Poll: Gender recognition offence

[Callate]

snip

If someone has the physical features and external care of their sex it is not wrong to call them such

...This poll would be much clearer if you took out that "not".

I don't appreciate anyone flying off the handle if someone mis-identifies their chosen gender the first time, but after a clarification, identifying them as they choose is just a matter of respect.

 

[happyninja42]

If you look like a woman and you snap at the sound of someone even considering that you are indeed a woman? and then demanding respect afterwards? I don't get it.

It's called "people have bad days and aren't perfectly rational robots".

And everybody deserves a baseline level of respect.

Very true, that includes the people who are making the mistake. I wouldn't consider it respectful to snap at them for making an honest mistake. If it's intentional then yeah sure, give them attitude back, but respect the other person too, and respect the fact that it might not be 100% apparent by looking at you what gender you wish to be identified as.

 

[McElroy]

This one's easy: speak a language that doesn't have gendered pronouns. Then a person can do what it wants.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I think the op would be better served to reword their question, as it obviously has invited a lot of attack on their character for the way they worded the question. They deserved it though, they were totally asking for people to attack them as a person. /sarcasm

Stuff like this absolutely drives me away from accepting these kind of people as normal.

When he makes statements like that, suggesting how one person upsetting him is going to change how he acts towards a bunch of other people who have nothing to do with it, he rightly deserves to be called on it.

"Someone was mean to me so I'm not accepting any of those people!" is a rather awful stance. It suggests he thinks how they deserve to be treated depends completely on his personal feelings.

 

[veloper]

If anyone complains about a "he" that would be a "she", then they are intruding on a conversation, or are at the very least, left out already.

There is this word "you". That's what we call you. Not he/she/they/it/nonsense.

This complaint is so stupid, they didn't even think of worrying about Sir/madam, but went for he/she.

 

[Areloch]

I move that we replace all pronouns with the sassy "Byatch"

"Hey, byatch!"

"Look at that byatch!"

"Byatch's crazy!"

Problem solved. Not only does this remove gendered pronouns, it also would make everyone sound hilarious.

 

[9tailedflame]

I think equal rights are great.

Being called by the pronouns and gendered nouns you identify yourself as is a right you as a cis person enjoy, MHR. I think if you refuse to treat trans people with the same courtesy, then your claim of supporting equal rights is dubious.

I hear stories that make it hard for me to get on board with this pronoun thing, like when someone says 'I'm a woman, but I identify as a man, yet I still dress like a woman and you have to use male pronouns' and it's like come on, you're not making this easy for us!

In that story, the person explicitly told you what pronouns he wants you to use. What specifically is so hard about that?

If you look like a woman and you snap at the sound of someone even considering that you are indeed a woman?

Politrukk, I think you are making the mistake of assuming everything going on in the trans person's life is about you. Live a lifetime of people calling you the wrong name, as well as a lifetime of a shrinking but aggressively assholish percentage of the population insisting that they have a greater right to tell you who you are than you have to declare who you are, and see if you don't get a little touchy about it.

Sucks that someone snaps at you for the bad day (or bad life) they've had up to this point, but my suggestion would be to be at least as tough as you want the trans person to be; to accept that they made a mistake and to forgive them for it.

They don't have a right to get mad at you for that.

Anyone has a right to feel anything they want to feel. You do not get to dictate the contents of someone's heart and mind to them, 9tailedflame.

The only thing that bothers me about they/them is that it also implies plurality.

Words do not have inherent meanings. They only mean what we as a culture agree to let them mean. It seems reasonably clear from context that no one in that instance could have heard you call that person "they" and think you were talking about multiple individuals, so what's the problem here?

If that person gets pissed off at me and says "Excuse my I'm a tri-gendered pyrofox," I will laugh and walk away and never speak to them again.

That will teach that imaginary person not to submit to your dominant right to decide what gender they are. Depriving them of your presence will be a pain they'll regret for the rest of their lives.

...so, uh, should I be offended people still call me young lady on occasion?

Up to you. I'm a bit confused by the question, honestly. Do you want to be offended, or are you asking if there's some overarching global authority that dictates what your emotional responses are required to be, or what?

Someone wants to be known as non-binary? No thanks, I'm not putting up with that.

Can you please explain what exactly us such a burden about referring to a person the way they ask you to refer to them? What specific effort does it cost you?

Do we really need a special designation for not being transgender?

Who's "we?" I don't see why there's anything wrong with having a word to describe a condition of being.

Ok, sure, they have the right to be mad, but you have no way of knowing someone's gender identity just by looking at them, so guessing wrong isn't something you can be blamed for. You didn't actually do anything wrong, and as such, you don't deserve to be yelled at or anything.

 

[ScaredIndie]

Obviously if you do not know better there is a certain level of assumption that goes into human interaction.

If someone has a full beard and gets mad at you for calling them a he then that person is an irrational moron.

If said person politely asks you to call her a she and you don't then you are an asshole.

I would have voted for "Tumblr..." but it didn't say "fuck off tumblr" so I just voted seriously.

 

[Drops a Sweet Katana]

I think this is one of those things that people really shouldn't get worked up about. If someone misgenders you, it's not likely malicious and was probably an honest mistake since the english language isn't really equipped to deal with the idea of sex and gender being two different things, as well as the glut of pronoun sets that entails. That person should try their best to accommodate, but it's not easy working a completely new set of pronouns into your vocabulary so they're liable to make more mistakes. Frankly, I think it's more fuss than it's worth. I understand that people may not identify with the current set of pronouns, but it really isn't worth making a huge fuss if someone makes a mistake or just uses 'they' and whatnot to refer to you in a gender neutral fashion.

 

[GalanDun]

Someone wants to be known as non-binary? No thanks, I'm not putting up with that.

Can you please explain what exactly is such a burden about referring to a person the way they ask you to refer to them? What specific effort does it cost you?

Because science doesn't support the idea of non-binary genders. At most, you could possibly argue there are three. But even that's stretching quite a bit. And as a man of science, I don't support anything that directly contradicts it. Same reason I don't tolerate creationism or intelligent design.
Plus, (And this is somewhat debatable) it's possible non-binaryism and transgenderism are just a mis-identified mental illnesses, and as long as that possibility exists, I don't want to possibly be complicit in enabling someones mental illness.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Someone wants to be known as non-binary? No thanks, I'm not putting up with that.

Can you please explain what exactly is such a burden about referring to a person the way they ask you to refer to them? What specific effort does it cost you?

Because science doesn't support the idea of non-binary genders. At most, you could possibly argue there are three. But even that's stretching quite a bit. And as a man of science, I don't support anything that directly contradicts it. Same reason I don't tolerate creationism or intelligent design.
Plus, (And this is somewhat debatable) it's possible non-binaryism and transgenderism are just a mis-identified mental illnesses, and as long as that possibility exists, I don't want to possibly be complicit in enabling someones mental illness.

Yeah all the same reasons people deny the big bang. Transgenderism was classified as a mental illness and they changed their minds. Wanna know why? THEY STUDIED AND LEARNED BETTER!!!

Reading the last two pages have contained some of the most horrific transphobia I've ever seen. If you can't treat someone else with respect because they're different, then don't expect them to treat you with any respect. That's correct, it's polite, and professional. If you shit on a trans person for being trans, you're a fucking jerk, no question. That applies to people objectively in general. Period. You can't respect a person for feeling different? You demand they shut up to make you happy? Shut the fuck up. It's called being polite, fucking do it, because if you don't you're the kind of person who has no place in society. Because you can't fucking treat others with the same respect you fucking demand.

Also next time I hear "Genderfluid attack helicopter" Fuck you, you're the opposite gender as you present, because you're a disrespectful, selfish asshole! No questions! You can't respect another person, so fuck you.

** All statements of "you" here are general application, they only apply if you are as a person are a disrespectful shit ****.

Treat people right is all I'm saying, if you the person reading this can't do that, then don't expect to be treated right in return. That is pretty simple manners. If you don't have any manners then you are an asshole, deal with it.

 

[cthulhuspawn82]

It does get confusing. The two main suggestions are to call them what they are and to call them what they want to be. In the case of a transgender person, those are two different things. That's what makes them transgender in the first place.

 

[Mikeybb]

Not to mention it comes off as the mild inconvenience of courtesy being somehow a huge affront.

Hey, didn't we just have this conversation?

We have this conversation every 25 minutes on these forums, now.

Yes. Yes we do.

Or at least daily. But...there are new people choosing to enter into the discussion from time to time who haven't learned yet.

Courtesy, but on the internet?
That just sounds... weird.
Like a chilli and chutney sandwich.
Eh, maybe it'll work out.

 

[Politrukk]

I find it odd people here assume I was misgendering this person on purpose, even after I explicitly stated that was not my intention, I was just taken aback by the strong worded reply and harassment that followed.

 

[Politrukk]

If you look like a woman and you snap at the sound of someone even considering that you are indeed a woman? and then demanding respect afterwards? I don't get it.

It's called "people have bad days and aren't perfectly rational robots".

And everybody deserves a baseline level of respect.

I was giving them that, read my edit and last post, I'm actually starting to take offence to this pre-contrived notion of me having meant to insult them, it was not the case.

And actually it's proving my point now that there's some inherent offence that this person took and now people here are taking to an honest mistake.

 

[Skatologist]

Someone wants to be known as non-binary? No thanks, I'm not putting up with that.

Can you please explain what exactly is such a burden about referring to a person the way they ask you to refer to them? What specific effort does it cost you?

Because science doesn't support the idea of non-binary genders.

Science also doesn't really contradict it like you're implying too.

Also quick observation, if this is what your litmus is, I do wonder what you think of gay or bisexual people and other various sexual orientations.

How many sexual orientations do you believe there are? 2? 3? Or would you humor the potential of sexual orientation at least being as complicated and intricate as a spectrum?

At most, you could possibly argue there are three.

I'd like to know why you'd think this. I'm all ears.

And as a man of science, I don't support anything that directly contradicts it.

How would having recognizing more than 2 genders contradict science? I mean, psychological associations are already acknowledging that there aren't just trans men and trans women under the gender dysphoria/trans umbrella, but other forms of gender identity as well. And I haven't seen anything from a neurological/psychological institution saying "Nope! We've concluded for now and eternity that there are only 2 genders found in humans!"

Plus, (And this is somewhat debatable) it's possible non-binaryism and transgenderism are just a mis-identified mental illnesses, and as long as that possibility exists, I don't want to possibly be complicit in enabling someones mental illness.

Again, I'd like you to replace this with argument with sexual orientations that aren't heterosexual and see if you still agree.

Also "enabling their mental illnesses" is what actually is the prescribed thing to do for people with gender dysphoria.

 

[The_Darkness]

The only thing that bothers me about they/them is that it also implies plural.

My only issue with the They/They're "pronouns" is plurals.
I don't like saying "They are doing xyz" if it's one person.
And "They is doing xyz" just feels dirty in a purely grammatical manner.

I really don't get this complaint. We already use 'they' as a non-gendered singular pronoun in circumstances where the relevant gender is unknown. For example:

"The thief crept past three guard rotations to steal that ruby. Whoever they are, they're good."

'It' isn't right in this context, since 'it' is generally used to refer to objects, not people. 'He/She' wouldn't work either, since whichever you use, you're assuming a gender for this hypothetical thief of unknown gender. So we use a singular 'they' here, in this context. Or does that example sentence also feel uncomfortable to you?

And if 'they' doesn't feel uncomfortable in my above example, why does it feel uncomfortable to use 'they' as a singular pronoun for someone who wants to be identified as 'they'?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I find it odd people here assume I was misgendering this person on purpose, even after I explicitly stated that was not my intention, I was just taken aback by the strong worded reply and harassment that followed.

And don't forget you also said: "Stuff like this absolutely drives me away from accepting these kind of people as normal."

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I find it odd people here assume I was misgendering this person on purpose, even after I explicitly stated that was not my intention, I was just taken aback by the strong worded reply and harassment that followed.

Who even said you did it on purpose? Can you quote someone saying that because it seems to me like you're reading into things that aren't there.

 

[Something Amyss]

And coming in on the hot tag....

Because science doesn't support the idea of non-binary genders.

Science actually does support the notion, largely because most of the fields that deal with human biology accept that things do not fit into the neat little boxes where we try and force them.

Now, does "science" support the notion explicitly? There's limited study, so technically no. We're seeing more medical papers on the concept, however, which are a beginning to that exact support. You can say

Transgenderism was classified as a mental illness and they changed their minds. Wanna know why? THEY STUDIED AND LEARNED BETTER!!!

"Transgenderism" is on a euphemism treadmill and they change the terms in ways that are largely irrelevant. Calling it a medical disorder is now not acceptable not because it's not a disorder, but because of a fear of stigma. In fact, many changes of the classification of gender identity are due more to the sort of political correctness you seem to hate than any medical foundation. The reality is that treatment of trans individuals was changing even as it was called a mental disorder, and would have continued to doso in all probability.

Call it a mental disorder, a birth defect, or a nargle. This isn't about "learning better," it's about not offending.

And for the record, I vote "nargle" because then Luna will come looking for me.

Also "enabling their mental illnesses" is what actually is the prescribed thing to do for people with gender dysphoria.

And, interestingly enough, is not limited strictly to transsexuals. Kinda knocks the argument into the ground, don't it?

And actually it's proving my point now that there's some inherent offence that this person took and now people here are taking to an honest mistake.

Serious question:

In this thread you've reacted poorly to criticism, accused people of going for your throat and misrepresented others. Up to and including stating someone(s) accused you of doing this on purpose. We can't see this other person's conduct, but we can see yours and it paints a picture that leads me to believe it's more likely you took offense.

Also, I should point out that while you claim to support trans people, it was the same day you made this thread that you used "cis" as a way to deride the problems of modern feminism. Not to mention you withhold your support based on the condition they not offend you.

None of this makes me particularly prone to believe you are the injured party. Do you really think it paints you as such?