spot a mile away. I think the problem is they get associated with the image of the "bratty teenage girl" who is overly emotional over trivial things and is reluctant to do any type of manual labor because it would mess up their looks or they would break a nail. It's the idea that those gay people are not only effeminate but the worse type of effeminate: an overly hormonal, childish, emotional teenage girl. So when straight guys see them, they see a bratty, effeminate person, but unlike teenage girls they don't want to sleep with them so they get annoyed and start hating them. At least that's my theory anyways.

I suppose that makes sense, plus the ideas of what masculinity is is also a hold over from colonial times where a woman was at home, pumping out babies because that was basically the only way to ensure that your family would continue because things were so harsh.

And fair enough, I'm hardly a behavioral psychologist