Poll: Is Spec Ops: the Line overrated?

[DioWallachia]

If this game is so eye-opening, then where are all the ex-COD dudebros renouncing their brown people murder simulating ways?

Spec Ops is being praised by people who already hate the genre (thus are ecstatic to see their bias confirmed in all its narrow moral myopic glory) and critics eager to have another "games are art" talking point. Everyone agrees the gameplay is mediocre, some even going as far as to call it intentionally unenjoyable. Thus, what we're left with is people gladly paying 60 dollars for 6 hours of tedious gameplay for the sake or criticizing others for spending that amount on games they considered FUN with robust competitive online adding even more value.

How shrewd you all are.

You're like the fans of ME3 condemning Gears of War: judgmental against the product you're playing a pale imitation of for the story. I hate FPSes as much as the next asocial reject, but I don't need to pretend my taste is moral outrage.

I once said this to someone who told me this in this video:


"The game isn't just limited to itself, turning off the game isn't really an option the developers expect you to take. The game is making the point that the choices we have go beyond what's just in a game, but that we have a choice with the games we play, we don't have to play these types of games to begin with.

I can't believe I have to explain this to you when Campster already went over this. It sounds to me like you just haven't understood it, nor has the author of those articles."

"we don't have to play these types of games to begin with"

The only way the audience could know that the game would go to this length to tell us that "killing is wrong" is by........well, playing it. And the same could be said about the gameplay. By looking at Spec Ops trailers, one would assume its just another generic shoorter in 3rd person and nothing else. Same could be said about trailers of Deus Ex HR, with just that we cant really tell what kind of gameplay it would be, do we? so, how can we avoid "these types of games" unless we actually play them?

Also, you are assuming that people ALWAYS take the same route of confort and lazyness by picking up what is basically the same game over and over. Like if, somehow, we knew that Spec Ops was going to be like COD (masturbatory gunfest). Sure, the trailer didnt help, but people can just play the games they already have. When we buy something is because we want to experience something different, and we expected such thing from Spec Ops. But when we went in, we get insulted for shit we didnt do, because "we could have played OTHER kind of games but instead prefered the same crap as COD". But again, how could we know? didnt i bought this game for something DIFFERENT to COD to begin with? the message just missed by a mile.

The only people who would be affected by this game is the ones that are too afraid to buy other games for fear to be challenged, but if they do buy Spec Ops then the message falls appart.

-----------

snip

Its too dangerous to go alone. Take this:

In favor:

In opposition:
http://theshillinfield.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/spec-ops-the-line-is-a-bad-videogame/
http://theshillinfield.wordpress.com/2012/12/11/spec-ops-the-line-is-still-a-bad-videogame/#more-95

 

[mad825]

SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
There is a great line when after the squad realizes they killed innocent people, Lugo exclaims that "He turned us in to murderers," the voice acting for this line was very well directed, Lugo's inflection really helps show his character, he has been shooting people for the entire game but when they burned innocent people he realizes that this is the point he became a murderer. It brings up the debate as to whether or not soldiers are seen as murderers, a hot topic no matter what your stance.

I would be good, it would had impact if you could choose. The main reason why Lugo got so angry was because he said there was a choice when in fact there wasn't one because the game didn't allow you, refusing to use the mortar would result in a endless spawning of snipers.

 

[G-Force]

I would be good, it would had impact if you could choose. The main reason why Lugo got so angry was because he said there was a choice when in fact there wasn't one because the game didn't allow you, refusing to use the mortar would result in a endless spawning of snipers.

The only problem with that solution is that by negating the other choice players would see the use of the mortar as a forced choice and would still have issues.

Speaking of personal experience the use of WP was something I agreed with as during the scene I felt like I was "punishing the 33rd and had no issues of firing the moarter. Really when Walker said "you brought this upon yourself" I echoed his thoughts until the very end.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Possibly. I think it lived up to the hype, but I could see how other people would just find it decent or overrated. Not nearly as overrated as The Walking Dead though.

Agreed. Games should have good gameplay first and foremost. If they don't and it's just about the story, why am I playing a game? I'd rather read a book or watch a good movie because those are all about the story (unless it's a mindless action movie: Transformers and Avengers) and almost always do it better than a game.

Don't get me wrong. I still highly value story in games, just not as much as GAMEplay. A great story can make a game with mediocre gameplay pretty decent and that's kind of what I thought of those two games.

 

[mad825]

I would be good, it would had impact if you could choose. The main reason why Lugo got so angry was because he said there was a choice when in fact there wasn't one because the game didn't allow you, refusing to use the mortar would result in a endless spawning of snipers.

The only problem with that solution is that by negating the other choice players would see the use of the mortar as a forced choice and would still have issues.

Speaking of personal experience the use of WP was something I agreed with as during the scene I felt like I was "punishing the 33rd and had no issues of firing the moarter. Really when Walker said "you brought this upon yourself" I echoed his thoughts until the very end.

Erm, no. They would see the mortar as a easy and quicker choice rather than risking time and effort. Even then, the result of the using the mortar is bullshit as the civilians will get killed no matter what and they would go up like they were storing gasoline in the same place.

 

[RedDeadFred]

If this game is so eye-opening, then where are all the ex-COD dudebros renouncing their brown people murder simulating ways?

Spec Ops is being praised by people who already hate the genre (thus are ecstatic to see their bias confirmed in all its narrow moral myopic glory) and critics eager to have another "games are art" talking point. Everyone agrees the gameplay is mediocre, some even going as far as to call it intentionally unenjoyable. Thus, what we're left with is people gladly paying 60 dollars for 6 hours of tedious gameplay for the sake or criticizing others for spending that amount on games they considered FUN with robust competitive online adding even more value.

How shrewd you all are.

You're like the fans of ME3 condemning Gears of War: judgmental against the product you're playing a pale imitation of for the story. I hate FPSes as much as the next asocial reject, but I don't need to pretend my taste is moral outrage.

While I actually agree with your point I just wanted to say that I actually enjoy ME3's gameplay more than any Gears game. I've always felt like there isn't enough impact behind the guns in Gears but ME3 really nailed that for me. Plus, flying around the battle as a Vanguard is incredibly enjoyable. So personally, I think ME3 actually nailed its gameplay more than many other games.

 

[zumbledum]

it is overrated but thats ok because it was undervalued by the crowd. Its not the seminal classic some claim or the cathartic emotional journey others bill it as , but its so much more worthy then most of the tat out there that i am really ok with it.

 

[bullet_sandw1ch]

double post.

 

[bullet_sandw1ch]

When compared to other games SPEC OPS: The Line is the single greatest FPS I have played since Bioshock. A ride for the century. Because I seriously doubt we will see many others like this.

The Line is a game where choice is mostly hidden and not intuitive, a game that has evoked more emotions than say Walking Dead (a game where choice is commercially advocated to you, and yet always made irrelevant).

Nothing in The Walking Dead can be "discussed", nothing in this game besides a minute or two of episode 5 caused any feels at all, and they were all contrived, and predictable as all hell. You see Clems cap on the street, check the cardboards, and BOOM ZOMBIE!

Spec Ops: The Line has no commercially advocated or marketed choices and yet it allows you to make the most profoundly relevant and different choices I have seen for a long time. How to disperse a crowd of angry civvies, do you shoot the CIA agent begging for relief after he is trapped underneath a burning truck? What do you do, and what does it mean for you?

Personally I shot Konrad, and I surrendered my weapon. It made sense to get out of this elaborate purgatory. I came, I saw, I chose, and it was good. The fact that you can shoot these guys that come to fetch you and stay is amazing. The fact that Walker / the player can decided that he should pay the price of his actions in suicide is amazing. There is even a theory that Konrad is the guy inventing up a Captain Walker persona to escape his own guilt (supported by the fact that captain Walker is wearing Konrads clothes when they come to get him).

This game is not mainstream. This game is not overrated, and yet it is. This game is not fun, and yet it is compelling, interesting, engaging, profoundly awesome when compared with every other game of 2012.

The Line has set itself apart. It is the only game of 2012 that will remain relevant for many years to come, and those who can appreciate it sometimes only have the vocabulary to express that they feel it is better than. It is the first real attempt at being different. It is the only compelling argument of video games as art made in 2012.

first, to say that spec ops is the "only game of 2012 that will remain relevant" is bullshit.

ME3 concluded the best sci fi series of all time (flaws and all).
Dishonored gave you endless choices on how to tackle situations, even if the moral code system is predictable.
Far cry 3 gave unprecedented freedom for a open world game.
TWD created what could be argued as the video game industry's first truly believable cast of characters.
Borderlands 2 is currently the best loot grinding game on the market.
Max payne 3 has what could be the best 3rd person shooting in the genre.
Journey is the first game that could be truly labelled as art, and is spearheading the "games are art too" movement.

see what i mean? spec ops is an excellent game, albeit overrated (because of the constant praise), but it is not the only thing that 2012 will be remembered for.

also, to say it's the BEST FPS since bioshock (which was only excellent story wise) is a very... strange opinion, to say the least. see, the mechanics in the game are sub-par. other games (like the previously mentioned max payne 3) have the energy and fluidity that spec ops just dosent.

sorry if it seems like i attacked you, but i wanted to chime in, and i have no ill will with this.

 

[Naeras]

If this game is so eye-opening, then where are all the ex-COD dudebros renouncing their brown people murder simulating ways?

They're hanging out with the girls that stopped watching romantic comedies because some other movie that they had no interest in whatsoever explained how dumb, overdone and borderline psychotic the majority of romantic comedies tend to be.

 

[MidnightSt]

Okay, I liked Spec Ops. It was good, some of the time. However, every time it pops up on these forums people call it "A SHOW OF HOW OUR MEDIUM IS ART AND BETTER THAN MOVIES!!!!" I felt like the game was hindered by all the delays and a lower budget than it deserved. The gameplay was ok, just not standout.

The STORY IS NOT THE BEST.

I think I'm way too harsh, but maybe we were too easy.

haven't played it yet, just planning (I want to find some time when I'll be able to go through it whole without being disturbed by any people or thoughts), but from what I heard (Errant Signal's and Extra Credit's analyses) I don't think it's overrated.

1. gameplay was not meant to be standout, it was "ok" intentionally

2. the story alone was also not meant to be "the best".

3. "A how of how our medium is art and better than movies!" doesn't necessarily mean that the example itself MUST be art and better than movies and excellent

4. From what I understood, the main point was that it was a game where narrative and mechanics were not contradicting each other, the main strength of the game comes from them working together in a meaningful way, so judging them separately misses the point

5. It was one of the first "close to AAA" examples of how this can be done and used for the better, the game doesn't have to be perfect to make a strong and valid statement along the lines "See how strong this can be? Now imagine making a game bearing this in mind, that has an excellent story in and of itself, and excellent mechanics in and of itself, how freaking strong that could/would be?"

6. It was (I think) kind of a historical milestone for games (and this doesn't at all require the game to be awesome), because it was, again, probably the first "close to AAA" titles to reflect on its own medium, and also culture surrounding it. I think that's the more/most important reason for which it was praised.

7. It may not be excellent, or even "very good" in and of itself, but I feel it kind of opened a door for more interesting (and potentially better) games to use this approach.

 

[purf]

Okay, I liked Spec Ops. It was good, some of the time. However, every time it pops up on these forums people call it "A SHOW OF HOW OUR MEDIUM IS ART AND BETTER THAN MOVIES!!!!" I felt like the game was hindered by all the delays and a lower budget than it deserved. The gameplay was ok, just not standout.

The STORY IS NOT THE BEST.

I think I'm way too harsh, but maybe we were too easy.

haven't played it yet, just planning (I want to find some time when I'll be able to go through it whole without being disturbed by any people or thoughts), but from what I heard (Errant Signal's and Extra Credit's analyses) I don't think it's overrated.

1. gameplay was not meant to be standout, it was "ok" intentionally

2. the story alone was also not meant to be "the best".

3. "A how of how our medium is art and better than movies!" doesn't necessarily mean that the example itself MUST be art and better than movies and excellent

4. From what I understood, the main point was that it was a game where narrative and mechanics were not contradicting each other, the main strength of the game comes from them working together in a meaningful way, so judging them separately misses the point

5. It was one of the first "close to AAA" examples of how this can be done and used for the better, the game doesn't have to be perfect to make a strong and valid statement along the lines "See how strong this can be? Now imagine making a game bearing this in mind, that has an excellent story in and of itself, and excellent mechanics in and of itself, how freaking strong that could/would be?"

6. It was (I think) kind of a historical milestone for games (and this doesn't at all require the game to be awesome), because it was, again, probably the first "close to AAA" titles to reflect on its own medium, and also culture surrounding it. I think that's the more/most important reason for which it was praised.

7. It may not be excellent, or even "very good" in and of itself, but I feel it kind of opened a door for more interesting (and potentially better) games to use this approach.

Not meaning to single you out, but you pretty much list the exact reasons why I do think it's overrated.
All those things how the gameplay is barely "ok" intentionally, how you have the exact same mechanics like "shoot baddies until timer runs out" being a reflection on the genre? All the resemblances to BlackOps (one of the last two Spunkgargleweewees I've played) "Oh, it's all in the protagonist's head" and "Oh, let's have some Vietnam/Woodstock era music"? And this claim that all this makes the game so special? For me, that's a mere statement that is being made outside of the game. While being in it, I haven't experienced these notions. And even if all of this was in fact a cunning plan of the developers - how great or difficult or genious is it really, after all, to mock all the Battlecalls of Warfares?

I do think it is an important game and I hope it leaves an impact, but praising it so much just because it shines in comparison to all the other shit reeks of superficiality.

 

[Windcaler]

*Puts on flame suit, hides behind bullet proof glass*

Okay, I liked Spec Ops. It was good, some of the time. However, every time it pops up on these forums people call it "A SHOW OF HOW OUR MEDIUM IS ART AND BETTER THAN MOVIES!!!!" I felt like the game was hindered by all the delays and a lower budget than it deserved. The gameplay was ok, just not standout.

This is where I'll get controversial. The STORY IS NOT THE BEST. In fact, if it was a film, I think it wouldn't be praised. The twist at the end felt like the bad Twilight Zone episodes, and the "emotional" moments were good, but not "more effective than Schindler's List" (which I was told). THe characters just felt generic even near the end, when they were supposed to be all crazy, except Walker. I also had a creeping feeling they were trying to make Konrad like Andrew Ryan in the sense you talk to him and never see him, which didn't do much for me.

The game's satire isn't exactly the video game Animal Farm, and I felt if you sort of cut out the white phosphorous stuff and the lynching, it just could have been another generic shooter.

I think I'm way too harsh, but maybe we were too easy.

When I played the game there wasnt much hype around it yet and when I did I was a little stunned. Stunned that the developers tried to tackle actual issues with themes such as "War is hell" and "Playing the hero". Not to mention the first time games have tried to touch the issues surrounding PTSD (and one that books and movies rarely touch). I believe the developers set out to use their game to express such ideals and for me they came across well (which is saying something since Ive actually been in combat).

Today people prop the game up pretty high and as an artistic endevor I think the game delivers very well. However the game is not a masterpiece IMO. It has its issues both in story and in gameplay but I can still find meaning, beauty, and emotion in it. To me that makes it worth a purchase. Few games inspire awe or provoke thought from me and the ones that do deserve support from gamers.

Ultimately whether the line is overated or not is a question that requests a subjective answer from a subjective question.

 

[G-Force]

Erm, no. They would see the mortar as a easy and quicker choice rather than risking time and effort. Even then, the result of the using the mortar is bullshit as the civilians will get killed no matter what and they would go up like they were storing gasoline in the same place.

I want to draw your attention to this phrase

"refusing to use the mortar would result in a endless spawning of snipers"

Going buy your proposed solution not using the solution would not be a solution as enemies would constantly respawn stalling the game until the mortar was used.

A forced choice

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Why do people praise this game by saying it makes you want to quit playing it? How is that a good thing?

Please just think about it for a moment. If that is the case then the developers have designed a game that sends the message that they do not want you to play this game. In that case perhaps they are doing something wrong and should find a different industry to work in.

I kind of missed three pages of debate back there, so sorry for bringing this back up. Reading your posts, you don't seem to really enjoy the type of game that Spec Ops is trying to be. That's fine; I don't want to convince you to like it if it's not your cup of tea.

But when you're talking about how games shouldn't want to make you quit playing them, it occurred to me that it might be better to draw a comparison to tragedies in theatre. I don't if you've ever watched a tragedy played well on stage, but they're deeply uncomfortable to watch - a good actor has to simulate the psychological devastation of the character, and if they're really good, it's disturbingly similar to watching someone break down in front of you. I've seen Ian McKellen play King Lear, and I actually wanted to leave my seat - not because it was bad, but because it was so good it was almost too painful to bear.

This is because the point of a tragedy is to be painful. I'm sorry to whip out the Greek guns, but Aristotle wrote about how a tragedy works by inducing catharsis in the audience; it shows them something deeply painful and unpleasant, forces them to watch, and afterwards the audience feels better for having experienced it, having been purged of whatever unpleasant feelings the tragedy evoked in them. It's like vomiting; it feels awful doing it, because it has to come out your mouth, but afterwards you feel better because at least all that bile isn't in you anymore.

I think Spec Ops is a tragedy in the Greek sense. It's not fun to play, it's not fun to watch, it's not even particularly fun to talk about. The game is daring you to leave, but you feel compelled to stay. You're watching the hero take the express train into Crazyland, knowing that he could stop at any time but he won't. Knowing you can stop playing at any time, but you won't.

So, yeah. Spec Ops is like vomiting. Wait, maybe I lost the thread there.

If this game is so eye-opening, then where are all the ex-COD dudebros renouncing their brown people murder simulating ways?

It's actually a really good point. I don't play CoD myself (though I did play Halo and Gears of War) so I don't know how much of an effect the game would have had on its presumed target audience. I have a whole heap of friends who've played CoD; maybe I can get them to play it and ask what they thought.

I can say, however, that I didn't enjoy the game out of moral outrage. The game was actually pretty painful to play. To the extent that I enjoyed it, I enjoyed how it played with my expectations of the genre. I mean, I expected the game to be critical of war, but I never expected Walker to be the bad guy, so when I realised it, it hit with full force.

I never really went "Ah! How awful it is that today's youth plays such games!" I sorta just went "woah" and then thought about it for a long time. I mean, it hadn't even occurred to me to try and get my dudebro friends to play it until you mentioned it just then.

 

[Madkipz]

When compared to other games SPEC OPS: The Line is the single greatest FPS I have played since Bioshock. A ride for the century. Because I seriously doubt we will see many others like this.

The Line is a game where choice is mostly hidden and not intuitive, a game that has evoked more emotions than say Walking Dead (a game where choice is commercially advocated to you, and yet always made irrelevant).

Nothing in The Walking Dead can be "discussed", nothing in this game besides a minute or two of episode 5 caused any feels at all, and they were all contrived, and predictable as all hell. You see Clems cap on the street, check the cardboards, and BOOM ZOMBIE!

Spec Ops: The Line has no commercially advocated or marketed choices and yet it allows you to make the most profoundly relevant and different choices I have seen for a long time. How to disperse a crowd of angry civvies, do you shoot the CIA agent begging for relief after he is trapped underneath a burning truck? What do you do, and what does it mean for you?

Personally I shot Konrad, and I surrendered my weapon. It made sense to get out of this elaborate purgatory. I came, I saw, I chose, and it was good. The fact that you can shoot these guys that come to fetch you and stay is amazing. The fact that Walker / the player can decided that he should pay the price of his actions in suicide is amazing. There is even a theory that Konrad is the guy inventing up a Captain Walker persona to escape his own guilt (supported by the fact that captain Walker is wearing Konrads clothes when they come to get him).

This game is not mainstream. This game is not overrated, and yet it is. This game is not fun, and yet it is compelling, interesting, engaging, profoundly awesome when compared with every other game of 2012.

The Line has set itself apart. It is the only game of 2012 that will remain relevant for many years to come, and those who can appreciate it sometimes only have the vocabulary to express that they feel it is better than. It is the first real attempt at being different. It is the only compelling argument of video games as art made in 2012.

first, to say that spec ops is the "only game of 2012 that will remain relevant" is bullshit.

ME3 concluded the best sci fi series of all time (flaws and all).
Dishonored gave you endless choices on how to tackle situations, even if the moral code system is predictable.
Far cry 3 gave unprecedented freedom for a open world game.
TWD created what could be argued as the video game industry's first truly believable cast of characters.
Borderlands 2 is currently the best loot grinding game on the market.
Max payne 3 has what could be the best 3rd person shooting in the genre.
Journey is the first game that could be truly labelled as art, and is spearheading the "games are art too" movement.

see what i mean? spec ops is an excellent game, albeit overrated (because of the constant praise), but it is not the only thing that 2012 will be remembered for.

also, to say it's the BEST FPS since bioshock (which was only excellent story wise) is a very... strange opinion, to say the least. see, the mechanics in the game are sub-par. other games (like the previously mentioned max payne 3) have the energy and fluidity that spec ops just dosent.

sorry if it seems like i attacked you, but i wanted to chime in, and i have no ill will with this.

It`s not bullshit. I never said 2012 did not have other memorable games. I said Spec ops will retain relevance, for you will not see one like it in a long time. All the other games have gimmicks that can be copied and pasted into the infinite. Whether it be a satisfying game play mechanic, an enchanting world, freedom, or believable entities.

Spec Ops has no such gimmick. its gameplay is tried and there are better, its characters are tried, and there are better, even the setting in Dubai is horribly researched and unrealistic, but all of it comes together in a satisfying narrative with an illusion of choice that something like the walking dead can only hope to allude towards. In retaining a sense of linearity both gameplay changes, art asset changes, and narrative hooks all tie together to question not just the genre it is presented in, but also to call to question who we are to enjoy this kind of thing.

No other game in a long time has tried to venture into the realm of the profound since the time of Bioshocks Andrew Ryan, and while that was a fun experience Spec Ops does it better. A whole lot better.

 

[ShinyCharizard]

snip

That's fine. I think we should just agree to disagree here.

 

[Gergar12_v1legacy]

It was a drama where your choices didn't really have that much effect, but I guess it would look at YOU as a person who makes such choices. I tend to think it's testing my morals when times get bad. Won't spoil anything when I say that. It had a nice storyline.

 

[Last Hugh Alive]

Is Spec Ops: The Line overrated? Sure, at least here on The Escapist. But being overrated doesn't necessarily stop it from being good or even great. I, of course, think The Line is pretty special despite the many criticisms it deserves because I really appreciate what it tried to do and spoke to me in a way a game never has before. I loved the way its message was delivered, though not perfectly.

After all, plenty of my all time favourite games and franchises (GTA, MGS, Mass Effect, Saints Row, Fallout, etc.) are not without their glaring flaws and annoying fanboys, maybe even overrated and overhyped, but still pretty damn good at what they tried to do.

I also don't understand how Spec Ops: The Line should be accused of being overrated, of all things, based on its crummy gameplay when absolutely no one has praised the game for its gameplay, the narrative is what has drawn the attention. If you think the narrative isn't what people have hyped it up to be, then I can understand calling the game overrated. You might think the narrative is paradoxical and perhaps hypocritical, but I've seen some people here stating the game shouldn't have the right to use a medium to criticise that medium and I think those people are going a bit too far.

But anyway, if you don't like Spec Ops: The Line based on the bad gameplay, that's fine too. But if you're coming at it from that angle, I don't think you get to use the word "overrated" simply because the functionality and quality of the combat/gameplay mechanics never realy praised in the first place (at best, people say its supposed to be bad for narrative reasons but even I think that's reaching for it a bit). You can call the game a lot of things for this reason, boring, broken, whatever, all of them are probably valid. I just don't think the word "overrated" is appropriate when criticising the game from this angle.

Then again, take my thoughts with a grain of salt if you want because my Games of the Year were all this game, ME3, Lollipop Chainsaw and Max Payne 3 because I'm fussy and have weird tastes.

 

[Nazgual]

The comparison to Schindler's List doesn't hold much water. The scenarios in Spec Ops are used for a very different purpose than the scenes in that film, and presented in a different format so measuring the two against each other is pointless. Also, if the phosphorous and lynching were cut out it would still not be close to the other generic shooters, even though those moments are significant to the games purpose.