Poll: I want to change the Gamer reputation.

Pirate Of PC Master race

Rambles about half of the time
Jun 14, 2013
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Davroth said:
Also make absolutely sure there is nothing in his closet that could be seen as skeletons. If you build a group around a leader, and that leader falls victim to character assassination, the whole thing falls apart like a house of cards.
Well, we all know that is impossible, everyone has secrets. If there isn't one, someone will make it.
If that cannot be done, his/her quote will be taken out of context. Private contraventions surrounding such leader cannot be avoided.

That being said, as long as that leader does not have the alter of Satan with skeletons of newborn babies and their mother, I am fine with it. I don't want perfection. I want improvement.(which probably is not good for my mental health overall.)
 

Davroth

The shadow remains cast!
Apr 27, 2011
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Pirate Of PC Master race said:
Davroth said:
Also make absolutely sure there is nothing in his closet that could be seen as skeletons. If you build a group around a leader, and that leader falls victim to character assassination, the whole thing falls apart like a house of cards.
Well, we all know that is impossible, everyone has secrets. If there isn't one, someone will make it.
If that cannot be done, his/her quote will be taken out of context. Private contraventions surrounding such leader cannot be avoided.

That being said, as long as that leader does not have the alter of Satan with skeletons of newborn babies and their mother, I am fine with it. I don't want perfection. I want improvement.(which probably is not good for my mental health overall.)
Not so sure that's good enough. I have seen people scoop to unbelievable lows in an attempt to discredit people based on their past.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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grassgremlin said:
Thread Updates.

I've created a group. Approval is required for anyone who wants to join.
The codename for our group is #IStandForBatboy created by @ZacharyAmaranth
It's inspired by Weekly World News coverage of Batboy, a fictional mascot for the tabloid news.
Batboy stands for Journalistic Revolution!

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/IStandForBatboy
You flatter me, sir or madam. I cyberly tip my cyberhat to you.
 

grassgremlin

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Aug 30, 2014
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Zachary Amaranth said:
grassgremlin said:
Thread Updates.

I've created a group. Approval is required for anyone who wants to join.
The codename for our group is #IStandForBatboy created by @ZacharyAmaranth
It's inspired by Weekly World News coverage of Batboy, a fictional mascot for the tabloid news.
Batboy stands for Journalistic Revolution!

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/IStandForBatboy
You flatter me, sir or madam. I cyberly tip my cyberhat to you.
Some people just have the best ideas. ;3
 

Pirate Of PC Master race

Rambles about half of the time
Jun 14, 2013
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Davroth said:
Not so sure that's good enough. I have seen people scoop to unbelievable lows in an attempt to discredit people based on their past.
I guess this is the point where I need to depend on internet's *hurk* goodwill and *geck* intelligence.

I'd rather prefer people ignoring such things like how they automatically blocks out typical gossip magazine headlines, but it won't happen and the leader must take responsibility for his/her past. I expect good things from such events. One, he/she can apology for his/her past actions, making immature attackers look like twats and two, oppression only makes oppressed organization stronger[citation needed].

Besides, it is lot better for the image of the gamers when the hate is concentrated on the few people(or, who will be crucified) rather than each other.
 

Belaam

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Nov 27, 2009
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grassgremlin said:
1) Discuss ethics and what we can do to get sites to change and clearly define there policies.
Definitely need a manifesto, or at least a mission statement. GG is kind of a mess and I think that's half of the "that person doesn't represent GG/isn't a GGer!" problems: as is, GG seems to involve half a dozen concepts, some of which are contradictory. (e.g. "give reviews gamers want" and "avoid feminist critiques" are contradictory because some gamers want feminist critique of games)

3) End Review Scores. Review Scores are flawed and have only caused divisiveness among the masses.
I'm not sure how feasible this will be as it is so common for film, literature and music reviews. You will always get consumers who are not interested in reading full reviews, but rather just a simple score. They are generally aware that different publications grade on different rubrics (i.e. Entertainment Weekly wants to get interviews and on-set photo shoots so their reviews tend to be extremely kind - their "C"s are usually a steaming pile).

5) We will try to make sure video games are being discussed on the subject OF video games without trying to destroy alternative critiques. We will promote critique on video game mechanics.

9) @notthebees has suggested that we can rally to create a website.
This seems the easiest to implement and the oddest to me that it has not been done. Buy a domain, make and publicize a site specific code of ethics for submitted articles, and start off with a simple forum thread format where only authors can start threads with their reviews. Once you get the hits, you can start selling ad space. I keep hearing that GG is hostage to a vocal minority, so it seems like a GG review site should do well.

8) Extract ourselves completely from Gamergate. Gamergate will not be mentioned or apart of our narrative.
Indeed. Find something without the hashtag activism and absurd -gate suffix. Creating a game review site would help oodles with that "Just Games: Transparent & Ethical Game Reviews" or the like.
 

COMaestro

Vae Victis!
May 24, 2010
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Want to improve gamers' reputation, I'll tell you how. Play games! Spread your love and enjoyment of games to others, man or woman, young or old, gay or straight or any other possible orientation, just all other people. Someone brings up GamerGate, pro or anti, you respond, "Gamer-what? I don't know and don't care what that is. I just want to play games!" When online or in person, insult nobody. If engaging in any kind of debate make it clear you are disagreeing with the person's idea, not the person themselves.

As far as journalistic integrity or whatever, anyone who relies on only one review to tell them if a game is good or enjoyable or not is behaving foolishly, unless they have always agreed with that reviewer before. If you want to get a good gist of a game, ignore all info given before the game is released. That's just hype and not worth your time. Look at a variety of reviews after it has been released, good and bad. And READ the review, don't just skip to the score and read the highlights. Watch some LP's in order to get a feel for how the game looks and controls. Then make your decision on whether or not the game is worth your time. And always remember that the reviewer is putting forth their OPINION. PERIOD! There is no such thing as an objective review, and if the review is TOO subjective for you, then DON'T read that reviewers work anymore as it obviously isn't for you. There is no global conspiracy of game journalists so you will always be able to find dissenting opinions for any game.
 

GloatingSwine

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Servetus said:
But let me clear, I'm not saying Feminism is "wrong"...I think feminist critiques in gaming are fine. Heck, I may disagree with Anita, for example, but I will vigorously defend her right to open make those critiques because I find discourse to be a pillar of civil society. But this requires that I ALSO allow for counter movements and critiques without viewing them as inherently evil, or vile. And the fact that the media has tried to illustrate ANY criticism of Feminism AS that? Is part of the problem.
Depends on the nature of the counter movement, doesn't it.

Attempting to actually engage with the arguments would be fine, but no-one actually does that with Anita, even the responses that do address the content of the videos not the person making them tend towards style over substance fallacies ("zomg she didn't record all her own gameplay video" as if that was even vaguely related to the points being made) or strawmanning based on the weakest arguments presented (especially focusing on single examples like Hitman where the argument is actually "all of these examples together create a context which is bad").

So y'know, actually engaging with a feminist critique of videogames would be a breath of fresh air, but no-one ever does.

(And it's not like her arguments are even wrong, if specific tropes are as amazingly prevelant as, say the damsel in distress it's because videogame writers are lazy hacks who need a kick up the arse, feminist critique or no. I mean I've been replaying Ninja Gaiden 2 and the main female character gets kidnapped twice throughout the story and I'm not even sure why, I mean the villains don't seem to particularly want anything from her, they just kidnap her because of reasons.)
 

Belaam

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Nov 27, 2009
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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
The problem with Gamergate is not its values. Its against the sickening wave of political correctness,
So it's not about fair, impartial reviews, but stopping any discussion of people who might not like how a particular demographic is presented in gaming? To say nothing as to why feminism in particular seems to be having a resurgence at the movie theater and iTunes without the severity of pushback that it is getting in gaming.

The problem is that the gaming industry has been a constant case where knocking something off the current path has always put the quality of games on a worse state. Because of this, gamers have a nature to be fairly hostile to every person or group that tries to cause problems or change,
Um... citation needed. I've been a gamer since my Atari 2600 and Commodore 64 days and I would absolutely disagree with this. I'd say that if anything, there is less inclusiveness in options. The first Tenchu stealth/assassination game in '98 gave you male and female assassin options in in't primary console version of the game. All nine since have had that as well. AC still hasn't managed that in a console game. If anything, the change seems to be going in the opposite direction you think it is.

which thankfully is the main thing that has previously and has successfully pushed out this horrible wave of political correctness that pollutes modern society.
Aside from the eyeroll this so rightly deserves, I'm at a loss as to how to even respond to this. Feminist, Racial, or Marxist analysis of art is not even remotely a new thing. "Political Correctness" as a boogeyman for "views with which I disagree" is just absurd.

cannot escape the nature of gamers,
The thing is, neither you, nor I, get to arbitrarily define "gamers" or their "nature". Playing identity politics for your foes while deriding political correctness is just nuts.

to end this hostility that permeates within gamers is to lose everything Gamergate, under all the hate, fought for.
Um... thanks for making the point that GG fought for hostility. It's nice to hear someone admitting that it's a key component instead of running with the victimhood trope. I still have that issue with you seeming to believe that you get to define "gamers" though.

the third wave feminism movement, one of the most hypocritical and hateful movements outside of the fucking white supremacist groups
Oh, I'd put the Men's Rights Movement as far more toxic that Feminism. They're the PETA of positive stated goals and absolute monstrosity in how they actually behave and try to carry out those goals. But then again, I also think that there is much confusion about the differences between Feminism and Feminist Analysis, or even what either of them say. IF only based on the occasional GG cries of "Feminists want to ban our games!" without any real evidence of that.
 

Geo88

Nerdy Wordsmith
Jul 20, 2010
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Belaam said:
5) We will try to make sure video games are being discussed on the subject OF video games without trying to destroy alternative critiques. We will promote critique on video game mechanics.

9) @notthebees has suggested that we can rally to create a website.
This seems the easiest to implement and the oddest to me that it has not been done. Buy a domain, make and publicize a site specific code of ethics for submitted articles, and start off with a simple forum thread format where only authors can start threads with their reviews. Once you get the hits, you can start selling ad space. I keep hearing that GG is hostage to a vocal minority, so it seems like a GG review site should do well.
Damn it, someone beat me to it. Well-said.

To the OP: If you want to save what is perhaps the only worthwile aspect of GamerGate (increased journalistic ethics and standards), it's as simple as that. Start a magazine/review website. (I'll be calling it a magazine just for the sake of brevity.)

Taking it a bit further:

A magazine solves a ton of problems. First, it provides clear leadership. You have a publisher and/or an editor-in-chief at the top. These people are the head honchos who keep people on schedule and on task. Then, you could have various assistant editors. Feature editor, review editor, news editor, etc.

If you just wanted to do reviews, that's fine, too. I'd recommend a copy editor as well to provide a consistent feel and style while allowing each reviewer to maintain his or her own voice. Then, you've got your writers. The writers would obviously be a bit more specialized. You could have an RPG reviewer, a shooter reviewer, an indie reviewer, one who does strategy games and so on. You could have several of each. In fact, you probably will because they'll be buying the games themselves.

Heck, the editors/writers could form an editorial board and talk about issues in gaming. It'd probably be a bit fluffy most of the time, but when shit actually goes down (like Jeff Gerstmann's firing, for example), it would provide a platform to speak from.

Second, it provides for a manifesto. Right up top, there should be a link as to what you want the publication to be about. You can define the publication's review philosophy ("if there is even the slightest possibility of a conflict of interest, reveal it up front." "Judge games solely on the content they bring, not 'what could or should have been,'" for example) and outline the scoring system. What does a 1 mean? What does a 5 mean? What does a 10 mean? The bullet points at the top of the user group are a solid start. I'd recommend taking some pointers from the Society of Professional Journalists ethics code. Personally, I think the publisher/editor-in-chief should be a trained journalist who understands the code and how it applies to the real world.

Third, it's productive, not destructive. Rather than spamming advertisers because of perhaps objectionable content, which I would consider indirect, consumer-based censorship, the group is being the change they want to see. Who knows? Maybe the group can get a crowdfunding thing going to get some cash up front. Hire a webmaster to keep things nice and pretty. Then, if readers like it, they can donate. I'm not sure if that's the sort of thing Patreon would support (haven't done the research), but there's nothing stopping the magazine from putting up a donate button and paying its contributors.

It's the reason I'm a Publishers Club member for The Escapist. I like this website, and I don't ever want them to be in the position of having to bow to advertisers' whims. The only way to guarantee that is to monetarily support them myself.

But anyway, that's how I think this could be salvaged. The GamerGate name would have to be dropped. It's just got too much baggage hanging onto it, I think. The wider world would just turn its eyes off if a GamerGate magazine started up.

But IS4BB (shorthand) could be a positive step forward toward meaningful change.

Addition/edit: Though, if something like this become a publication, I'd change the name. Probably to something game related. Just my two cents.
 

runic knight

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Mar 26, 2011
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grassgremlin said:
Well, laudable goal you have of trying to tackle the chief complaint gamergate has against journalists in a way separate from journalists. I think it will fail horribly for several reasons, but I do appreciate the intent behind it.

Not sure I like all your points too much though.

1) Discuss how to improve ethics: Great point, very important.

2) Redefine gamer: No, just enforce the actual the definition. Re-defining suggests the definition changed. It hasn't, it has always remained the same, it is just some people wanted to bastardize language for easy demagoguery.

3) End review scores: Sadly not going to happen and not a worthwhile fight. Scores exist for the lazy to do a quick glance check, and as a comparison to other games on the market. They been around forever, they aren't likely to go away from publication reviews. Hell, even youtube style reviews still use them, such as Angry Joe. At best, I would suggest separating technical skill scores from moral or ideological complaints towards the game when doing scores. Games should be judged on their own merits anyways, not how well they fit within an ideological purity test. And reviews, and by extension scores, exist solely for the audience's benefit. Therefore it makes it even less useful to devalue a score for failing an ideological purity test when not all audience would share that ideological stance and thus it is intentionally tanking a game's score for personal belief rather then relative quality to other games in similar settings or technical execution of skill.

It is like rating a movie poorly because it has an actor who you dislike the politics of, rather then the movie's quality itself.

4) Review relative to own kind. Sort of ties into the above, though I kinda agree. If you are doing score comparisons (and you have to deal with them one way or another a lot of the time), then among games of the same or similar genre, there should be consistency of higher score relating to better execution of the game along technical aspects (mechanics, story, visual appeal, etc). But I think this is not very often an issue until and unless you get people judging games along ideological bents who forget the point of a review is for the audience's sake, not the writer's personal causes.

5) Discuss video games on video games: This may surprise a lot of people, but I disagree. When it comes to discussion of video games, all topics are open. Hell, you want to talk about the sexism in the industry or whatever else, more power to you. You will be challenged and argued with, but the right to do so is there and should be encouraged.

When it comes to reviews, they are meant as a guide to inform the audience in relation to them buying the product. As such, they should be done in the way best able to inform about the quality of the product and the likelihood that people buying the product will like it (when it comes to games, this would relate far more to the technical side of things for most people as history itself has shown that a good game mechanic or story will outweigh a lot of crap, such as poor graphics, character design or even political lean).

But when it comes to discussion itself, then all gloves are off. A discussion can be all about a person pushing an ideological view onto a product and arguing it just fine. And so long as it is not abusing the authority invested in them as reviewers or journalists to do so (such as by, say, using a review and scoring system to judge products on how well they fit an ideological narrative) and instead make the distinction clearly separate (like posting in forums for instance, or to a lesser degree using very clearly marked and known of opinion sections of a publication).

6) Attack critic without saying it is an attack on character. Yeah, this should be so hands down. The less peopl attack criticisms as being "you are just misogyny", the better everyone will be.

7) Don't call out only the press: I see a point often thrown at gamergate that we aren't going after the big dogs. The problems there in are two fold. 1st, it is an outright lie when you realize TotalBiscuit was the one who outed the Mordor thing, and 2nd in order to properly go after the big dogs, gamers need to be informed. That requires a media that can be trusted to be in the best interest of the audience. Which we don't have at the moment. Hence gamergate itself.

I agree we need to call out all corruption, but until we as the audience have a trustworthy representative voice in the news media from which we can be informed and who will actually investigate, going after the big dogs will end up the same as it did with the ME 3 debacle with gamers, not the publications being attacked for daring to speak out. Or when the first signs of something nefarious going down with ZQ leading to gaming press to attack those asking questions.

Bottom line, we need journalism fixed first to make more headway into other corruption.

8) Distance yourself from gamergate: Good luck. This was why I say this will probably fail miserably. We tried to distance ourselves from the lies and slander before in taking the gamergate tag instead of the quinnspiracy tag. It did not work as those implicated still lied and slandered and attacked.

If you really care about this idea and want to see it succeed, I wish you luck. Hell, if it can work I will be right there, fighting the same fight I have from the start. But if you want to ever test just what will happen when you try to start exploring the corruption, just start asking them questions about the unethical and unprofessional behavior. Actually push for the same sort of unethical and unprofessional issues raised and see how you get treated in reply. Even if you publicly decry gamergate, prepare for the same reception gamergate got.



All that said, and I know it is discouraging I imagine, if you want to push for better journalism and to clean up this mess, I have found this online.

http://www.thesentinelwire.com/

Seems o be someone wanting to start up a journalistic watchdog thing.
 

GrumbleGrump

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I think it's a awful, awful. The simple fact that you're trying to create an analogous movement free of GG's corruption is futile. Nothing really stops trolls or idiots from joining it, thus poisoning it just like GG. Eventually you'll just end up like GamerGate 2: Game Gatier.

Sorry mang, but this shit won't fly.
 

grassgremlin

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Aug 30, 2014
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GrumbleGrump said:
I think it's a awful, awful. The simple fact that you're trying to create an analogous movement free of GG's corruption is futile. Nothing really stops trolls or idiots from joining it, thus poisoning it just like GG. Eventually you'll just end up like GamerGate 2: Game Gatier.

Sorry mang, but this shit won't fly.
That won't matter with this new announcement. A change of direction.

This is a completely different and independent creation seperate from Gamergate from this post on.
You guys can refresh to check edits to the rules. While this is open to gamergaters interested to support it, it's in itself an entirely different creation.

Thank you. Also, it'll only fail if we quit.
 

Callate

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Dec 5, 2008
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grassgremlin said:
What we will not do.

1) Send death threats or attack women.
2) Rally against social justice and feminism. This is about video games not political issues!


I'm willing to discuss how we can get the point of cross. I made these points on the fly and willing to dispute them to better define them.

Suggested Hashtags
#Istandforbatboy
Suggestion:

I would change number one to something like "We will not threaten or engage in violence, reveal personal information that might be used for threatening and/or illegal activity, or commit acts of cyber-vandalism intended to thwart the communication of others' views, towards anybody. Anyone who does engage in these acts does so in complete defiance of our mission, should not be considered a part of it, and does so despite our explicit disapproval."

That is: Threatening rape or assault is also wrong. Threatening men is also wrong. Leaking information that might enable others in doing such acts ("doxxing") is also wrong. Trying to silence people you disagree with through cyber-attacks is also wrong (trying to reduce the public profile of opinions you disagree with through legal measures such as contacting advertisers, creating petitions, or calling/writing in to voice counter-arguments will be tolerated, though not tacitly condoned).

And if two weeks later someone who conveniently calls themselves "Batboysrevenge08" threatens to murder someone and posts their address all over the Internet, all you need to do is point to your mission statement.
 

grassgremlin

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Aug 30, 2014
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Callate said:
grassgremlin said:
What we will not do.

1) Send death threats or attack women.
2) Rally against social justice and feminism. This is about video games not political issues!


I'm willing to discuss how we can get the point of cross. I made these points on the fly and willing to dispute them to better define them.

Suggested Hashtags
#Istandforbatboy
Suggestion:

I would change number one to something like "We will not threaten or engage in violence, reveal personal information that might be used for threatening and/or illegal activity, or commit acts of cyber-vandalism intended to thwart the communication of others' views, towards anybody. Anyone who does engage in these acts does so in complete defiance of our mission, should not be considered a part of it, and does so despite our explicit disapproval."

That is: Threatening rape or assault is also wrong. Threatening men is also wrong. Leaking information that might enable others in doing such acts ("doxxing") is also wrong. Trying to silence people you disagree with through cyber-attacks is also wrong (trying to reduce the public profile of opinions you disagree with through legal measures such as contacting advertisers, creating petitions, or calling/writing in to voice counter-arguments will be tolerated, though not tacitly condoned).

And if two weeks later someone who conveniently calls themselves "Batboysrevenge08" threatens to murder someone and posts their address all over the Internet, all you need to do is point to your mission statement.
Thank you for the suggestion. I actually agree. Updating =3
 

t0ss

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Oct 25, 2014
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There is a lot of work to be done on this. I'd like to take part. But its 4am here and I should probably sleep for now. Just posting as a reminder to myself.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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GrumbleGrump said:
I think it's a awful, awful. The simple fact that you're trying to create an analogous movement free of GG's corruption is futile. Nothing really stops trolls or idiots from joining it, thus poisoning it just like GG. Eventually you'll just end up like GamerGate 2: Game Gatier.

Sorry mang, but this shit won't fly.
Having some sort of leadership or strictly defined doctrine already sets it apart from GG and to some extent mitigates the concept of trolls. GG thought of this as a strength, and it has like fifty thousand different definitions of what GG is "about." This is a problem, a problem seemingly most GGers don't wish to address as a problem.
 

veloper

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Jan 20, 2009
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Why have a movement at all? Isn't it good enough to be your own voice?

If you must have others to speak for you, then atleast pick just one prominent figure that you've known and agreed with for a long time. The alignment will not be 100%, but the message may still be coherent. Something you don't get with an unorganized mass under one banner.
 

GrumbleGrump

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Having some sort of leadership or strictly defined doctrine already sets it apart from GG and to some extent mitigates the concept of trolls.
grassgremlin said:
That won't matter with this new announcement. A change of direction.

This is a completely different and independent creation seperate from Gamergate from this post on.
You guys can refresh to check edits to the rules. While this is open to gamergaters interested to support it, it's in itself an entirely different creation.
So? What, you're thinking of interviewing every guy who wants to join like you're the army or something?

It doesn't matter if you want to take it away from the harassment or not, the damage has already been done. A loooooot of people have already decided on their views on gamers (if you're wondering, they think we're all twats). If you want to change that then fine, I hope you have a lot of money to donate and for an expensive PR agent, since that's the only way I think the twatheads will change their opinion.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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GrumbleGrump said:
A loooooot of people have already decided on their views on gamers (if you're wondering, they think we're all twats).
You know, the easiest way to change that is if people would stop getting all butthurt over every little thing. Yes, the damage has been done, and not just by trolls. "Gamergate" and its repeated dedication to flipping out at shadows and every imagined slight makes the trolls 100% redundant. Anyone who wants to think we're a bunch of "twats" as you put it needs only watch an Anita Sarkeesian video and then look at the disparity between that and the responses. Or look at the so-called "gamers are dead" articles and look at the disparity between them and the reaction, or the "good" done by Disrespectful nod, and so on....

So yeah. The damage has been done. By gamers. And it will continue to be done by gamers as long as nobody does anything.