Poll: Homeopathy

[Daystar Clarion]

And THIS is wrong. Our medicine is other people's alternative medicine.

You can argue semantics until you're blue in the face.

The point still stands that alternate medicine which is found to work better than what was used previously isn't alternative anymore, it's just medicine

I quess this you're right.

But the "found to work better" process is just flawed, because of the arrogance of those, who decide which works best (pharma industry, anyone?).

Captcha: traffic light.
Yep, can't discuss with these.

Well yeah, I don't doubt there's a level pharmaceutical interference when it comes to some medicines.

Still gotta make money am I right

There's not so much interference just that some things aren't researched because the active ingredient can't be patented for some reason or other because it costs around one billion dollars to get one drug on the market and that's not factoring the dozens or hundreds of failed versions or isomers or stuff before they found the one that worked. If it can be patented you can bet your ass some company will research it to be ahead of the competing companies.

Drug patents only last for 20 years and 10-15 of those will be spent on research so the actual selling of the drug happens only in the last 5-10 years and after that all the generic pharmaceutical companies will have their own versions out an the company that developed the original won't give a rats ass about it anymore (unless they can patent a new isomer of it).

As for natural medicine and plants well there is a whole pharmaceutical thing called pharmacognosy which focuses on finding useful active ingredient from plants, animals, bacteria and stuff like that and yeah they do look at 'local medicine' and stuff like that to get an idea what might and might not work and then they test those chemicals and plants/animals/whatever.

Ya see those natural medicine people keep raving about that they get from plants often have the same active ingredients as the drugs but they also have wildly varying doses (for example it's a ***** to regulate how much of a given chemical is in a certain leaf or twig or whatever), a bunch of impurities that can affect how the stuff works or even affect your body and finally they are not in the optimal for to get to the part of the body that it's best for the drug to be absorbed from and/or the absorption isn't optimal or even, as they've found in some of the stuff, the active ingredient in the leave juice you just swallowed breaks down in acidic environment.

Hi thread i'm Pffh and I'm a pharmacologist, ask me drug related stuff I guess.

I'm always glad when someone who actually knows what they're talking about weighs in on these kinds of threads

 

[Naeras]

snip

Quoted me by accident at the end there pal

Too many quotes in one. >_<

 

[Hoplon]

I'm torn. Homeopathy doesn't make any sense chemically so thats right out. That said, some natural remedies do work. I'm not saying they work better or as well as conventional medicine because that isn't true, but they helped to create modern medicines. Its not just some fantasy that chemicals that have effects on the body akin to medicine are found in nature. Willow Bark has been shown to be a painkiller [http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/willow-bark-000281.htm]but that does not mean that it is more effective then painkillers at stores.

If you want a reliable version of that, try aspirin, since the active ingredient is the same as is found in willow bark and indeed derived from.

 

[pffh]

I'm torn. Homeopathy doesn't make any sense chemically so thats right out. That said, some natural remedies do work. I'm not saying they work better or as well as conventional medicine because that isn't true, but they helped to create modern medicines. Its not just some fantasy that chemicals that have effects on the body akin to medicine are found in nature. Willow Bark has been shown to be a painkiller [http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/willow-bark-000281.htm]but that does not mean that it is more effective then painkillers at stores.

If you want a reliable version of that, try aspirin, since the active ingredient is the same as is found in willow bark and indeed derived from.

Yup right there an example of pharmacognosy at work.

 

[Denamic]

Less poison doesn't kill people faster. Less detergent doesn't get plates cleaner.

Ironically, according to homeopathy, if you get poisoned by some plant, you should drink water with the poison of said plant 'mixed in' to cure it. I say 'mixed in', because the amount is so minuscule that there's more dinosaur urine in it than poison.

Homeopathy is so stupid that it's beyond just retarded. It's absurd people actually believe that bullshit. In fact, anyone who believes it is an idiot, pure and simple. That's not even intended as an insult. Homeopathy is just so incredibly ludicrous that you have to be an actual idiot, objectively stupid, to believe it.

 

[Matt King]

well in theory using herbs could work, i do believe in some alternate therapies or whatever the fuck you call them, for example i can see how acupuncture could work what with the manipulation of pressure points and such

 

[Roggen Bread]

SNIP

(trying not to miss-quote

Granted, the difference was VERY little. Just high enough and systemic enough for not being a normal random mistake (used 5 different machines in like 20 tests).

Also the photometric effect was different (I hope you know what I mean. English in this kind of field is really not my strong point).

To your "it takes weeks..."-thingy. You're right. Anti-body is the wrong term. Like I said: (please imagine broad German accent!) I don't english!.
But the swelling is due to the poison being cleaned out by osmosis. This is more like an anaphylactic reaction. And I think the poison from the exterior might help with this (but don't ask me how).
This stuff works, in my experience, with mosquito-stings. They just aren't that itchy anymore and seem to go away faster. And this is not because of cooling, numbing or else. Well, acutally it might be numbing, there's (small amounts of) alcohol in it.


And: Here you are. An article about studies concerning homeopathy. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1475491603000067
I did not read it at full concentration since I am working on physics right now (bio-chemistry remembers me how much I loooove physics!), but I think this article might be in favor of homeopathy.

 

[BrassButtons]

If the patient is cured through a placebo, it's still a success.

Except placebos don't actually cure anything, because they don't do anything. Can placebos be useful? Sure. Are placebos medicine? No. Is it ethical to sell placebos as though they were on equal footing with real medicine (meaning medicine that actually has an effect)? No.

Homeopathic remedies are sold as something that can actually cure ailments, which is a lie. If you get better because of the placebo affect then that has nothing to do with whatever "remedy" you used, it's purely the result of your own brain's superpowers. Homeopathy is thus all either sold through deliberate fraud, or ignorance. Neither of those has any place when it comes to treating any kind of ailment.

Personally, I'd rather have stuff like a flu, headache or even some circulation issues solved through a questionable but harmless trickery

Not properly treating any of those could potentially kill you. It's not terribly likely that they will, but there's still enough of a risk involved that your treatment decisions should be based off of the most accurate information you can get. And the only way to consider homeopathy a valid treatment option is if you lack accurate information about it (like you said, placebos don't work if you know they're placebos).

as opposed to pumping chemicals in insane quantities through my body, but to each their own, I guess.

Medication does not equate to "pumping chemicals in insane quantities through your body." If it does the medication will probably kill you (and you're probably not taking the recommended dosage, since scientists spend a lot of time figuring exactly what quantities of the medicine are safe).

Or is your issue here with the idea of "chemicals" itself? Because literally everything you put into your body is made up of chemical, homeopathic remedies included.

 

[Winthrop]

I'm torn. Homeopathy doesn't make any sense chemically so thats right out. That said, some natural remedies do work. I'm not saying they work better or as well as conventional medicine because that isn't true, but they helped to create modern medicines. Its not just some fantasy that chemicals that have effects on the body akin to medicine are found in nature. Willow Bark has been shown to be a painkiller [http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/willow-bark-000281.htm]but that does not mean that it is more effective then painkillers at stores.

If you want a reliable version of that, try aspirin, since the active ingredient is the same as is found in willow bark and indeed derived from.

Exactly. I don't think natural remedies are a good idea compared to refined drugs, but that doesn't mean some of them don't work if you are ever stuck out in a forest and hurt or something.

 

[Naeras]

Trying hard not to screw up the quotes this time xD

SNIP

(trying not to miss-quote

Granted, the difference was VERY little. Just high enough and systemic enough for not being a normal random mistake (used 5 different machines in like 20 tests).

Also the photometric effect was different (I hope you know what I mean. English in this kind of field is really not my strong point).

Photometric effect from a compound that's been diluted 10^30 times? No offense, but that makes no sense, even if the survey was thorough.

To your "it takes weeks..."-thingy. You're right. Anti-body is the wrong term. Like I said: (please imagine broad German accent!) I don't english!.
But the swelling is due to the poison being cleaned out by osmosis. This is more like an anaphylactic reaction. And I think the poison from the exterior might help with this (but don't ask me how).
This stuff works, in my experience, with mosquito-stings. They just aren't that itchy anymore and seem to go away faster. And this is not because of cooling, numbing or else. Well, acutally it might be numbing, there's (small amounts of) alcohol in it.

I'm still fairly certain that the itching/swelling is a result of tissue damage, and to some extent ruptured mast cells/histamine, not simply the concentration of whatever chemical the insect injected when they punctured the skin(venom, anti-coagulation factors, etc). Cleaning it does help, but if osmosis has anything to do with how it works, I can't see any reasons why you shouldn't be able to achieve the same results with simple home-made salt water, as long as you get the concentration right.

And: Here you are. An article about studies concerning homeopathy. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1475491603000067
I did not read it at full concentration since I am working on physics right now (bio-chemistry remembers me how much I loooove physics!), but I think this article might be in favor of homeopathy.

Huh, interesting. Thanks for the link, this is the first time I've seen any serious article not outright condemn homeopathy. All other articles I've ever seen on the subject has concluded that, barring the obvious placebo effect, there's no observed effect from, or mechanism behind, homeopathy. The article you linked to reported research potential, though. Not much else, but still, interesting. I merely read the summary, however, as I don't want to pay for the full paper. :V
Then again, that article is almost 10 years old, and I think we both know how insanely the life science fields are advancing. It's quite possible (even probable?) that everything in that article could have been disproved by now.

I guess I should also clarify that I, as a bioscience student, actually think it would be awesome if homeopathy actually worked, because that's a lot of areas to research and a lot of completely new stuff we could learn about both life and the world. Plus, it'd mean potential for cheaper medicines and more effective treatment. However, pretty much everything points towards a great, big NO as to whether or not homeopathy works: from the lack of a theoretical mechanism, to the overall lack of evidence, and the amount of resistance homeopaths show when researchers ask to let them study the methods in a controlled environment.

 

[Roggen Bread]

Trying hard not to screw up the quotes this time xD

SNIP

(trying not to miss-quote

Granted, the difference was VERY little. Just high enough and systemic enough for not being a normal random mistake (used 5 different machines in like 20 tests).

Also the photometric effect was different (I hope you know what I mean. English in this kind of field is really not my strong point).

Photometric effect from a compound that's been diluted 10^30 times? No offense, but that makes no sense, even if the survey was thorough.

No sense? Mate, in this conversation. A conversation over a kind of "medicine" that doesn't make any sense at all (and yet, in some cases, and by this point I stand, works)... well, I think you know what I am trying to say.

But however. There was a photometric effect.
To back me up: http://journals.ohiolink.edu/ejc/article.cgi?issn=00095893&issue=v67i1-2&article=157_ipdadoiahpbc

I just ignore the poison/wound/whatever discussion.
I am way out of topic and can't give a good, well informed statement. Probably you're right.

 

[DANEgerous]

No water does not have a motherfucking memory and 200 C mean the substance you intend to take is not in your meds no matter if you eat 500000K Pills. If like cures like take a sip of water and and enjoy the ability to never drown IE breathe underwater.

 

[mateushac]

I believe belief can make anything believable. Thank you!

Btw, I kind of believe in some "alternative medicine" and I actually did feel some improvement to some personal disfunctions as a child after getting some acupuncture sessions, be it placebo or not.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

That's a bit of a mixed bag you're offering here.

I personally know that natural/herbal knowledge can prevent, ease or cure many an ailment.

I've seen cats and dogs respond to homeopathic medicine, which made me shut up for good about it being all 'in the head'. You can't explain to a cancer-ridden cat that the smelly water or sugary treats will take some edge off the pain or make some of the fear go away when it's time to go.

Still, it also has to be said that there's plenty of humbug in alternative medicine. There's some chemical facts and holistic truth in some of the very basic concepts, but it comes wrapped in more BS than all the holy books, all the yellow press and all Harry Potter books rolled into one.

That's a lot of BS.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Trying hard not to screw up the quotes this time xD

SNIP

(trying not to miss-quote

Granted, the difference was VERY little. Just high enough and systemic enough for not being a normal random mistake (used 5 different machines in like 20 tests).

Also the photometric effect was different (I hope you know what I mean. English in this kind of field is really not my strong point).

Photometric effect from a compound that's been diluted 10^30 times? No offense, but that makes no sense, even if the survey was thorough.

No sense? Mate, in this conversation. A conversation over a kind of "medicine" that doesn't make any sense at all (and yet, in some cases, and by this point I stand, works)... well, I think you know what I am trying to say.

But however. There was a photometric effect.
To back me up: http://journals.ohiolink.edu/ejc/article.cgi?issn=00095893&issue=v67i1-2&article=157_ipdadoiahpbc

I just ignore the poison/wound/whatever discussion.
I am way out of topic and can't give a good, well informed statement. Probably you're right.

Question: what kind of water did you test the homeopathic solution against? Distilled? And did you (group doing the testing) get the same results with the same machine and the same solution several times?
And what kind of water is used by homeopathy fabricants?
These factors all play an important part in the end result.
Next question: what kind of photometric effect did you register? Was it the same for every machine you used? And does it concur with the "active ingredient" of said homeopathic medicine?
And it does work in some cases, just like, say, a sugar pill, being given to people as medicine.
I still do not believe that homeopathy truly "works", simply because I have yet to find a conclusive double-blind study of adequate size and with a clearly described working randomisation process.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

That's a bit of a mixed bag you're offering here.

I personally know that natural/herbal knowledge can prevent, ease or cure many an ailment.

I've seen cats and dogs respond to homeopathic medicine, which made me shut up for good about it being all 'in the head'. You can't explain to a cancer-ridden cat that the smelly water or sugary treats will take some edge off the pain or make some of the fear go away when it's time to go.

Still, it also has to be said that there's plenty of humbug in alternative medicine. There's some chemical facts and holistic truth in some of the very basic concepts, but it comes wrapped in more BS than all the holy books, all the yellow press and all Harry Potter books rolled into one.

That's a lot of BS.

Actually, this could be a variaton of the "Kluger Hans" phenomenon.
You give the cat/dog something you expect to make your pet better. You communicate this via body language and probably also by telling your pet. Your pet "believes" you and responds to the medicine positively.
Please note, that this is simply an assumption on how this could work, I do not claim, that this is ZE ONLY KORREKT WAY.

Also: entertaining, if you understand german: http://www.cdkev.de/aufsaetze_vortraege/sonstiges/marburger_ek/marburger_ek.htm

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

Alternative medicine that works is just called medicine. That said, homeopathy is one of the worst offenders of bullshit.

 

[cookyt]

If diluting the active ingredient creates a better cure, then wouldn't plain tap water (which has a minuscule concentration of just about everything) be some sort or panacea? That said, homeopathy doesn't work.

As far as other alternative medicine goes, herbs and such containing some ingredient which might cure some diseases can be useful if you don't have access to medicine of a better quality. For example, if you're lost in the woods. Other than that, I'd say it's better to go for the store-bought stuff.

 

[Savryc]

I was trying to think up something insightful or witty but honestly it's just bollocks, let the fools lap up their sugar water. More actual working medicine for me.