Poll: Jim Sterling Calls Out New Assassin's Creed (for racism/sexism?)

[Holy_Handgrenade]

There are 2 main problems i have with the AC controversy.

1. There are plenty of underrepresented groups, and I don't see why women should get a greater focus then others, its discriminatory.

2. Almost everyone here agrees that games are art. That means we should respect their decisions as artists. We can and should pressure the industry as a whole to be more inclusive to underrepresented groups, but slamming individual works for not being inclusive enough sounds like the setting of some dystopian novel where artistic expression is only allowed when it meets so much criteria.

A. Various excuses can be made that the various under represented groups weren't there in the historical context so cannot be in the game but it's very hard to make that argument about 51% of the population who had a pivotal role in the french revolution, the time it was set and the most famous assassin of the time being female.
B. Except when the decisions aren't being made for the purposes of art. You also cannot use the defence that "Ohhh, it's art so you can't criticise anything about it or you're being Hitler" as it's a ridiculous argument and everything should be held up to scrutiny, it's not your five year old son's drawing that we must fawn over despite being shit.

C. To go back to your point of including one demographic but not others is discriminatory so don't include any except white males is the funniest example of circular logic I've ever seen.

 

[Garnet]

As I said, Dynasty Warriors is fictional, but you start putting Black Chinese Generals in those games and everyone would laugh at you.

Except there ARE black characters in the game, so ...

There are no fat characters in the game though. As a guy who weighs 240 pounds, I find that offensive.

I am offended on behalf of Xu Zhu at this erasure. ;_;

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

As I said, Dynasty Warriors is fictional, but you start putting Black Chinese Generals in those games and everyone would laugh at you.

Except there ARE black characters in the game, so ...

There are no fat characters in the game though. As a guy who weighs 240 pounds, I find that offensive.

Yes there are.

Dynasty Warriors is one of the more diverse games out there, with over 90 characters across a range of body types, races, and a laaaarge cast of women. I am surprised nobody's called it Social Justice Warriors yet.

 

[Toilet]

Assassins Creed is far from racist, there has only been a single Caucasian protagonist in the entire series. Sexism is a more complex issue as generally most games with female protagonists don't sell as well as games with male protagonists do so I feel that the use of female protagonists is a corporate decision and less of a "I don't want no gurls in my games!"

Just imagine if everyone who was vocal about sexism in games actually bought Remember Me.

As I said, Dynasty Warriors is fictional, but you start putting Black Chinese Generals in those games and everyone would laugh at you.

Except there ARE black characters in the game, so ...

There are no fat characters in the game though. As a guy who weighs 240 pounds, I find that offensive.

There is a fat character in the game, Google Xu Zhu.

 

[atavax]

There are 2 main problems i have with the AC controversy.

1. There are plenty of underrepresented groups, and I don't see why women should get a greater focus then others, its discriminatory.

2. Almost everyone here agrees that games are art. That means we should respect their decisions as artists. We can and should pressure the industry as a whole to be more inclusive to underrepresented groups, but slamming individual works for not being inclusive enough sounds like the setting of some dystopian novel where artistic expression is only allowed when it meets so much criteria.

A. Various excuses can be made that the various under represented groups weren't there in the historical context so cannot be in the game but it's very hard to make that argument about 51% of the population who had a pivotal role in the french revolution, the time it was set and the most famous assassin of the time being female.
B. Except when the decisions aren't being made for the purposes of art. You also cannot use the defence that "Ohhh, it's art so you can't criticise anything about it or you're being Hitler" as it's a ridiculous argument and everything should be held up to scrutiny, it's not your five year old son's drawing that we must fawn over despite being shit.

C. To go back to your point of including one demographic but not others is discriminatory so don't include any except white males is the funniest example of circular logic I've ever seen.

The complaint as i understand it to be isn't that AC is historically inaccurate by only giving you the option of playing a male, so the point that there was also women is not relevant. The complaint is instead that its exclusionary of women, and well, the game is exclusionary to many groups.

I am not saying you can't criticize and critique art. But that it is absurd and disrespectful of human expression to bash it when it doesn't include a underrepresented group.

My argument was never don't include any other groups other then white males. I am saying you should focus on making the industry more inclusive to all underrepresented groups and that its discriminatory on every other underrepresented group to only focus on the under representation of women.

 

[LameDuck]

[...]

The problem is not really that they didn't include [underrepresented group of choice], but rather that they went extremely lazy and went for four white dudes who look almost identical, when just about every modern AAA-game has a generic looking white dude as playable character. And then tried to blame it on "it's hard to animate", when they could simply reuse the exact same animations for any skin color or gender.

If you're going to expand the roster of playable characters, why not give the player the option of a different gender or race? I love having options, even if I personally won't explore all of them.

 

[burningdragoon]

There are 2 main problems i have with the AC controversy.

1. There are plenty of underrepresented groups, and I don't see why women should get a greater focus then others, its discriminatory.

2. Almost everyone here agrees that games are art. That means we should respect their decisions as artists. We can and should pressure the industry as a whole to be more inclusive to underrepresented groups, but slamming individual works for not being inclusive enough sounds like the setting of some dystopian novel where artistic expression is only allowed when it meets so much criteria.

A. Various excuses can be made that the various under represented groups weren't there in the historical context so cannot be in the game but it's very hard to make that argument about 51% of the population who had a pivotal role in the french revolution, the time it was set and the most famous assassin of the time being female.
B. Except when the decisions aren't being made for the purposes of art. You also cannot use the defence that "Ohhh, it's art so you can't criticise anything about it or you're being Hitler" as it's a ridiculous argument and everything should be held up to scrutiny, it's not your five year old son's drawing that we must fawn over despite being shit.

C. To go back to your point of including one demographic but not others is discriminatory so don't include any except white males is the funniest example of circular logic I've ever seen.

The complaint as i understand it to be isn't that AC is historically inaccurate by only giving you the option of playing a male, so the point that there was also women is not relevant. The complaint is instead that its exclusionary of women, and well, the game is exclusionary to many groups.

I am not saying you can't criticize and critique art. But that it is absurd and disrespectful of human expression to bash it when it doesn't include a underrepresented group.

My argument was never don't include any other groups other then white males. I am saying its discriminatory on every other underrepresented group to only focus on the underrepresentation of women.

Well when someone asks the devs for AC Unity why in 4-player co-op the character make-up is 0% of a group that makes up *over* 50% of the population and they say "we were going to but was going to be too expensive" I wouldn't be surprised if the ensuing controversy is about that group and not others.

If someone asked why they wasn't a non-white character choice and the devs basically dismissed an entire group of people as 'not important' I would expect a similar situation happening.

 

[atavax]

[...]

The problem is not really that they didn't include [underrepresented group of choice], but rather that they went extremely lazy and went for four white dudes who look almost identical, when just about every modern AAA-game has a generic looking white dude as playable character. And then tried to blame it on "it's hard to animate", when they could simply reuse the exact same animations for any skin color or gender.

If you're going to expand the roster of playable characters, why not give the player the option of a different gender or race? I love having options, even if I personally won't explore all of them.

i would say that rushed and generic content is a fault of almost every AAA game and is why they rarely appeal to me.

also, that being able to use the same animations is not good enough. Its like the controversy over fov in first person shooters. Yes, its very simple for a developer to give you the option to go above 70 fov. But the game will likely get a lower metacritic score if he doesn't spend the resources to make the fovs above 70 look great or if he doesn't make female character implementation look great, then if he simply doesn't include the option for either. So developers are pressured to remove options if they can't implement them perfectly. Which is probably why every modern shooter forces you through a narrow corridor.

 

[LameDuck]

also, that being able to use the same animations is not good enough. Its like the controversy over fov in first person shooters. Yes, its very simple for a developer to give you the option to go above 70 fov. But the game will likely get a lower metacritic score if he doesn't spend the resources to make the fovs above 70 look great or if he doesn't make female character implementation look great, then if he simply doesn't include the option for either. So developers are pressured to remove options if they can't implement them perfectly. Which is probably why every modern shooter forces you through a narrow corridor.

What..? It's hard to make a game look good with higher FOV? No, it's not. Games are designed around a lower FOV when they are targeted at consoles, as you sit further away from a TV. The devs then "cheat" by not animating stuff outside this FOV so that they need less optimization. It's actively making the game look worse at higher FOVs to reduce the need for optimization, which then backfires as the game is ported to PC, where players sit closer to the screen and want higher FOV.

Animating movement is identical to male and female models. The only difference is the physical model, which is not animated (instead you animate a skeleton that is reused on all character models). Same goes for race, you only make a new model with a new skin. Even shit like breast jiggle physics is already implemented on the male models, as they have clothing and other items that move independently from the animation. This is not rocket science, the studios and publishers are either talking out their asses or actively lying to shift blame.

Edited for spelling.

 

[Nion]

[...]

The problem is not really that they didn't include [underrepresented group of choice], but rather that they went extremely lazy and went for four white dudes who look almost identical, when just about every modern AAA-game has a generic looking white dude as playable character. And then tried to blame it on "it's hard to animate", when they could simply reuse the exact same animations for any skin color or gender.

If you're going to expand the roster of playable characters, why not give the player the option of a different gender or race? I love having options, even if I personally won't explore all of them.

There aren't "four dudes", there is one dude. The "roster" contains a single person. You play as the same main character no matter what. In co-op everyone plays the same dude, but appears to have slightly different facial hair and color coding on other people's screens.

 

[LameDuck]

There aren't "four dudes", there is one dude. The "roster" contains a single person. You play as the same main character no matter what. In co-op everyone plays the same dude, but appears to have slightly different facial hair and color coding on other people's screens.

I guess that makes more sense, in a twisted way. Let everyone play the main character in coop. I still think it's extremely lazy design, especially in a time period where there are well known historical examples of women working as assassins.
If they had simply used this explanation from the beginning instead of pulling reasons -- that make no sense -- out of thin air there might not have been such a backlash. I expect more from game developers.

 

[Carnagath]

As I said, Dynasty Warriors is fictional, but you start putting Black Chinese Generals in those games and everyone would laugh at you.

Except there ARE black characters in the game, so ...

There are no fat characters in the game though. As a guy who weighs 240 pounds, I find that offensive.

Yes there are.

Dynasty Warriors is one of the more diverse games out there, with over 90 characters across a range of body types, races, and a laaaarge cast of women. I am surprised nobody's called it Social Justice Warriors yet.

Sorry, but this guy looks NOTHING like me, I have a goatee and my head is shaved, therefore I don't feel adequately represented. I hope you understand my frustration. I am composing an angry email against Koei as we speak. I will also tweet my frustration and retweet everyone who feels the same. I will also write a highly critical blog about them, in which I will examine the possibility of them being racist against fat people with goatees. I am a big, HUGE checkbox that EVERY developer needs to tick before they even start working on a game, or I will make them regret it. Mark my words.

 

[God of Path]

Is Jim's criticism of AC:U justified?

Heh. Hehehehehehe. HAHAHAHAHAHAA. I hope I'm not the only one who sees the immense satire of this jest.

 

[atavax]

What..? It's hard to make a game look good with higher FOV? No, it's not. Games are designed around a lower FOV when they are targeted at consoles, as you sit further away from a TV. The devs then "cheat" by not animating stuff outside this FOV so that they need less optimization. It's actively making the game look worse at higher FOVs to reduce the need for optimization, which then backfires as the game is ported to PC, where players sit closer to the screen and want higher FOV.

Animating movement is identical to male and female models. The only difference is the physical model, which is not animated (instead you animate a skeleton that is reused on all character models). Same goes for race, you only make a new model with a new skin. Even shit like breast jiggle physics is already implemented on the male models, as they have clothing and other items that move independently from the animation. This is not rocket science, the studios and publishers are either talking out their asses or actively lying to shift blame.

Edited for spelling.

it isn't difficult to make a game look good with higher FoV, but it requires more work then simply allowing for a higher FoV. They typically feel the need to design new viewmodels for the weapons for different FoVs. Or like in Titanfall they would have to design different cockpits. Its frustrating because i don't care what the viewmodels look like, i just want higher fovs, just like some people want women characters in AC, but to the AAA developer they need to eliminate bad looking viewmodels and bad looking animations and if they don't have the time to make a bunch of weapon viewmodels for a wide range of fovs, they limit the fovs on PC and if they don't have the time to animate female characters properly, they remove female characters. And also, i think them running out of resources and needing to cut some content, which ended up being female characters is at least partially because its a new generation of consoles and they underestimated how much it was going to cost as they're still new with this generation of consoles. Hopefully in a year or so devs will have a good idea what it takes to make products on the newest gen and we'll stop seeing games that are obviously lacking content. Also Yes, one of the reasons why they use a narrow FoV on consoles is it limits what is available on the screen which makes it less demanding.

I'm sure any AAA dev would disagree with you and say it takes way more work to make a female playable character then slapping a female skin on.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

As I said, Dynasty Warriors is fictional, but you start putting Black Chinese Generals in those games and everyone would laugh at you.

Except there ARE black characters in the game, so ...

There are no fat characters in the game though. As a guy who weighs 240 pounds, I find that offensive.

Yes there are.

Dynasty Warriors is one of the more diverse games out there, with over 90 characters across a range of body types, races, and a laaaarge cast of women. I am surprised nobody's called it Social Justice Warriors yet.

Sorry, but this guy looks NOTHING like me, I have a goatee and my head is shaved, therefore I don't feel adequately represented. I hope you understand my frustration. I am composing an angry email against Koei as we speak. I will also tweet my frustration and retweet everyone who feels the same. I will also write a highly critical blog about them, in which I will examine the possibility of them being racist against fat people with goatees. I am a big, HUGE checkbox that EVERY developer needs to tick before they even start working on a game, or I will make them regret it. Mark my words.

You're adorable.

 

[Carnagath]

You're adorable.

Quite. In all honesty, I don't feel that people have the right to criticize any product of human intellect based on representation or political correctness. You can of course judge something based on its own merits, but other than that... A writer, a director, a painter, a team of game developers... they don't owe you anything. They will create what they want to create, and if you are dissatisfied by it for reasons that are purely personal, you have the right to not support it. And that's it. Period. I'd imagine that the vast majority of people who stir up website/twitter/blog shitstorms about such matters would not in real life walk into a painter's gallery and shit on them because there are no paintings of women on display, because they would get kicked out, and rightly so. Somehow, however, they seem to think that doing that over the internet is ok. It isn't. It really isn't very nice, and in extreme cases it can function as an obstacle against artistic freedom. Not to mention how incredibly stupid it is to accuse a megastudio of several hundred developers of functioning as a collective hivemind of sexism. Maybe if you were a bit more patient, you'd find out that AC Unity actually has a good story to tell, even without ticking all the representation checkboxes that some people feel their egos are entitled to. Now, wouldn't that be amazing...

 

[LameDuck]

it isn't difficult to make a game look good with higher FoV, but it requires more work then simply allowing for a higher FoV. They typically feel the need to design new viewmodels for the weapons for different FoVs. Or like in Titanfall they would have to design different cockpits. Its frustrating because i don't care what the viewmodels look like, i just want higher fovs, just like some people want women characters in AC, but to the AAA developer they need to eliminate bad looking viewmodels and bad looking animations and if they don't have the time to make a bunch of weapon viewmodels for a wide range of fovs, they limit the fovs on PC and if they don't have the time to animate female characters properly, they remove female characters. And also, i think them running out of resources and needing to cut some content, which ended up being female characters is at least partially because its a new generation of consoles and they underestimated how much it was going to cost as they're still new with this generation of consoles. Hopefully in a year or so devs will have a good idea what it takes to make products on the newest gen and we'll stop seeing games that are obviously lacking content. Also Yes, one of the reasons why they use a narrow FoV on consoles is it limits what is available on the screen which makes it less demanding.

I'm sure any AAA dev would disagree with you and say it takes way more work to make a female playable character then slapping a female skin on.

Firstly, games very rarely (if at all) have different weapon models for different FOVs, they simply scale the weapon size to match the FOV. You don't see more of the weapon with a larger FOV, you see more around you. As for Titanfall, sure, they might have had to design a different cockpit if they targeted higher FOV, but that's a game where you are inside a robot and look out through screens. That's not a common thing, very few games work that way and therefore it's not a good representation of reality. Even if the game had been designed for a higher FOV to begin with, it would not have meant more work, but rather that they simply designed the cockpit differently to match the FOV. It's not more work designing for a higher FOV, however, you can cut corners in the later stages on a much lower FOV. It's all about how the GPU needs to render on the screen.

Secondly, they didn't cut female models due to running out of resources, they openly said they never had female models as a feature to begin with. They simply decided early on to have four playable characters which all apparently was the same white dude. If a AAA developer seriously ran out of resources due to the game landing on the current generation of consoles, then they are hugely incompetent. The platform may have changed, but the methods for developing has not. When you develop a game you do a cost analysis very early on, decide on what features to add or remove and then start working on the game. Character models are relatively cheap to do, so they would not have been cut. Heck, the current generation of consoles is way easier to develop for so it should be even easier to stick to budget.

As for developers disagreeing with me, it's been the opposite these last few days. Even long before this drama we've had developers talking about how they were forced by the publisher to have a man as playable character, as well as studios backing up how easy it is to include female playable characters. Jim Sterling even talks to the dev behind Blacklight Retribution about this [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6073-Lets-End-the-FPS-Sausage-fest], as they have both male and female characters. It's a bit of a tangent as the video focuses more on the specifics of FPS, but the point about it being easy to implement is brought up.

Does it take more work to implement a female playable model on top of the existing male model? Yes, as you have to do more character modelling and voice overs, as well as design the game around there being more than one choice, but the reasons the studio/publisher originally pulled were bullshit. And if they had actually planned to have a female character from the very start it would've been way easier and cheaper.

 

[Karadalis]

Maybe... just maybe... they are all white dudes because this all plays during the french revolution in a time where "multi culti" wasnt that much of an accepted idea?

No seriously.. i really dont remember all the black people or asian people involved in the french revolution and certainly not native americans.

What irks me more is that there is no female assasins because especially during these times a female assasin could be leagues more effective then male ones. History has shown that women in a male dominated culture make perfect spies and assasins since the guys never even think about the possibility of getting used by women. It fits perfectly in the whole assasin story and historically believable too (there where lots of women involved in the french revolution atleast amongst the commoners)

 

[The_Darkness]

There aren't "four dudes", there is one dude. The "roster" contains a single person. You play as the same main character no matter what. In co-op everyone plays the same dude, but appears to have slightly different facial hair and color coding on other people's screens.

Have Ubisoft actually gone on record to say this anywhere? Because the four look like different people to me (the beards are all slightly differently styled).

In any case, having one person be in 4 different places at once is... problematic storyline wise, even if it does get handwaved by 'animus'.