Poll: Homosexuality

[Mudze]

I support homosexuality, in a sense. It exist, and I believe homosexuals should be equal, but I approach it with the same cautious attitude that I do with feminism. Somehow, someway, people are going to take it too far and give the previously discriminated group too many rights and too little responsibility.

Why do I hold this opinion? Well, I'm about 20% homosexual myself, and it kind of sucks, for more reasons than just discrimination.

 

[Arkynomicon]

Don't care or judge people about their sexuality. They can be furries or have a fetish for garden gnomes for all I care.

So, Whatever float your boat.

 

[Raikazu]

Perople can't be persecuted for a natural phenomenon. People are, even unknowingly, simply following the Bible's misplaced views on sexuality because they were aware of it at the time. The only reason the Bible says that love is between a man and a woman is because homosexuality hadn't been prominent enough to make it into the book.

People need to realise that homophobia has the same impact on a society as racism and sexism and that people's minds need to get around the modern world, and try to evolve their old beliefs so that they fit into modern societal beliefs.

 

[101flyboy]

It's not so much that...It's people that play on it and are overly dramatic about their sexuality. I know two guys that are gay, but they're just like you or me. They live together, but if you ever saw them in town, they'd look like they were just two friends, and when asked if they're a couple, they just say "yeah".

Basically "I'm gay, deal with it" attitude.

The problem is that you're making assumptions that people are who more fem are INTENTIONALLY more fem acting because they want attention. Maybe they just aren't gender conforming. Maybe they are simply naturally more flamboyant. Not everyone is going to be cut from the same cloth, some people are naturally more exuberant than others. As long as that exuberance doesn't harm you directly, it isn't an issue.

Being gay is NOT a lifestyle. And no, the whole behind closed doors thing doesn't work. Gay people are gay inside and outside of their houses. It's not about them hiding their gayness, it's about your issues surrounding it and moving past them. And moving past your gender stereotypical mentality of what men "should" act like. There are no guidelines on being a man. Your basically saying gay people should act "normal", act like regular guys, basically be straight acting. But they are gay, and not all gay men are straight acting. So you sort of have to move on and get over it.

i think its more that as soon as people see gay men in particular acting in that cartoonish stereotype perpetuated by shows like will and grace almost instantly you lose some credibility, as you feel it (or it appears that you feel it) is more important to play into a stereotypical example of what you should be rather than what you are. And there are also people who intentionally too far that way to get attention.

Any person who entirely defines themselves by what it is considered their gender role should be like isn't somebody i want to know because they have no thought process.

(footnote i dont mind little bits of flamboyance that come with the territory but there has to be some substance to the individual. I would similarly dismiss females who slut up and only talk about clothes boys and clubbing)

But, again, that doesn't mean people do not act fem or are more flamboyant naturally. Because they do. It's not about being a stereotype for many of these men.

Everything you're saying is said by a lot of masculine gays, too. Oh, they give gay people a bad image. Why? Because they don't conform to what is considered normal. It's not a thought process for a lot of these fem gays. It's just that fact they are more feminine, and people can't handle that because it's like they are going against the "man code." It doesn't mean these gays are like, oh, well I'm going to go out of my way to show everyone how gay I can really be. They simply express themselves in a different manner. It's the same way anyone else expresses themselves, it's just different, rather than expressing themselves in a masculine demeanor, they do so in a more feminine way.

You should honestly get to know these people before automatically condemning them.

I do get to know them, i live with two. And they are the stereotype to the extreme. I know there are some who are naturally that fem but i find it hard to believe that is that large of a percentage of them, especially when 90% of all the lesbians i have met were exactly the same as a straight girl except they liked women. I believe a LOT of what is done is trying to act in the way that is seemingly socially acceptable to them.

It not that they don't conform to what is normal (i hate muscle bound twats who only talk about cars aswell) its that they entirely conform to the opposite. Its the concious act of deciding to be that far out there that bugs me. Totally conforming to what people expect you should be just makes you a dull individual.

The overly flamboyant nature was just a tool to express their sexual orientation and be proud of themselves at a time when nobody was, it was a way to stand up for your fellow gay and show you were the same. But they are accepted now, their doesnt need to be a big statement or any big show for attention.

AND THAT DAMN ACCENT, it annoys me on a science level because its the only non-geographic accent on the PLANET which exists purely to draw attention to an aspect of yourself. I mean its a staple of insecurity when you need to go around making sure people know exactly how you are just by your sound.

Probably best you don't requote this don't want a flame war.

I'm going to repeat. NOT ALL FEM GAY MEN DO THIS FOR ATTENTION. Many, if not most of them, are simply FEMININE ACTING.

You keep harping on the stereotypes. Yeah, they are more feminine acting. They may have the lisp. They may wear pink and work in fashion. But you keep acting as if these men choose to act like this, all of the time. That it's a constant act. That's ridiculous. Now, one can ask, are these men this way naturally, or have they been socially conditioned to behave this way. That's a different argument in totality. But subconsciously acting more fem is not the same as choosing to do so for attention. Plenty of straight men have a lisp too. Plenty of masculine gays have some feminine characteristics. Lesbians have their characteristics too, but most don't even care to notice, since most really don't care about lesbians. But you just don't like it when these men don't act like what men are supposed to act. You have this idea that men are like _________. But there are no GUIDELINES for what it means to behave as a man. There is NO such thing as acting straight or acting gay.

And to say that gay people are accepted now, is false. There is gaining acceptance. There is not "acceptance". Not when half of the countries of US and slightly less than half in the UK are against marriage equality. Not when hate crimes are on the increase in many countries. Acceptance needs to increase, and the only way that happens is by educating the masses.

no i have an idea that men/women SHOULD BE THEMSELVES. Acting into a stereotype ANY stereotype reduces individuality something each person should be very proud to have. And the reason i see it s acting into it is because people act into all kinds of stereotypes, from lonely gamers to depressed goths. Being yourself is what i take issue with here. And odds are against most of them being that similar. The outside influence being that is how they are expected to behave, and they don't question it. So yeah keep quoting me with anger if you want. I want people to be the best they can be as individuals buying into a mass identity is not that.

I have spoken to psychologists and sociologists about this and the responses i got were predominantly that gender roles perpetuated by society and television were defining them more than anything biologically. Don't know any biologists but I'll be sure to ask one when i meet one.

(footnote they may not consciously be doing it, but to have created a persona based off of television or societal expectation (even subconsciously) shows (to me) a lack of breaking the mould, or striving for individuality. Which is all we really have as human beings)

It's not acting into a stereotype. It is NOT a stereotype. It's who people ARE. Is that hard to understand. It shouldn't be. I'm not angry, I'm frustrated, you are like a brick wall. It's not an act, it's not a calculated move, it's simply what some people identify as.

Again, whether all fem-acting gays are such way because they have been socially conditioned or because that's what they came out the womb as, is a different argument all together. But PLENTY of men, gay and straight, show feminine traits at a younger age. It's not a complete side show. It's reality. Ultimately, if it HURTS NO-ONE, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? It doesn't AFFECT you unless you let it. So YOU should stop being affected by it.

And, if a person is subconsciously acting in such way, obviously, it's not a creation of a persona, it's a persona that they developed and which they have become and identified as. To say that shows a lack of individuality isn't really the case. They are simply individuals who choose to express their individuality in a way that is different than others choose to. It's not about breaking the mold, it's about, are you comfortable in your own skin? Are you a real person? Do you accept yourself? If you're answering yes, that's what matters.

 

[101flyboy]

I support homosexuality, in a sense. It exist, and I believe homosexuals should be equal, but I approach it with the same cautious attitude that I do with feminism. Somehow, someway, people are going to take it too far and give the previously discriminated group too many rights and too little responsibility.

Why do I hold this opinion? Well, I'm about 20% homosexual myself, and it kind of sucks, for more reasons than just discrimination.

Why does it suck? Feeling of despair or being alone? Or just wanting to be "like everyone else"?

Gay rights shouldn't be met with skepticism. Ultimately, one has to ask, what are too many rights? Because, we do have a self-checking society. If people get out of line, they are checked. They are reprimanded. Unless the boundaries of acceptable behavior in general completely change or go away, then none of that will be an issue.

 

[funguy2121]

The question is simple. Don't forget to add WHY you feel the way you do.

For my own vote, I'm a strong supporter of homosexuality, though I'm by no means gay myself. I firmly believe that, as long as it's not hurting anyone else, people should be able to live their lives however they damn well please. This includes being able to love and marry whomever they please.

So, escapists, How do YOU feel? And remember, tell us why you feel that way.

EDIT: Just so people will stop spouting it off, I realize that this is rather poorly phrased. I think most of you can glean my meaning though, without needing to point out that I could have worded this differently.

Ninja'd, by the OP!

 

[101flyboy]

It's not so much that...It's people that play on it and are overly dramatic about their sexuality. I know two guys that are gay, but they're just like you or me. They live together, but if you ever saw them in town, they'd look like they were just two friends, and when asked if they're a couple, they just say "yeah".

Basically "I'm gay, deal with it" attitude.

The problem is that you're making assumptions that people are who more fem are INTENTIONALLY more fem acting because they want attention. Maybe they just aren't gender conforming. Maybe they are simply naturally more flamboyant. Not everyone is going to be cut from the same cloth, some people are naturally more exuberant than others. As long as that exuberance doesn't harm you directly, it isn't an issue.

Being gay is NOT a lifestyle. And no, the whole behind closed doors thing doesn't work. Gay people are gay inside and outside of their houses. It's not about them hiding their gayness, it's about your issues surrounding it and moving past them. And moving past your gender stereotypical mentality of what men "should" act like. There are no guidelines on being a man. Your basically saying gay people should act "normal", act like regular guys, basically be straight acting. But they are gay, and not all gay men are straight acting. So you sort of have to move on and get over it.

i think its more that as soon as people see gay men in particular acting in that cartoonish stereotype perpetuated by shows like will and grace almost instantly you lose some credibility, as you feel it (or it appears that you feel it) is more important to play into a stereotypical example of what you should be rather than what you are. And there are also people who intentionally too far that way to get attention.

Any person who entirely defines themselves by what it is considered their gender role should be like isn't somebody i want to know because they have no thought process.

(footnote i dont mind little bits of flamboyance that come with the territory but there has to be some substance to the individual. I would similarly dismiss females who slut up and only talk about clothes boys and clubbing)

But, again, that doesn't mean people do not act fem or are more flamboyant naturally. Because they do. It's not about being a stereotype for many of these men.

Everything you're saying is said by a lot of masculine gays, too. Oh, they give gay people a bad image. Why? Because they don't conform to what is considered normal. It's not a thought process for a lot of these fem gays. It's just that fact they are more feminine, and people can't handle that because it's like they are going against the "man code." It doesn't mean these gays are like, oh, well I'm going to go out of my way to show everyone how gay I can really be. They simply express themselves in a different manner. It's the same way anyone else expresses themselves, it's just different, rather than expressing themselves in a masculine demeanor, they do so in a more feminine way.

You should honestly get to know these people before automatically condemning them.

I do get to know them, i live with two. And they are the stereotype to the extreme. I know there are some who are naturally that fem but i find it hard to believe that is that large of a percentage of them, especially when 90% of all the lesbians i have met were exactly the same as a straight girl except they liked women. I believe a LOT of what is done is trying to act in the way that is seemingly socially acceptable to them.

It not that they don't conform to what is normal (i hate muscle bound twats who only talk about cars aswell) its that they entirely conform to the opposite. Its the concious act of deciding to be that far out there that bugs me. Totally conforming to what people expect you should be just makes you a dull individual.

The overly flamboyant nature was just a tool to express their sexual orientation and be proud of themselves at a time when nobody was, it was a way to stand up for your fellow gay and show you were the same. But they are accepted now, their doesnt need to be a big statement or any big show for attention.

AND THAT DAMN ACCENT, it annoys me on a science level because its the only non-geographic accent on the PLANET which exists purely to draw attention to an aspect of yourself. I mean its a staple of insecurity when you need to go around making sure people know exactly how you are just by your sound.

Probably best you don't requote this don't want a flame war.

I'm going to repeat. NOT ALL FEM GAY MEN DO THIS FOR ATTENTION. Many, if not most of them, are simply FEMININE ACTING.

You keep harping on the stereotypes. Yeah, they are more feminine acting. They may have the lisp. They may wear pink and work in fashion. But you keep acting as if these men choose to act like this, all of the time. That it's a constant act. That's ridiculous. Now, one can ask, are these men this way naturally, or have they been socially conditioned to behave this way. That's a different argument in totality. But subconsciously acting more fem is not the same as choosing to do so for attention. Plenty of straight men have a lisp too. Plenty of masculine gays have some feminine characteristics. Lesbians have their characteristics too, but most don't even care to notice, since most really don't care about lesbians. But you just don't like it when these men don't act like what men are supposed to act. You have this idea that men are like _________. But there are no GUIDELINES for what it means to behave as a man. There is NO such thing as acting straight or acting gay.

And to say that gay people are accepted now, is false. There is gaining acceptance. There is not "acceptance". Not when half of the countries of US and slightly less than half in the UK are against marriage equality. Not when hate crimes are on the increase in many countries. Acceptance needs to increase, and the only way that happens is by educating the masses.

no i have an idea that men/women SHOULD BE THEMSELVES. Acting into a stereotype ANY stereotype reduces individuality something each person should be very proud to have. And the reason i see it s acting into it is because people act into all kinds of stereotypes, from lonely gamers to depressed goths. Being yourself is what i take issue with here. And odds are against most of them being that similar. The outside influence being that is how they are expected to behave, and they don't question it. So yeah keep quoting me with anger if you want. I want people to be the best they can be as individuals buying into a mass identity is not that.

I have spoken to psychologists and sociologists about this and the responses i got were predominantly that gender roles perpetuated by society and television were defining them more than anything biologically. Don't know any biologists but I'll be sure to ask one when i meet one.

(footnote they may not consciously be doing it, but to have created a persona based off of television or societal expectation (even subconsciously) shows (to me) a lack of breaking the mould, or striving for individuality. Which is all we really have as human beings)

It's not acting into a stereotype. It is NOT a stereotype. It's who people ARE. Is that hard to understand. It shouldn't be. I'm not angry, I'm frustrated, you are like a brick wall. It's not an act, it's not a calculated move, it's simply what some people identify as.

Again, whether all fem-acting gays are such way because they have been socially conditioned or because that's what they came out the womb as, is a different argument all together. But PLENTY of men, gay and straight, show feminine traits at a younger age. It's not a complete side show. It's reality. Ultimately, if it HURTS NO-ONE, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? It doesn't AFFECT you unless you let it. So YOU should stop being affected by it.

And, if a person is subconsciously acting in such way, obviously, it's not a creation of a persona, it's a persona that they developed and which they have become and identified as. To say that shows a lack of individuality isn't really the case. They are simply individuals who choose to express their individuality in a way that is different than others choose to. It's not about breaking the mold, it's about, are you comfortable in your own skin? Are you a real person? Do you accept yourself? If you're answering yes, that's what matters.

umm aside from the rest of the argument. There is a gay stereotype.It exists and a lot of gay men are that stereotype. Are you seriously trying to argue that that doesn't exist. Because it really does no matter how much you want to deny that. Whether or not they were born into it is a different thing which depends on what you believe (id much rather believe we have responsibility for our outcomes in life).

And aside from all that, your missing the crucial thing im taking issue with, im not taking issue with having some or a lot of the traits associated with it. Im taking issue with people that fully define themselves by said traits. Anybody who doesn't look beyond whats laid out straight infront of them for experiences in life is close minded. A trait i wish to have nothing to do with.

Here is the point. It's a "stereotype", but I should clarify what I meant, it's not just some fake created "hey look, that dude is gay, look at how he acts and dresses!" It's not like all blacks eat cornbread, or all women love shopping. No, it's a REAL way of being. A real sense of self. A lot of gay men do fit it, which is why it isn't a stereotype in that sense. It's not an act.

You are saying that these feminine gays fully define themselves by their femininity. But they don't. They are just feminine. They don't define themselves as anything, they don't classify themselves. They just are what they are.

We could say the SAME things about guys who are sports oriented. (Not all of them) They aren't actively defining or being something. They just are more into sports. They just are more masculine. You keep thinking that it's an act to be a fem gay, but for many of them if not most, it isn't whatsoever, and it's offensive to say it is.

 

[Arrrgh_Bruce]

I just dont think that people are that fussed about the issue anymore, except for religious persons. It has gotten to a point where the general public feel like homosexuality is just as common and 'normal' as hetrosexual relationships and that there isnt any real need for the 'loud and proud, accept us' stereotype anymore. The public knows everything and most of us support you now and it just comes across as either trying to just get attention or just being annoying. Well thats in my opinon anyway.

It may be that they feel like they are entitled to something as they have been opressed for most of history but I dont feel they are. I accept everything and want them to have full rights but as far as receiving some kind or recompense, not so much.

 

[Tom Hill]

I am indifferent because "supporting" a sexuality is like supporting an eye colour or preference for peanut butter over jam.

It's their business, my immediate primitive response is that of disgust when I think about two men having intercourse but that is because it is something I wouldn't do.

I don't care what other people's sexuality is, aslong as they arn't someone who I would never be attracted to, who is attracted to me. E.g. A creepy weird girl, or any man.

A gay man was attracted to me once, it was awkward.

 

[101flyboy]

I just dont think that people are that fussed about the issue anymore, except for religious persons. It has gotten to a point where the general public feel like homosexuality is just as common and 'normal' as hetrosexual relationships and that there isnt any real need for the 'loud and proud, accept us' stereotype anymore. The public knows everything and most of us support you now and it just comes across as either trying to just get attention or just being annoying. Well thats in my opinon anyway.

It may be that they feel like they are entitled to something as they have been opressed for most of history but I dont feel they are. I accept everything and want them to have full rights but as far as receiving some kind or recompense, not so much.

That's not true. Hate crimes are on the rise, and gay rights support is still in the 50s percentile only. There are still a lot of people who are anti-gay. And then a lot of people who are passively anti-gay. There are a lot of people living in a bubble, who have this, it's cool that you're gay, whatever mentality. A lot of gay people face hardships, they seek support for that reason, and they don't get a lot of it in many cases. That's where the issue is.

 

[101flyboy]

It's not so much that...It's people that play on it and are overly dramatic about their sexuality. I know two guys that are gay, but they're just like you or me. They live together, but if you ever saw them in town, they'd look like they were just two friends, and when asked if they're a couple, they just say "yeah".

Basically "I'm gay, deal with it" attitude.

The problem is that you're making assumptions that people are who more fem are INTENTIONALLY more fem acting because they want attention. Maybe they just aren't gender conforming. Maybe they are simply naturally more flamboyant. Not everyone is going to be cut from the same cloth, some people are naturally more exuberant than others. As long as that exuberance doesn't harm you directly, it isn't an issue.

Being gay is NOT a lifestyle. And no, the whole behind closed doors thing doesn't work. Gay people are gay inside and outside of their houses. It's not about them hiding their gayness, it's about your issues surrounding it and moving past them. And moving past your gender stereotypical mentality of what men "should" act like. There are no guidelines on being a man. Your basically saying gay people should act "normal", act like regular guys, basically be straight acting. But they are gay, and not all gay men are straight acting. So you sort of have to move on and get over it.

i think its more that as soon as people see gay men in particular acting in that cartoonish stereotype perpetuated by shows like will and grace almost instantly you lose some credibility, as you feel it (or it appears that you feel it) is more important to play into a stereotypical example of what you should be rather than what you are. And there are also people who intentionally too far that way to get attention.

Any person who entirely defines themselves by what it is considered their gender role should be like isn't somebody i want to know because they have no thought process.

(footnote i dont mind little bits of flamboyance that come with the territory but there has to be some substance to the individual. I would similarly dismiss females who slut up and only talk about clothes boys and clubbing)

But, again, that doesn't mean people do not act fem or are more flamboyant naturally. Because they do. It's not about being a stereotype for many of these men.

Everything you're saying is said by a lot of masculine gays, too. Oh, they give gay people a bad image. Why? Because they don't conform to what is considered normal. It's not a thought process for a lot of these fem gays. It's just that fact they are more feminine, and people can't handle that because it's like they are going against the "man code." It doesn't mean these gays are like, oh, well I'm going to go out of my way to show everyone how gay I can really be. They simply express themselves in a different manner. It's the same way anyone else expresses themselves, it's just different, rather than expressing themselves in a masculine demeanor, they do so in a more feminine way.

You should honestly get to know these people before automatically condemning them.

I do get to know them, i live with two. And they are the stereotype to the extreme. I know there are some who are naturally that fem but i find it hard to believe that is that large of a percentage of them, especially when 90% of all the lesbians i have met were exactly the same as a straight girl except they liked women. I believe a LOT of what is done is trying to act in the way that is seemingly socially acceptable to them.

It not that they don't conform to what is normal (i hate muscle bound twats who only talk about cars aswell) its that they entirely conform to the opposite. Its the concious act of deciding to be that far out there that bugs me. Totally conforming to what people expect you should be just makes you a dull individual.

The overly flamboyant nature was just a tool to express their sexual orientation and be proud of themselves at a time when nobody was, it was a way to stand up for your fellow gay and show you were the same. But they are accepted now, their doesnt need to be a big statement or any big show for attention.

AND THAT DAMN ACCENT, it annoys me on a science level because its the only non-geographic accent on the PLANET which exists purely to draw attention to an aspect of yourself. I mean its a staple of insecurity when you need to go around making sure people know exactly how you are just by your sound.

Probably best you don't requote this don't want a flame war.

I'm going to repeat. NOT ALL FEM GAY MEN DO THIS FOR ATTENTION. Many, if not most of them, are simply FEMININE ACTING.

You keep harping on the stereotypes. Yeah, they are more feminine acting. They may have the lisp. They may wear pink and work in fashion. But you keep acting as if these men choose to act like this, all of the time. That it's a constant act. That's ridiculous. Now, one can ask, are these men this way naturally, or have they been socially conditioned to behave this way. That's a different argument in totality. But subconsciously acting more fem is not the same as choosing to do so for attention. Plenty of straight men have a lisp too. Plenty of masculine gays have some feminine characteristics. Lesbians have their characteristics too, but most don't even care to notice, since most really don't care about lesbians. But you just don't like it when these men don't act like what men are supposed to act. You have this idea that men are like _________. But there are no GUIDELINES for what it means to behave as a man. There is NO such thing as acting straight or acting gay.

And to say that gay people are accepted now, is false. There is gaining acceptance. There is not "acceptance". Not when half of the countries of US and slightly less than half in the UK are against marriage equality. Not when hate crimes are on the increase in many countries. Acceptance needs to increase, and the only way that happens is by educating the masses.

no i have an idea that men/women SHOULD BE THEMSELVES. Acting into a stereotype ANY stereotype reduces individuality something each person should be very proud to have. And the reason i see it s acting into it is because people act into all kinds of stereotypes, from lonely gamers to depressed goths. Being yourself is what i take issue with here. And odds are against most of them being that similar. The outside influence being that is how they are expected to behave, and they don't question it. So yeah keep quoting me with anger if you want. I want people to be the best they can be as individuals buying into a mass identity is not that.

I have spoken to psychologists and sociologists about this and the responses i got were predominantly that gender roles perpetuated by society and television were defining them more than anything biologically. Don't know any biologists but I'll be sure to ask one when i meet one.

(footnote they may not consciously be doing it, but to have created a persona based off of television or societal expectation (even subconsciously) shows (to me) a lack of breaking the mould, or striving for individuality. Which is all we really have as human beings)

It's not acting into a stereotype. It is NOT a stereotype. It's who people ARE. Is that hard to understand. It shouldn't be. I'm not angry, I'm frustrated, you are like a brick wall. It's not an act, it's not a calculated move, it's simply what some people identify as.

Again, whether all fem-acting gays are such way because they have been socially conditioned or because that's what they came out the womb as, is a different argument all together. But PLENTY of men, gay and straight, show feminine traits at a younger age. It's not a complete side show. It's reality. Ultimately, if it HURTS NO-ONE, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? It doesn't AFFECT you unless you let it. So YOU should stop being affected by it.

And, if a person is subconsciously acting in such way, obviously, it's not a creation of a persona, it's a persona that they developed and which they have become and identified as. To say that shows a lack of individuality isn't really the case. They are simply individuals who choose to express their individuality in a way that is different than others choose to. It's not about breaking the mold, it's about, are you comfortable in your own skin? Are you a real person? Do you accept yourself? If you're answering yes, that's what matters.

umm aside from the rest of the argument. There is a gay stereotype.It exists and a lot of gay men are that stereotype. Are you seriously trying to argue that that doesn't exist. Because it really does no matter how much you want to deny that. Whether or not they were born into it is a different thing which depends on what you believe (id much rather believe we have responsibility for our outcomes in life).

And aside from all that, your missing the crucial thing im taking issue with, im not taking issue with having some or a lot of the traits associated with it. Im taking issue with people that fully define themselves by said traits. Anybody who doesn't look beyond whats laid out straight infront of them for experiences in life is close minded. A trait i wish to have nothing to do with.

Here is the point. It's a "stereotype", but I should clarify what I meant, it's not just some fake created "hey look, that dude is gay, look at how he acts and dresses!" It's not like all blacks eat cornbread, or all women love shopping. No, it's a REAL way of being. A real sense of self. A lot of gay men do fit it, which is why it isn't a stereotype in that sense. It's not an act.

You are saying that these feminine gays fully define themselves by their femininity. But they don't. They are just feminine. They don't define themselves as anything, they don't classify themselves. They just are what they are.

We could say the SAME things about guys who are sports oriented. (Not all of them) They aren't actively defining or being something. They just are more into sports. They just are more masculine. You keep thinking that it's an act to be a fem gay, but for many of them if not most, it isn't whatsoever, and it's offensive to say it is.

i do say the same thing about people who do sports to that degree, if all you do is spend all your time in the gym and know different weight lifting techniques then you are also one dimensional and i'll have nothing to do with that. If you pour too much into any one area of your life to the detriment of others its a universally bad thing, just like if i was Only into movies, or only into games, id be horribly boring. But im not i try sport i go hiking i learn languages i read i photograph. Putting yourself out there to experience the world is something everyone should do, life is too short not to be living.

I agree with what you're saying, but everything you're identifying are acts. Being feminine is not an act, it's who people are in many cases. That's the difference.

 

[Riff Moonraker]

I find it interesting that you are, and I quote, "an immoral bigot" if you DONT support homosexuality. Yet, its perfectly ok to slam christians, and slam people if they personally do not agree with it. People slamming my religion and calling me an immoral bigot offends me, and its wrong. If I WAS one, that would be something different, but I am most certainly not.

Well then maybe you should understanding why thinking lesbians and gay are beneath you is a bad idea... after all it always comes back to you in some form. THEN, you see why people get upset when ignorant statements are made about their sexual orientation and why they need to go hide it away from people who find it intolerable. If you're so offended (in a society that is largely Protestant Christian)then perhaps you should heed your own creeds words "Don't judge people, lest you be judged" and "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you".

So, let me get this straight... if I dont support it, that automatically means I think they are BENEATH me?? I guess that means that if I support the 360, but dont support the PS3, I think all PS3 users are beneath me. I guess that means that if I dont care for asparagus, then everyone that eats it is beneath me. How asinine can you be? I dont look down on anyone for their choices, I simply do not care for it myself. I have enough intelligence and maturity to be able to have my own decisions but realize that other peoples choices and decisions are their own, and by no means does that make me better than them for it.

Please, by all means, tell me when I judged someone else in my statements. I simply gave my personal opinion, as to which I am completely entitled to. The problems start when people begin to act as if their PERSONAL opinion is FACT, and then assume anyone without that opinion is beneath them. I never did that.

You, on the other hand.....

 

[101flyboy]

The truth of the situation is, a lot of people, an increasing amount, think it is immoral and quite frankly inhumane to be anti-gay. And to call sexual orientation a choice. A lot of people simply think it's unacceptable to be anti-gay, like it is unacceptable to be racist or sexist. So thinking that somehow you won't get heat for being anti-gay or holding a position that is not neutral/positive towards homosexuality/gay people, is either naive or ignorant. We all have our beliefs, but that doesn't make those beliefs acceptable.

 

[AnkaraTheFallen]

I appreciate that. What I hate is saying I'm Christian, then everyone getting on their high horses telling me what they think I believe in.

In general the whole "Gay vs Not-Gay" thing is never going to resolve because you are trying to redefine morality, which is something that you cannot do... Period. The extremist Christians are trying to place their concept of morality on everyone, and the extremist gay/lesbian community (Yes they do exist) is trying to force everyone to change their view of morality. Neither side is right, neither side will win.

I say let the free world do what it will, because it's not my job as a Christian to try and make the world some sort of "Heaven on Earth". I worship, and I give testimony for people who want to hear it. Those are the ONLY two jobs of a Christian in my perspective. It's only when BOTH SIDES start lump summing everyone together or yaking on about how they're right and no one else's opinion matters.
That's what gets on my nerves. NO ONE is willing to compromise.

Sadly I have to admit there are the extremists on our side as well, and the way they act actually hurts their cause more than it helps.
The majority of gay people just want to be treated like everyone else and left alone. But until the extremist people stop trying to shove their ideas in peoples faces we wont be. It's annoying that such people often scream about how they feel like religious people try to force their ideas on to others and then are doing it themselves. But again this is thankfully the minority of us.

 

[Riff Moonraker]

The truth of the situation is, a lot of people, an increasing amount, think it is immoral and quite frankly inhumane to be anti-gay. And to call sexual orientation a choice. A lot of people simply think it's unacceptable to be anti-gay, like it is unacceptable to be racist or sexist. So thinking that somehow you won't get heat for being anti-gay or holding a position that is not neutral/positive towards homosexuality/gay people, is either naive or ignorant. We all have our beliefs, but that doesn't make those beliefs acceptable.

It makes it no more or less acceptable than yours. I would understand it if I was for name calling, violence, or anything that could be construed as seeing them as lesser people than myself, but thats not what I am saying at all. Again, just because I am personally against it does NOT equivilate into any of those things. Its no different than if you are for or against tattoos. You might not want them on your body, but if someone else wants to do it to theirs, then more power to them. (Just an example... I have multiple tats, so I am obviously for them)

Anyone that wishes to belittle, harrass, or harm anyone else simply based off the persons color, gender, beliefs, or sexual orientation deserves to get a boot to the head, pure and simple. I would never condone, nor support anything of that nature. All I am simply saying, is that I dont agree with it. There is a vast difference between what is being suggested, and what I am saying.

Let me put it another way... would I treat someone differently just because that was their choice? Absolutely not. If my best friend was gay, he would continue to be my best friend. Its not my cup of tea, but I would never mistreat anyone over something like that. I guess thats the point I am trying to make, and that seems to me to be going over some peoples heads. I stand by my choices, but I dont stand on other people with my choices.

I'm done trying to explain it, though. If people cant understand my point of view from this, then its just a waste of their and my time.

 

[AnkaraTheFallen]

I'd just like to clarify for a lot of people out there saying they don't care if someone is gay, so long as they are attracted to them. Most gay people can tell if your gay as well... they have 'gaydar' for lack of a better term.
Sorry to those of you who say this as a joke or whatever, but I'm tired of being told by friends and even strangers that they don't care that I'm gay they just don't want me being attracted to them, just cause we're gay doesn't mean we like everyone of the same sex, just as straight people don't like everyone of the opposite sex.
Thank you to the people that understand this and treat us like everyone else, as I've said before that's all the majority of gay people want.

 

[StarStruckStrumpets]

It's not so much that...It's people that play on it and are overly dramatic about their sexuality. I know two guys that are gay, but they're just like you or me. They live together, but if you ever saw them in town, they'd look like they were just two friends, and when asked if they're a couple, they just say "yeah".

Basically "I'm gay, deal with it" attitude.

The problem is that you're making assumptions that people are who more fem are INTENTIONALLY more fem acting because they want attention. Maybe they just aren't gender conforming. Maybe they are simply naturally more flamboyant. Not everyone is going to be cut from the same cloth, some people are naturally more exuberant than others. As long as that exuberance doesn't harm you directly, it isn't an issue.

Being gay is NOT a lifestyle. And no, the whole behind closed doors thing doesn't work. Gay people are gay inside and outside of their houses. It's not about them hiding their gayness, it's about your issues surrounding it and moving past them. And moving past your gender stereotypical mentality of what men "should" act like. There are no guidelines on being a man. Your basically saying gay people should act "normal", act like regular guys, basically be straight acting. But they are gay, and not all gay men are straight acting. So you sort of have to move on and get over it.

i think its more that as soon as people see gay men in particular acting in that cartoonish stereotype perpetuated by shows like will and grace almost instantly you lose some credibility, as you feel it (or it appears that you feel it) is more important to play into a stereotypical example of what you should be rather than what you are. And there are also people who intentionally too far that way to get attention.

Any person who entirely defines themselves by what it is considered their gender role should be like isn't somebody i want to know because they have no thought process.

(footnote i dont mind little bits of flamboyance that come with the territory but there has to be some substance to the individual. I would similarly dismiss females who slut up and only talk about clothes boys and clubbing)

But, again, that doesn't mean people do not act fem or are more flamboyant naturally. Because they do. It's not about being a stereotype for many of these men.

Everything you're saying is said by a lot of masculine gays, too. Oh, they give gay people a bad image. Why? Because they don't conform to what is considered normal. It's not a thought process for a lot of these fem gays. It's just that fact they are more feminine, and people can't handle that because it's like they are going against the "man code." It doesn't mean these gays are like, oh, well I'm going to go out of my way to show everyone how gay I can really be. They simply express themselves in a different manner. It's the same way anyone else expresses themselves, it's just different, rather than expressing themselves in a masculine demeanor, they do so in a more feminine way.

You should honestly get to know these people before automatically condemning them.

It's got nothing to do with their sexuality though, I can't stand those kinds of people. While I didn't explain myself clearly in that regard, it is how I feel. Whether straight or gay, male or female, I don't like flamboyant, gossipy and loud people. I suppose you're right about the gender conforming, it's something that is an issue of mine, not theirs, and I accept that, but unfortunately when talking about issues like this, you can't talk about the individuals within the gay demographic.

They've been roped into stereotypes, just like anyone else. The "Camp Gay" is exactly what I'm talking about, it's a stereotype I'm using because I can't talk about individual people, it just doesn't work when trying to give a general view. I don't like people of that nature regardless of gender or sexuality, but when I've grown to dislike the stereotype of the "Camp Gay" not because I have anything against them in their sexuality, but because the stereotype dictates that is how they act, which is why a lot of people seem to think being gay if a lifestyle.

Put simply, I'm sure Gok Wan is a perfectly nice guy, but I just couldn't befriend someone of such a fruity nature. It'd really irritate me. And when I said "behind closed doors", I wasn't saying "be gay at home". I just mean that what people do in the privacy of their own home is of no concern to me. I understand there are those in the world that are ignorant, and should know that being gay is perfectly acceptable, but you don't need to do anything other than write on a sign to do it. Most of them are old, religious people anyway and they'll cark it sooner of later.

 

[Riff Moonraker]

I appreciate that. What I hate is saying I'm Christian, then everyone getting on their high horses telling me what they think I believe in.

In general the whole "Gay vs Not-Gay" thing is never going to resolve because you are trying to redefine morality, which is something that you cannot do... Period. The extremist Christians are trying to place their concept of morality on everyone, and the extremist gay/lesbian community (Yes they do exist) is trying to force everyone to change their view of morality. Neither side is right, neither side will win.

I say let the free world do what it will, because it's not my job as a Christian to try and make the world some sort of "Heaven on Earth". I worship, and I give testimony for people who want to hear it. Those are the ONLY two jobs of a Christian in my perspective. It's only when BOTH SIDES start lump summing everyone together or yaking on about how they're right and no one else's opinion matters.
That's what gets on my nerves. NO ONE is willing to compromise.

Sadly I have to admit there are the extremists on our side as well, and the way they act actually hurts their cause more than it helps.
The majority of gay people just want to be treated like everyone else and left alone. But until the extremist people stop trying to shove their ideas in peoples faces we wont be. It's annoying that such people often scream about how they feel like religious people try to force their ideas on to others and then are doing it themselves. But again this is thankfully the minority of us.

Unfortunately, though, it seems the minority always makes the most noise. (on any side)

 

[Terminal Blue]

sounds a bit like youve a persecution complex there mate

I wonder why.

Whilst I have no subjective or empirical data to back up my claim, from a casual standpoint human societies generally expect men to be physically strong and mentally hardy- when something is that ubiquitous a relatively safe assumption would be in there being a genetic component, either directly or indirectly.

No, that's wrong.

History is replete with examples of societies where the opposite has been true. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that taken worldwide emotional sensibility has played a larger role in distinguishing elite men from non-elite men than physical strength ever did, and if the point of masculinity is not to determine a male ideal then what is it?

The kind of societies which ethnographers tend to get a massive boner for and (quite unfairly) view as most representative of underlying social principles generally expect everyone to be strong and mentally hardy. The social understanding that women can afford to be weak and frail is a product of larger scale social organizations which 'tribes' and hunter/gatherer groups don't tend to have. You can't have a definition of masculinity unless it functions as a binary opposition to femininity.

I honestly do not get why you seem so intent on tearing apart an inconsequential instinctive reaction- do you really think your high handed indignation will somehow alter it?

Because it's not an instinctive reaction. It's one of the few points which might actually be altered if you weren't so narrow minded about it.

The homophobic people. I'm just waiting for them to die and expecting them to shut up until they do. They will die, and eventually I hope some generation of their children grows up in recognition of their stupidity. Even if I could, it's not my responsibility or that of any LGBT person to grant epiphany to entrenched homophobes, but I know their children will grow up in a very different world and that's enough for me.

The fact that I'm arguing with you should be a reasonably clear indication that I think you're still worth talking to. If you want to dispute that, then fine. I'll leave you alone. I'm interested by your logic, both because it's quite prevalent and because it's quite flawed. You can't inflect natural tendencies from cultural traits. I'm calling you up on it so that hopefully you can explain yourself and I can see why and how you think as you do. It's interesting and useful in a way debating with any of the entrenched homophobes on this site has not been.

 

[Gigano]

It is of no ethical consequence whatsoever, and thus I certainly support its right to exist and be practised freely; as I do any choice within the scope of harmless plurality.

I really couldn't care less about who consenting adults take to their bed. And I have nothing but contempt for those who do think it's somehow their business.