Poll: Gender Identity

[Madame_Lawliet]

As a transwoman who's had a long day and REALLY doesn't want to get in an argument about the legitimacy of her gender identity, I'm just going to answer your poll and take my leave...

 

[Phasmal]

This has "been around" before, but presents some research that suggests that gender differentiation may well exist from birth

In some people I guess, but not everyone- and therein lies the problem. People act like it's black and white too much, when it really isn't.

There is nothing old fashioned or unenlightened about men wanting to behave like men and women like women.

No, if you want to act a certain way because `it's how men act`, there's certainly no problem with that. The problem is when people try and define for other how they should be acting. As long as you're not trying to push it on others, that's grand.

But it does bring me to the question- what do women behave `like`?

I'm a woman, therefore surely everything I do is `behaving like a woman`.

 

[verdant monkai]

In my opinion the idea of a male being trapped in a female body (or the reverse) is ridiculous, it goes against the natural order which created you as you are,

natural order?...what the hell is that?

its nothing...thats what it is...nothing alongside "superfoods"

[quote/]and even religion where you are defying a deities will for you to be born as you are.

preeeeeeety sure religion ain't an issue...in fact does the bible say anything about trans people? that would be interest...also interesting is that in some native American tribes a trans person was considered "of two spirits/worlds"

[quote/]I think the ability to accept yourself for who and what you are is far more impressive than surgery, that will cause you to become something which is neither male nor female. Unless you are already rather androgynous 99 times out of 100 the surgery will make you look like a cross dresser (in my opinion) and people will be able to spot you.[/quote]
not always, trans people can what they call "pass" and even then say...Laverne Cox (actress from OITNB) may be slightly taller and have a deeper voice, but she looks like a woman (and a beatuiful one at that) and the fact we all know she transitioned doesn't really matter

and you know some people just like to be androdgenous?

[quote/]I dont think being a woman in a mans body means you are a mistake. I think it means you are gay and should spend less on surgery and more time on finding a gay male to be with.[/quote]
[i/]it doesn't mean your fucking gay[/i]

who you want to have sex with and what your gender is are two different things

[quote/]
I am just an advocate of self acceptance.[/quote]
you can pre face it all you want....but your just misinformed[/quote]

Hey Vault we haven't talked in ages, I'm glad you came back.

To be honest I disagree with a lot of what you are saying, male and female are defined by whether you can make sperm or give birth (and then theres hermaphrodites). Anything other than them is something people have created through need to define themselves, but when you get down to it you are basically male or female, just check whats in your your underwear no one needs any further definition. I realise it may seem ignorant to you saying you are defined by your genitals, but this is one modern mode of acceptance I just cannot subscribe to. You are what you are born as. Thats not something we get to choose like parents or hair colour.

I had a quick google of Laverne Cox and I must agree thats a very convincing transformation. But really he is just a guy with an altered body, as he does not have the necessary parts to make children.

I'm sure the "Oh so you are saying infertile people are not male or female" was on the way. They are an exception. They are still male and female because they were born with the necessary parts, the parts just dont work very well. Grafting a penis or vagina and breasts onto yourself does not change you as these additions are not real. If we had the science to make a male into a female with fully working organic parts, then that'd be a different story.

I'm pretty sure I'm informed. I'm also pretty sure you just disagree.

 

[Thaluikhain]

To be honest I disagree with a lot of what you are saying, male and female are defined by whether you can make sperm or give birth (and then theres hermaphrodites). Anything other than them is something people have created through need to define themselves, but when you get down to it you are basically male or female, just check whats in your your underwear no one needs any further definition. I realise it may seem ignorant to you saying you are defined by your genitals, but this is one modern mode of acceptance I just cannot subscribe to.

A definition is an abstract concept created by humans. People can define things in various different ways.

Because someone has defined gender in a different way to you does not automatically mean they are wrong.

Additionally, true hermaphrodites don't actually exist, but a lot of people are intersex to various degrees, often without realising it.

Also, despite having looked it up, I'm still not clear on what the "cis" part is supposed to mean.

"Cis" is Latin, like "trans". It means "on the near side", whereas "trans" basically means "across"/"on the far side". For example, the Romans talked about Cisalpine Gaul, which was the bit of Gaul on the same side of the Alps as Rome, and Transalpine Gaul, which was the bit they had to cross the Alps to get to.

Huh.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Because it sounds stupid.

So? Lots of words sound stupid if you stop and think about it. Banana. Bamboozle. Wobble. Diphthong. I could go on, this is actually kinda fun.

Also, despite having looked it up, I'm still not clear on what the "cis" part is supposed to mean.

"Cis" is Latin, like "trans". It means "on the near side", whereas "trans" basically means "across"/"on the far side". For example, the Romans talked about Cisalpine Gaul, which was the bit of Gaul on the same side of the Alps as Rome, and Transalpine Gaul, which was the bit they had to cross the Alps to get to.

So basically, the word "cisgendered" is a perfectly logical counterpart to "transgendered". Of course, no one's asking anyone to describe themselves as cis (or indeed trans) in day to day life, but it's useful in scientific or statistical scenarios like this one.

EDIT: Fixed a quoting fuckup.

How very interesting. Still not going to use the word though.

 

[Phasmal]

snip

I meant in the stereotypical sense for example men who want to watch sports all day, lift weights and dont like emotional movies! I have noticed some people think if you seem like the stereotypical man then you must be dumb which is obviously not the case. Same as girls who spend a lot of time on their appearance must be vapid, also no true.

Yes, I think we as a society like to dumb people down too much. There's nothing wrong with being stereotypically male or female, just like there isn't anything wrong with not being so.

Most people are a mix of what gender expectations they accept or reject anyway.

 

[Callate]

This has "been around" before, but presents some research that suggests that gender differentiation may well exist from birth

In some people I guess, but not everyone- and therein lies the problem. People act like it's black and white too much, when it really isn't.

But I think it's also a problem that some people are utterly determined to believe the narrative that gender is nothing but a societal constraint- and absolutely nothing I see out in the world or in research suggests that that's remotely true, either. No matter how useful it would be for some arguments and points of view for it to be the case.

I do think that "nature and nurture" inevitably both play roles in human development, but we can't and shouldn't assume that anything we find inconvenient can simply be taught out. Surely the very existence of the LGBT community should have taught us this by now.

 

[Aramis Night]

I would hope that those that define themselves as trans have done similar homework before assigning themselves said definitions. There are many who are genuinely born with a brain that has been developed along the lines of one gender while the body developed into the other gender. I would hate to see the plight of those people marginalized by those who simply made a conscious choice to attempt to be the opposite of their biological gender out of some misguided idea that gender is a choice/social construct. The brains chemistry and structure should be the ultimate arbiters on this.
.

if its what they truly want and are willing to do (depending on if were talking hormones/surgeery I'm not an expert on that) then whats the issue? its not exactly easy, to do such a thing you not only risk losing your familiy and freinds but you practially put your own safty at risk...

or if I want to be androgenous and call myself neither why can't I? (well ok that would be a pain in most social situations)

it reminds me of this idea of saying being Gay isn't a choice....its an important distinction to make yes, but it gets to a point where you think "if it were a choice would it be the wrong one? must we keep spinning this "woe is me I cannot help being gay" narrative to apease potential bigots? who has the problem here? gay people or society?

You can refer to yourself as a towel if it makes you feel better and I have no problem with that. However I will not treat you like a towel because I still understand that your choice of identity and reality do not share the same space. I will continue to treat you as I understand you to be: a human that believes it is a towel.

Attempting to paint sexuality under the same terms doesn't make sense, since sexuality operates on a spectrum of options while gender is binary among our species. There is no hybrid male/female brain. Even if genitalia is ambiguously presented or hermaphroditic, the brain has clear gendered properties specific to each gender.

 

[Aramis Night]

Also, trans males have a chance of going bald, that's some scary stuff >_>

Try being a transwoman with hair loss.

More seriously, it might be the family I was raised in, or the country, or the society, or whatever, but the reason I went on for so long without realizing was that I really didn't know about the "male" privilege as a thing before I started hearing about it outside the people I spoke with. I've had men who wash and cook and women who builds and drive trucks and pay the bills around me for too long, I suppose. Even so, I've acted as a guy for as long as I can remember, and even as a child I was happier when I was mistaken for a guy.

I grew up on the corner of redneck and hippie, so I can sort of see it happening both ways. Hell, sometimes I could sort of see it at the same time.

Basically, I agree with the "It's not a choice. It's just how it is," thing. Not to mention, identifying as anything that's not your physical sex kinda removes most privileges. :/

Yeah, I mean, I don't know firsthand, but I seriously doubt saying "No, actually, I'm a dude. Ignore the bits I was born with" would in any way make things easier. Or grant more privilege.

To be frank, I kind of wish it was a choice, because then I could totally choose to not feel this way.

Yeah, I might be vain as hell, but the thought of losing hair scares me. >_> Neither sound particularly appealing to me.

Well, I know that people do make a bigger difference between them, but I've not grown up with a mindset to think that. If I had, I imagine a lot of stuff would be harder to accept.

Personally, I'd probably still choose to identify as a guy, if only because that's who I turned out to be. I honestly don't have too many issues with it, nor do I experience the difficulties with friends and family as most other trans-gendered people seem to do. I'm also not set at going through an operation yet, I want to know how it's done, and how well I can pass off as a guy, if it's simply not worth it, I'll probably stay as I am, as I said, I don't really regard the difference between guys and girls as huge. I don't mind if I'm called a woman either, since I'm a guy mentally, and a girl physically. That's just how it is.

Also, trans males have a chance of going bald, that's some scary stuff >_>

I've wondered about this...is it because the Hormones/testosterone make you more suseptible to male pattern baldness/premature baldness? I know that some women can get really thin on top...

Well, I meant when starting on testosterone. Having it in your family means there's a 50-50 chance of going bald if you start on hormones, or so the places I've checked say. And, it happens during that period (the hormone one) if it does happen, which means that if you start on it while in your teens/early twenties, you have the chance of going bald before you're out of uni. And while I know there are people who do lose hair that early, it's one of the things that makes me go; Nope. >_>

I just feel like I should bring up something that might calm some of your fears. Modern day hair transplant surgery works really well. I have had long black hair all of my adult life. It is a large part of my identity. When I turned 29 I found out that I had developed a large bald spot in the back of my head. This distressed me a great deal. Especially since I have no baldness in my family. It seems stress is a huge trigger as my life has not been easy. I looked into the surgery and various doctors who perform it in my area. Thankfully I live in southern California where we are swimming in cosmetic surgeons. I saved up for a few years and got the procedure done. The difference has been dramatic. What's even better is the transplanted hair is resistant to loss due to testosterone. It seems that it would work for your concerns if it came down to it.

 

[Drake the Dragonheart]

Having said that I think women have more of a natural affinity for a caring role and men have a natural affinity for mechanical/engineering roles. It maybe because people are more comfortable with a female caring for them. Granted this isnt a hard and fast rule and it may be more to do with preconditioning (im no expert) but its certainly a trend

snip

In this ideal situation of yours where there are no "gender roles" whatsoever and gender effectively loses all meaning, would there still be seperate bathrooms? What about "men's and women's sizes" in clothing? is that a product of gender roles or is there actually a practical reason behind such?

Because it sounds stupid.

So? Lots of words sound stupid if you stop and think about it. Banana. Bamboozle. Wobble. Diphthong. I could go on, this is actually kinda fun.

Diphthong? that is actually a word? is it safe to ask what that means (I'd rather ask than take the risk of googling it and it being something dirty.) Chipewas. I like that word. So fun to say. Chipewa. Chipewas.

 

[Eamar]

In this ideal situation of yours where there are no "gender roles" whatsoever and gender effectively loses all meaning, would there still be seperate bathrooms? What about "men's and women's sizes" in clothing? is that a product of gender roles or is there actually a practical reason behind such?

To be honest, I don't really understand why we have gender segregated bathrooms now. Do you feel strongly that there's a reason they should be separate? (Genuinely interested to hear.)

EDIT: As for the clothing thing, I would welcome more standardisation (anyone who's ever shopped for women's clothing will be able to tell you how utterly nonsensical women's sizes are). That said, clothing sizes do have to make some allowances for different body shapes. That's just biology, nothing to do with gender roles. Even then though, catering to different body shapes isn't entirely a gender thing - clothing manufacturers seem to be convinced that I can't possibly have larger thighs and a small waist, for example...

 

[Drake the Dragonheart]

In this ideal situation of yours where there are no "gender roles" whatsoever and gender effectively loses all meaning, would there still be seperate bathrooms? What about "men's and women's sizes" in clothing? is that a product of gender roles or is there actually a practical reason behind such?

To be honest, I don't really understand why we have gender segregated bathrooms now. Do you feel strongly that there's a reason they should be separate? (Genuinely interested to hear.)

I will get back to you later on that with an edit of this post, right now going to go see HTTYD 2! (spoiler: it was flipping awesome!)

Edit: To be honest I asked the first question largely in jest. See how in my earlier responses to this thread I played off of a response about how rediculous it would be for someone to say Zhukov was unmanly for using safety razors over straight razors to shave. Also, I honestly never gave that a second thought until you asked.

 

[Barbas]

Shit, I picked "Other" by accident. Now I'm not sure...I guess the closest of options on the list is probably "cisgender", though. What a strange word. It doesn't really have a ring to it. Cis-gender...Sizzzzz-genderrr.....

On another note, Google Chrome's spell checker recognizes "transgender", but not "cisgender". Than again, it has trouble with a lot of things.

(Snip).

Yonkers. Armitage. Barclay. Thespian. Myrmidon. Plums.

...I'd better stop there.

 

[Vault101]

You can refer to yourself as a towel if it makes you feel better and I have no problem with that. However I will not treat you like a towel because I still understand that your choice of identity and reality do not share the same space. I will continue to treat you as I understand you to be: a human that believes it is a towel.

Attempting to paint sexuality under the same terms doesn't make sense, since sexuality operates on a spectrum of options while gender is binary among our species. There is no hybrid male/female brain. Even if genitalia is ambiguously presented or hermaphroditic

so would you call a Trans person by their "original" name and refer to them as their original gender? even though they'd have a serious problem with that?

EG: [i/] Calling Andy Amy and refering to them as "her"[/i]

[quote/] the brain has clear gendered properties specific to each gender.[/quote]

thats....debatable

 

[Aramis Night]

You can refer to yourself as a towel if it makes you feel better and I have no problem with that. However I will not treat you like a towel because I still understand that your choice of identity and reality do not share the same space. I will continue to treat you as I understand you to be: a human that believes it is a towel.

Attempting to paint sexuality under the same terms doesn't make sense, since sexuality operates on a spectrum of options while gender is binary among our species. There is no hybrid male/female brain. Even if genitalia is ambiguously presented or hermaphroditic

so would you call a Trans person by their "original" name and refer to them as their original gender? even though they'd have a serious problem with that?

EG: [i/] Calling Andy Amy and refering to them as "her"[/i]

[quote/] the brain has clear gendered properties specific to each gender.

thats....debatable[/quote]

I suppose everything is debatable. Of course debating against established scientific/medical facts(http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/11/6/490.short) would put you in the same intellectual position as a creationist. But that is your prerogative.

As for how i would address an individual who wishes to be identified a particular way, by default i may be inclined to humor them. However if i become aware of which side their brain stands in terms of our species natural sexual dimorphism, then it may color how i continue to see them. I respect facts first and people 2nd. I may continue to humor them if i find their company favorable. I have a sense of pity for anyone that labors under a delusion. On the other hand, i may feel that i am being lied to if the individual has already been made aware of where they stand, and yet continues to be dishonest as to what they are. None of us get much of a choice about what we are. I don't pretend otherwise for myself. I don't see why i should share the delusions for others.

 

[Something Amyss]

Personally, I'd probably still choose to identify as a guy, if only because that's who I turned out to be. I honestly don't have too many issues with it, nor do I experience the difficulties with friends and family as most other trans-gendered people seem to do. I'm also not set at going through an operation yet, I want to know how it's done, and how well I can pass off as a guy, if it's simply not worth it, I'll probably stay as I am, as I said, I don't really regard the difference between guys and girls as huge. I don't mind if I'm called a woman either, since I'm a guy mentally, and a girl physically. That's just how it is.

I'm kind of jealous of people who have had your sort of luck. Not like, "OMG I HATE YOU" sort of stuff, but I've dealt with a lot of this in friends, family and community. It's left me with a borderline crippling fear of doing anything. I'm not sure which is particularly worse, loss of close friends or getting stabbed.

 

[DarkRawen]

Personally, I'd probably still choose to identify as a guy, if only because that's who I turned out to be. I honestly don't have too many issues with it, nor do I experience the difficulties with friends and family as most other trans-gendered people seem to do. I'm also not set at going through an operation yet, I want to know how it's done, and how well I can pass off as a guy, if it's simply not worth it, I'll probably stay as I am, as I said, I don't really regard the difference between guys and girls as huge. I don't mind if I'm called a woman either, since I'm a guy mentally, and a girl physically. That's just how it is.

I'm kind of jealous of people who have had your sort of luck. Not like, "OMG I HATE YOU" sort of stuff, but I've dealt with a lot of this in friends, family and community. It's left me with a borderline crippling fear of doing anything. I'm not sure which is particularly worse, loss of close friends or getting stabbed.

Well, I'm not too worried about family and close friends. However, I'm also careful about who I do tell it to. Anyone who has a position that could mess up my life should they dislike what they hear -and who I don't trust-, I don't tell. Not really because of confidence issues -invulnerable narcissism has its good points- but because I'd rather not have to deal with it. Not when the people who matter already know. The internet is a bit different, while people here certainly could do something, I doubt they would bother. Besides, I don't deal with people I don't like on the internet, I just tell them to go away >_>

So it's probably partly luck, not only because of the family I'm born into, but also because of who I have chosen to tell. Those I did tell I told pretty much as soon as I figured out that might be it -like, the same day I called my mother- but I've not told my father, since my parents are divorced and I'm not too close to my father. I don't know about his opinion on the matter, so I don't trust him not to respond in a way that'd be bad for me.

That said, I'd also say it's a matter of me don't caring too much. I'm pretty chill about it, and because of that, people are more comfortable with it. I don't really ask for people to refer to me as a male, I don't look like one, despite wearing guy's clothes and not wearing any makeup. Then again, I don't feel like joining any groups ever, I don't really feel like it's necessary for me -though I certainly understand that some people need that-, I pretty much have the stance that everyone's an individual, and that I simply don't identify with a group. I don't like to be identified by a single trait. I'm trans-gendered, yes, but first and foremost I'm me, I consider it as much a part of my identity as me being a narcissist or fond of the arts, if not even less.

snip

I just feel like I should bring up something that might calm some of your fears. Modern day hair transplant surgery works really well. I have had long black hair all of my adult life. It is a large part of my identity. When I turned 29 I found out that I had developed a large bald spot in the back of my head. This distressed me a great deal. Especially since I have no baldness in my family. It seems stress is a huge trigger as my life has not been easy. I looked into the surgery and various doctors who perform it in my area. Thankfully I live in southern California where we are swimming in cosmetic surgeons. I saved up for a few years and got the procedure done. The difference has been dramatic. What's even better is the transplanted hair is resistant to loss due to testosterone. It seems that it would work for your concerns if it came down to it.

I know of it, though any other hair on my body is curled and the hair on my head straight, which wouldn't make a good match. >_>

 

[xmbts]

I suppose I'll toss my vote in for the sake of numbers and stuff. Though to be honest the discussions that usually end up coming from this topic are pretty unsavory.

 

[Eamar]

I suppose everything is debatable. Of course debating against established scientific/medical facts(http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/11/6/490.short) would put you in the same intellectual position as a creationist. But that is your prerogative.

First sentence of the abstract for that article: "The etiology and consistency of findings on normal sexual dimorphisms of the adult human brain are unresolved." Also, the study's sample size of 48 is hardly impressive and nowhere near enough to start making statements about entire genders.

There is not scientific consensus on this, not by a long shot, and it's certainly not in any way comparable to "established scientific facts" like evolution, so quit with the hyperbole.

 

[Eamar]

Edit: To be honest I asked the first question largely in jest. See how in my earlier responses to this thread I played off of a response about how rediculous it would be for someone to say Zhukov was unmanly for using safety razors over straight razors to shave. Also, I honestly never gave that a second thought until you asked.

Fair enough. Your last sentence is interesting though - I mean, isn't it weird how much we just accept because it's the norm in our society? Ever since you posted your first response, I've been wracking my brain thinking that surely there must be a logical reason why we segregate bathrooms, and I've honestly got nothing. I mean, it's not considered odd that people who share a house (even if they're not related) share bathrooms, so why is it practically a requirement in public places or for businesses?

I'm aware that I'm going off on a tangent here, forgive my musings.