Poll: Gender recognition offence

[happyninja42]

If you want to prove me wrong, just give me that definition of men or women that isn't biological and my argument no longer makes sense.

Man: An adult person who identifies as a man.
Woman: An adult person who identifies as a woman.

Happy to help out.

Isn't a biologically male person who identifies himself as a woman wrong? Or is he also correct because he defines who he is and not biological requisites?

I'm not sure it matters if he/she is wrong/right at all. It's not a contest where there is a victor. The person can declare they are whatever they want, whether it's male, female, a Jedi, a Dudist, a devout Muslim, whatever. Nobody bothers to check the validity of other claims that people make about who they are, and how they wish to be perceived. So I don't see why this other issue should be any different. Whether it's based on biology, or a personal decision, it's there business, and not mine, and I don't really have an issue with them doing it.

I think we're all still supposed to be reeling from the fiction story on the first page. "Trannies are gunna hurt our feelings if we can't guess their gender, and they'll MAKE US DO IT!!!" seems to be the underlying theme. I'm a pretty open minded person, lived East and West coast, and afaik never had a conversation with a transexual person. If I did, they were passing and I would have gone with the gender I assumed they were, and from their perspective they are.

There are always the, "You'd be mistreated in a gay bar!" stories though. They're essential fictions to maintaining a hateful myth.

I'm curious about your "You'd be mistreated in a gay bar" comment. Could you elaborate a bit on that? I know you are using it as a false premise example, but I'm curious what you've heard from people on that front. Because speaking as a straight cis male who has been to several gay bars on multiple occasions, I experienced no such stigma, even after declaring my straightness. I got a few *blink blink* "Oh, you're straight?" *mental gears running about why he's here, then sees he's here with friends of mixed orientation and just rolls with it* "Oh, ok then! Hey nice to meet you!" Then it was just your typical night in a club. Drinking, laughing, yelling over loud music, and general bullshitting like you would in a typically straight bar.

 

[JimB]

How is this something that inconveniences you?

I saw a video series once I won't mention the name of in public because I don't want to derail the conversation as this particular video series will (for the record, it is not Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, so get that out of your head). The series posits that when someone gets angry about social issues, there's a pretty good chance their anger is because they recognize on some level that they are being forced to recognize their actions have not been one hundred percent virtuous and perfect, and that they will have to change and grow and evolve and do other hard things if they want to maintain this self-image of being perfect and virtuous; and that they choose fury instead, to perceive the person responsible for the realizations as an attack, because if they convince themselves the other person is attacking them, then they can claim a moral high ground and not have to examine themselves or their own behavior further.

There are specific instances in which I don't believe this general rule applies--a significant portion of it is just hate for hate's sake, a variant on gay panic--but I think a lot of it is that people who genuinely perceive a request to have their gender identity recognized are people who need trans people to be morally and objectively wrong in order to keep perceiving themselves as righteous and perfect who don't need to improve themselves at all.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

If you want to prove me wrong, just give me that definition of men or women that isn't biological and my argument no longer makes sense.

Man: An adult person who identifies as a man.
Woman: An adult person who identifies as a woman.

Happy to help out.

Isn't a biologically male person who identifies himself as a woman wrong?

The experts in the field say no, she is not wrong. The problem here is you are conflating gender and sex, tying personal identity to rigid physical characteristics. Turns out these things, while highly correlated, are not the same.

Or is he also correct because he defines who he is and not biological requisites?

I think an important point to note here is that trans people do not define who they are in the sense that they don't choose. We never got to choose. Many of us fight against being trans for years and years. For whatever reason we are the way we are and we have to figure it out.

Well the math I was talking about was designed to debunk the 1 in 12 chance over a life time HRC statistic.

Anyways you're preaching to the choir on the under reporting problem, especially when it comes to trans folk.

Oh, I figured that about the 1 in 12 stat, seeing as the numbers don't add up at all. I just wanted to make sure it was clearly stated. The rest of my comment was directed to the thread at large, lots of people are talking about statistics here, it is worth noting that the data we have is massively crap and underreported in this area so statistics are not reliable.

Edit: Crap my post did not properly quote, fixed that

 

[happyninja42]

Do your studies actually specify the number of confirmed hate crimes in those figures?

As stated these stats come from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, which deals exclusively with hate crime. As @ThatOtherGirl said, it's more than likely than the statistics are actually are even worse than reported than the reported statistics say, especially when you're dealing with a group that might avoid help due to further victimization.

Edit: I know it's hard to swallow, especially in light of how awful the statistics look, how hard it is to fathom that people can be so hateful. But if you look at the vitriol spewed directly at the trans community, people calling us things like; "rapists", "dangerously mentally ill", "pedophiles", "liars", "perverts", even things like "hellspawn", and even worse. That there are enough people making horrible unfounded accusations to put us in serious danger just for existing. People say bad words don't hurt, but really the big lies can be easy to believe and people aren't hard to incite to violent action, especially when they see a group as a direct threat.

This is especially considering that over a quarter of people believe homosexuality should be illegal, period: http://www.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx It's been getting better, but consider the fact that trans folk are even less accepted than lesbian, gay, and bisexual folk.

Actually no it's not that hard to swallow for me. Well, I'm assuming you are directing this comment to me, since you typed it directly under a quote of mine, so I'm going to respond as if you were. If not, and you are using the plural form of you, then just disregard my following comment. I'm not surprised that there are people in this world that are hateful and violent to others. We are a populous species, with an extremely varied mental landscape. I was simply pointing out that one statistic doesn't automatically mean another variable is the cause. Hence why I asked if the study actually stated the figures as being due to hate crime or not. I mentioned it simply because I've had discussions with people before, who would say "The figures say that X is happening, so it MUST be because of Y reason." When the data said nothing at all as to the reason for the data, and was simply stating the figures. It was a clarification request, nothing more.

 

[Something Amyss]

That's true. I often forget that for me, this is an issue of simple respect and human courtesy, but for the trans community, there are real safety concerns involved. Thank you for the reminder.

I actually thought that was where you were going with your statement, so I didn't think I was reminding you.

...I feel like I should tell you to "check your privilege" now. But not really.

The series posits that when someone gets angry about social issues, there's a pretty good chance their anger is because they recognize on some level that they are being forced to recognize their actions have not been one hundred percent virtuous and perfect, and that they will have to change and grow and evolve and do other hard things if they want to maintain this self-image of being perfect and virtuous; and that they choose fury instead, to perceive the person responsible for the realizations as an attack, because if they convince themselves the other person is attacking them, then they can claim a moral high ground and not have to examine themselves or their own behavior further.

The series also touches upon the issue that there is an inferred judgment/value call. Basically, to put it mildly, if someone doesn't drink and I do, they're casting judgment on me as a bad person because they're doing the "virtuous" thing. It doesn't even necessarily matter why they don't drink.

Isn't a biologically male person who identifies himself as a woman wrong? Or is he also correct because he defines who he is and not biological requisites?

Can you tell me what the biological requirements for manhood and womanhood are?

Honestly, I don't see the issue.

I have encountered several transgender folks in my travels, and I have never been "shamed" for "offence", 'cause common courtesy and decency is NOT a hard thing to do. Why the hell would you go up to random people and go "ohhh you MALE", "ohhh you FEMALE". That's ridiculous.

How is this something that inconveniences you?

It's generally a scare tactic. Trans people are going to be mean to you is a way to reinforce prejudice and/or hatred against us. It's sort of like the idea of the immigrant terrorist or that black welfare queen riding around in a Mercedes. It doesn't matter if these have happened or not, or are likely to, the feeling's there, and feelz before realz.

If trans people are jerks, it becomes easier to marginalise us.

...I mean, I am a jerk, but it has nothing to do with my gender identity. >.>

I'm curious about your "You'd be mistreated in a gay bar" comment. Could you elaborate a bit on that?

There is this idea that people propagate that straight guys will be mercilessly hit on/harassed/treated like pieces of meat in gay bars. I imagine that's not even remotely true, but I don't spend a lot of time in them. However, certain people who were convinced I was a straight dude were SHOCKED that I would spend any time in one because they thought they were all guys mercilessly buttsecksing each other or something. Fortunately, mountain trolls don't get hit on in bars very often until closing time. <.<

The joke that came out of this is that they're afraid they'll get treated by gays the same way they treat women.

 

[happyninja42]

I'm curious about your "You'd be mistreated in a gay bar" comment. Could you elaborate a bit on that?

There is this idea that people propagate that straight guys will be mercilessly hit on/harassed/treated like pieces of meat in gay bars. I imagine that's not even remotely true, but I don't spend a lot of time in them. However, certain people who were convinced I was a straight dude were SHOCKED that I would spend any time in one because they thought they were all guys mercilessly buttsecksing each other or something. Fortunately, mountain trolls don't get hit on in bars very often until closing time. <.<

The joke that came out of this is that they're afraid they'll get treated by gays the same way they treat women.

Yeah, nothing like that happened. Though I did run into one guy I knew, who was VERY surprised to see me in a gay bar the first time, and subsequently asked me to be his boyfriend later on. It was quite funny actually. I politely declined him, stating that I wasn't gay, and he responded with "You don't have to be gay to put your dick in my mouth." Which, while technically true, was in my case, incorrect. I again politely declined and went on my way that night. I still remember that exchange and chuckle. But that wasn't even IN the club. It was like, months later, when I ran into him out in public. All my encounters at a gay club were perfectly fine.

Maybe if I had gone in solo it would be different? *shrugs* I mean I did go in with several girls who were regulars there, along with their gay friend. I had recently started dating one of them, so maybe I gave off a "he's not on the market" vibe. But I don't think so, considering how many people were surprised when I told them I was straight. Yeah that's all anecdotal, but it really was just the same as a straight club. Just more effeminate men walking around, and lots of guy/guy girl/girl make out sessions. *shrugs* Seemed perfectly fine to me. I actually had more fun there, because the music was better, more along the lines that I personally enjoy.

 

[Batou667]

Man: An adult person who identifies as a man.
Woman: An adult person who identifies as a woman.

Happy to help out.

Self-identification only goes so far.

Can I choose to identify as black to get access to college funding?
Can I identify as 12 years old to play in an under-13 sports team?
If I identify as a Tyrannosaurus Rex, do I get free admission to Jurassic World screenings and official WWF/Greenpeace "Endangered Species" status?

 

[happyninja42]

Self-identification only goes so far.

Can I choose to identify as black to get access to college funding?

Actually yes, considering that one woman did pretty much this, and self identifies as trans-racial.

 

[JimB]

To Something Amyss: a forum error is preventing me from quoting you, so I would like to say regarding your comments about checking my privilege, I very nearly said in the post you reference that I consider such a reminder a humbling but necessary privilege-checking on my part; I chose not to include it because I thought the two most likely responses would be derailing rage about how privilege doesn't exist or people being unable to tell that I was being sincere.

Self-identification only goes so far.

Yes, it does.

Can I choose to identify as black to get access to college funding? Can I identify as 12 years old to play in an under-13 sports team? If I identify as a Tyrannosaurus Rex, do I get free admission to Jurassic World screenings and official WWF/Greenpeace "Endangered Species" status?

I think you know those kinds of abuses are insupportable, so why are you really asking this, Batou667? Are you suggesting the transgendered are abusing their rights call themselves men or women in order to defraud the government, private sports organizations, and for-profit companies?

 

[Something Amyss]

Yeah, nothing like that happened.

I would be surprised if this ever happened. Okay, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that, in the thousands of gay bars in this country it happened once or twice, but it always seems to be your friend's neighbour's uncle's lawyer's sister's dog who got treated this way. I imagine you would be safe if you went into a gay bar by yourself. But I really don't know.

 

[JimB]

Yeah, nothing like that happened.

I would be surprised if this ever happened.

Oh look, now you are off the Ignore list I didn't know I had, and I can quote you again. Good god.

Anyway: I tend to file these complaints under "No one fears theft like a thief." Like, you know, the people who are most afraid of being killed by Muslims are the ones who keep liking Facebook posts about killing Muslims, or the ones who think the transgendered are trying to play thought police are the ones thought-policing the transgendered, or the ones who think video game critics are out to silence them are the ones spending all their effort to silence the critics. Someone who insists gay people would assault straight people if teh gheyz outnumbered them is someone I consider having put up a neon sign telling me he would physically hurt gay people if he could ever get away with it.

 

[happyninja42]

Yeah, nothing like that happened.

I would be surprised if this ever happened. Okay, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that, in the thousands of gay bars in this country it happened once or twice, but it always seems to be your friend's neighbour's uncle's lawyer's sister's dog who got treated this way. I imagine you would be safe if you went into a gay bar by yourself. But I really don't know.

Yeah, I suspect I would be fine too. Partly because I'm a tall son of a ***** that most people don't try and mess with. But also because most people are, you know, civil human beings. I mean sure, if I was going to some actual fuck party, an official "This is an orgy type event, for people to fuck other people", then yeah, I would expect some heavy comings on. But just a club to drink and dance? Meh.

Yeah, nothing like that happened.

I would be surprised if this ever happened.

Oh look, now you are off the Ignore list I didn't know I had, and I can quote you again. Good god.

Anyway: I tend to file these complaints under "No one fears theft like a thief." Like, you know, the people who are most afraid of being killed by Muslims are the ones who keep liking Facebook posts about killing Muslims, or the ones who think the transgendered are trying to play thought police are the ones thought-policing the transgendered, or the ones who think video game critics are out to silence them are the ones spending all their effort to silence the critics. Someone who insists gay people would assault straight people if teh gheyz outnumbered them is someone I consider having put up a neon sign telling me he would physically hurt gay people if he could ever get away with it.

Yeah, I had the same ignore problem with Ms. Amyss above. Apparently it's cleared up though.

And yeah, that's probably true, I was just unfamiliar with the example that the poster I originally quoted was referring to. If there was some more commonly referred to thing or whatever. And yeah, I know exactly the kind of guy you are talking about. I remember having to put up with them in highschool, when one of their ranks decided to just dub me "the fag", and bully me for the entire highschool time. Nevermind that I'm actually, you know, NOT gay. They didn't care, and harassed me regularly. The things they would say, and the mental connections they would make to "confirm" I was gay were rather insane to me. One of the funnier ones to me, for it's cognitive dissonance in my opinion, was the fact that I always sat with girls at lunch. Like, every year, my cluster of people I would sit with, would be a table of female classmates. And this, my desire to be around women was somehow a marker that I was gay. I guess the only thing that would prove it for them would be if they actually witnessed me having sex with a woman. Even then they would probably find some way to say I was secretly gay. Because they're just assholes like that.

 

[Erttheking]

Man: An adult person who identifies as a man.
Woman: An adult person who identifies as a woman.

Happy to help out.

Self-identification only goes so far.

Can I choose to identify as black to get access to college funding?
Can I identify as 12 years old to play in an under-13 sports team?
If I identify as a Tyrannosaurus Rex, do I get free admission to Jurassic World screenings and official WWF/Greenpeace "Endangered Species" status?

We've got a name for this type of argument. It's called a non-sequitur. There is nothing connecting these arguments. Sex is biological. Gender is social. People are identifying as something social. Age, species and ethnicity are all biological.

 

[Politrukk]

Gender is not some kind of social construct.

The field of social sciences has been recognizing the difference between sex and gender for nearly forty-five years. If you know better than common, peer-reviewed consensus among a specific scientific discipline, then I invite you to tell us your credentials and show us your data.

By this Tumblr-BS, you should all acknowledge me as a lizard. What? I feel like one.

Sure, I'll call you a lizard if you want me to call you a lizard. Doesn't cost me anything to do; why wouldn't I? How's it hanging, my lizard? Are you a specific lizard, or just generically four-legged and reptilian?

Oh come on, the lizard part is so obvious to prove false.

That's why people ridicule otherkin above else.

you think you're a fairy? sure, any time pre 1990 they would have put you in an asylum but in the 90's to 00's we called it a workable disorder and now in the 10's it has turned into some sort of pedestal...

honestly gender yourself to space but when people start about being angelkin,lizardfolk or boomkin for that matter they better fork over some proof and unless it is a WoW subscription we can suspect their insanity.


Edit:

Unless you can show me some magic, I'm onboard if you have proof.

 

[Something Amyss]

Actually yes, considering that one woman did pretty much this, and self identifies as trans-racial.

Probably a bad example.

Well, a good example of it happening, but you're unlikely to find much support for transracialism. It's literally used as an argument against transfolk.

To Something Amyss: a forum error is preventing me from quoting you, so I would like to say regarding your comments about checking my privilege, I very nearly said in the post you reference that I consider such a reminder a humbling but necessary privilege-checking on my part; I chose not to include it because I thought the two most likely responses would be derailing rage about how privilege doesn't exist or people being unable to tell that I was being sincere.

Fortunaely, a lot fewer people pay me mind these days.

And yeah, I was just being a smartass.

 

[JimB]

Oh come on, the lizard part is so obvious to prove false.

I don't care. If chocolate pickles thinks he's a lizard and wants me to call him a lizard, then I have no profit on calling him something else, except for whatever joy I can take in being a dick to him; and taking joy in being a dick is something I tend to be ashamed of.

You think you're a fairy? Sure, any time pre-1990 they would have put you in an asylum but in the 90's to 00's we called it a workable disorder and now in the 10's it has turned into some sort of pedestal.

Oh, knock it off, Politrukk. If you define not picking a fight with someone over something that cannot possibly affect me in the slightest as putting someone on a pedestal, then I advise you to sit down, take a few deep breaths, and get over whatever rage this is you're harboring.

When people start about being angelkin, lizardfolk or boomkin for that matter they better fork over some proof and unless it is a WoW subscription we can suspect their insanity.

No, we can't. "Insanity" is a specific term with a specific definition: unable to be found guilty of a crime because of a mental disease or defect that prevents them from understanding the consequences of their actions. Likewise, as I already said in this thread, "mental disorder" is an equally strictly defined term, referring to someone at increased risk of pain, disability, or death because of a pattern of behavior. Otherkin are not crazy: They're just weird, and that's okay. It's okay to be weird. They're not hurting you, they're not hurting me, they're not hurting themselves. Let them be weird. Christ, dude, you act like everyone who thinks something about himself that you don't permit them to think is some kind of personal attack against you.

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh look, now you are off the Ignore list I didn't know I had, and I can quote you again. Good god.

This is apparently quite common today. I've known a couple of other people to be on one end of the equation or the other.

Anyway: I tend to file these complaints under "No one fears theft like a thief." Like, you know, the people who are most afraid of being killed by Muslims are the ones who keep liking Facebook posts about killing Muslims, or the ones who think the transgendered are trying to play thought police are the ones thought-policing the transgendered, or the ones who think video game critics are out to silence them are the ones spending all their effort to silence the critics. Someone who insists gay people would assault straight people if teh gheyz outnumbered them is someone I consider having put up a neon sign telling me he would physically hurt gay people if he could ever get away with it.

Well, it's pretty common to assume yourself as "normal," so if you're hateful or fearful or bigoted, you will probably see it in others, too.

The lack of self-awareness that surrounds some of these astounds me, though. It probably shouldn't, but it does.

Yeah, I suspect I would be fine too. Partly because I'm a tall son of a ***** that most people don't try and mess with. But also because most people are, you know, civil human beings. I mean sure, if I was going to some actual fuck party, an official "This is an orgy type event, for people to fuck other people", then yeah, I would expect some heavy comings on. But just a club to drink and dance? Meh.

There's also a strong tendency to keep your head down. I mean, it's not universal, but gays making a big deal (and anyone else under the LGBT umbrella, as well) tend to get viewed in this culture as "asking for it." And part of the problem in that is that what is considered "making a big deal" is pretty low. Being openly gay, especially if you're effeminate or flamboyant, tends to cause a certain level of dismissal even now when it's getting better.

Sex is biological. Gender is social.

Okay, now I'm curious. Do you think that people who seek significant alterations of their body (hormones, SRS [though not every trans person goes this far]) do so entirely socially?

 

[happyninja42]

Actually yes, considering that one woman did pretty much this, and self identifies as trans-racial.

Probably a bad example.

Well, a good example of it happening, but you're unlikely to find much support for transracialism. It's literally used as an argument against transfolk.

An article I read when she specifically said she was transracial on a talk show, stated that she was considered brave by the hosts. So while I know some use it as an example against, others also use it to try and support the inclusion. It's a puzzling subject to be sure.

 

[JimB]

Do you think that people who seek significant alterations of their body (hormones, SRS [though not every trans person goes this far]) do so entirely socially?

Couldn't tell you. I don't have much anecdotal experience with body alteration, and the terminology has changed so significantly since the last time I formally studied it (once upon a time, I understood "transgender" to refer specifically to cross-dressers, whereas "transexual" referred to someone seeking surgical alterations to secondary sexual characteristics), so I don't feel qualified to say. What input do you have?

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

They identify socially and then alter their biology to match up with it. Sorry, it was a skin deep take on it and so is this, I'm rather sleepy. Sorry.