Poll: Jim sterling VS Extra credits

scw55

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Jim puts on an act of arrogance to entertain. He isn't concerned about sitting on the fence.
EC are sincere and try to sit on the fence.

Both are informative, but I fear that the industry might not realise some of Jim's comments are 'ironically humours' in addition to some of his humour. Least with EC if you're an idiot and want to take everything at face value, you won't get owned by someone's sarcasm.
 

him over there

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Bara_no_Hime said:
James Ennever said:
Yes sexism in Xbox live is unacceptable and yes verbal jousting does cross the line, But If we followed the suggestions they say, it would be the death of free speech. Where is the line between sexism, racism and bullying and at what point does it leave the realms of hate speech and into just having a different opinion?
Auto-mute is the death of Free Speech?

**shakes head**

Hate speech is NOT free speech. If someone wants to write and publish an article saying that women are less good at games than men, then one is allowed to do so. That is free speech - bigoted, but free.

However, no one has the right to scream obscenities in my face. That is NOT Free speech.

Auto-Muting people who are insulting ass-holes is not denying free speech. It is warning others about incorrect behavior.

OT: Both. I don't always agree with either one, but they always present well-reasoned and well-researched points of view.
I'm not going to say any bull about freedom of speech, but doesn't it just seem sort of silly and superfluous? If you don't like what they are saying you can mute them for yourself, people who do want to here them will here them and it doesn't deprive them of a voice when talknig with a friend over co-op or something.
 

Num1d1um

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Free Speech does cover screaming insults at people. It covers everything, that's why it's called Free Speech. On topic, I like Sterling, he makes good points.
 

Num1d1um

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Bara_no_Hime said:
James Ennever said:
Yes sexism in Xbox live is unacceptable and yes verbal jousting does cross the line, But If we followed the suggestions they say, it would be the death of free speech. Where is the line between sexism, racism and bullying and at what point does it leave the realms of hate speech and into just having a different opinion?
Auto-mute is the death of Free Speech?

**shakes head**

Hate speech is NOT free speech. If someone wants to write and publish an article saying that women are less good at games than men, then one is allowed to do so. That is free speech - bigoted, but free.

However, no one has the right to scream obscenities in my face. That is NOT Free speech.

Auto-Muting people who are insulting ass-holes is not denying free speech. It is warning others about incorrect behavior.

OT: Both. I don't always agree with either one, but they always present well-reasoned and well-researched points of view.
Yes, hate speech is free speech. Anyone has the right to hate you, the right to express that, and the right to insult you. Free speech doesn't only cover their right to express, it also covers your right to be exposed to what they have to say. Asserting "incorrect behaviour", like you have some kind of moral authority on what is correct and what is not, or on what constitutes free speech, is ridiculous. You're not the one to limit other's right to be exposed to what anyone has to say to them just because you found it offensive or mean. By that, you're actually taking their right of free speech away, instead of warning or protecting them.
 

Formica Archonis

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I used to like EC and avoid Jim, but around the time of the great EC fiasco here, Jim was calm and sensible while whatshisface from EC was using Twitter to desperately sell himself as David fighting Goliath, and if there's one thing I hate it's someone with a martyr or underdog complex. Made me realize that the air of superiority EC gave off wasn't part of the lecturer/student theme the series has but just the way the writer thinks.

So I dropped EC and gave Jim a second chance and now I watch him fairly regularly. He's at least keeping the faux-pretentious act to the start and end of videos so it's easy to skip without losing content, and it's more obvious that he's not drinking his own Kool-Aid anyway.

(And I STILL need to get rid of that damned EC shirt I got for donating.)
 

217not237

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Look, I love Extra Credits. There are times I agree with them, times I disagree with them, they're just stating their opinions. I can understand why people won't like them, but the genuine hatred I've seen is just unreal. To the people who say they're pretentious, artsy bullshit: yes, they have a tendency to think highly of themselves. The thing is, though, would anyone listen to them if they tried to run an intelligent conversation WITHOUT thinking highly of themselves? They don't make jokes, like Jim Sterling does, they're always serious, so the jokey self-satire wouldn't actually work.
 

G-Force

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
[*Yawn*

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.359349-Extra-Credits-Takes-a-Stab-at-the-Mass-Effect-3-issues#14172957

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.313335-Extra-credits-latest-video-cutscenes#12697823

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.227629-Extra-Credits-No-Redeeming-Value#7829762

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.296520-My-Criticism-of-Narrative-Mechanics-by-Extra-Credits#11723057

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.296584-Extra-Credits-Role-of-the-Player-My-own-personal-view#11726725

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.282680-Pretentious-A-holes-Insult-Extra-Credits-Behind-Their-Backs#11093173

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.280426-A-Response-to-Extra-Credits-Learning-from-Other-M#10959251

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.270508-Extra-Credits-is-great-but-the-voice#10397192

There you go. There are more than enough posts in those threads explaining why EC sucked. Should last you for a while.

This is just from the first page of the escapist forums search, by the way. I found a lot more through google and I didnt even bother looking at the other 10 pages I found here.
Extra credits also argued

- The importance of independent gaming
- Areas of conflict that games can explore that extend beyond combat
- The existance of "artsy games" does not put less emphasis on "fun games"

Are you saying those points made a wrong? Are you saying that the gaming medium should grow? Shows like Extra Credits and Jimquisition deal with issues where a single correct answer can be determined and both shows strive to create a discussion with these issues. Look at the main threads about the show and you can see SCORES of people agreeing and disagreeing with them. How many times in a Jimquisition thread have people called him out for being "wrong" and how many people say he's on the money? Ever crtisisim you have toward EC can EASILY be directed toward the Jimquisition so why does Jimquisition get your approval when EC does the same thing but with a more academic approach and better structure (completed with cited resources) is always wrong?
 

Num1d1um

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LastGreatBlasphemer said:
Num1d1um said:
Yes, hate speech is free speech. Anyone has the right to hate you, the right to express that, and the right to insult you. Free speech doesn't only cover their right to express, it also covers your right to be exposed to what they have to say. Asserting "incorrect behaviour", like you have some kind of moral authority on what is correct and what is not, or on what constitutes free speech, is ridiculous. You're not the one to limit other's right to be exposed to what anyone has to say to them just because you found it offensive or mean. By that, you're actually taking their right of free speech away, instead of warning or protecting them.
Free speech does in fact not cover harassment, which is termed legally as verbal assault.
You have the right to say what you want, and you have the right to face the consequences. The latter is not a right you can waive.
Your rights end when they infringe upon the rights of anyone else, in this case, freedom from unjust persecution. When people produce too much hurtful media, the government steps in and puts a stop to it. That is why people can be banned from computers by the state.

Auto muting someone who has a history of verbally abusing people on a service that is paid for and requires agreement to an EULA is FAR from infringing on freedom of Speech. You are not removing their ability to say it, you are removing their ability to harass people. They are different matters altogether.
Telling a person they HAVE to be assaulted because that person has the right to free speech is victim blaming.

Captcha: Oh, you

Don't sound so let down.
Big news, verbal assault laws are ridiculous. Unjust persecution is something entirely different. Getting shouted at on XBL is not persecution. You can tell me all the things your state can do, guess what, the state is wrong. Free speech is an absolute condition. Free means free, without restrictions. You either have it, or you don't. Civil rights are not a greyscale issue. If you can't let anyone say anything, then forget your right to free speech entirely and call it limited speech. There's no cherrypicking with civil or human rights, no matter how offended some kid may be. Freedom of speech goes way beyond XBL and some little brats shouting ****** over their mics. Microsoft can do whatever they want with their service, I don't care. But when you come on here and tell others just exactly how much free speech they are supposed to have, it's not about XBL anymore.

The former is indeed not a right you can waive either.
 

Korak the Mad

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I will always choose Extra Credits over Jim Sterling every time.
I find Extra Credits actually informative, while I find Jim Sterling a narcissistic prick who thinks he's god's gift to humanity.

Well, Jim, I have some news for you. You are annoying, you have an over-inflated ego, and quite frankly you need to stop thinking that you're so special. YOU'RE NOT!!
 

Fusioncode9

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I find myself looking forward to the next Jimquisition far more than Extra Credits. I like EC and some of their episodes are fantastic but they just come off so preachy and whiny to me. I just like Jim's attitude towards situations more.
 

Num1d1um

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LastGreatBlasphemer said:
Num1d1um said:
Big news, verbal assault laws are ridiculous. Unjust persecution is something entirely different. Getting shouted at on XBL is not persecution. You can tell me all the things your state can do, guess what, the state is wrong. Free speech is an absolute condition. Free means free, without restrictions. You either have it, or you don't. Civil rights are not a greyscale issue. If you can't let anyone say anything, then forget your right to free speech entirely and call it limited speech. There's no cherrypicking with civil or human rights, no matter how offended some kid may be. Freedom of speech goes way beyond XBL and some little brats shouting ****** over their mics. Microsoft can do whatever they want with their service, I don't care. But when you come on here and tell others just exactly how much free speech they are supposed to have, it's not about XBL anymore.

The former is indeed not a right you can waive either.
Funny, you say that but if you pay attention at all to current events, you're absolutely wrong.
And no, harassment is not protected by freedom of speech. That is why sexual harassment suits exist. That is why threatening to murder someone can land you in jail.
Saying, "I'm going to kill you" and then killing that person turns it from murder, to pre-meditated murder.

Care to tell me the laws that are enforced every day somehow don't exist anymore?
Care to tell me why they could not possibly be wrong laws? I'm not disputing the existence of those laws. I'm saying they infringe freedom of speech and should be rewritten or abolished. You're saying how it is. I'm saying the way it is right now is wrong. You can tell me it's forbidden all day, I say, it shouldn't be.
 

him over there

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LastGreatBlasphemer said:
Num1d1um said:
Big news, verbal assault laws are ridiculous. Unjust persecution is something entirely different. Getting shouted at on XBL is not persecution. You can tell me all the things your state can do, guess what, the state is wrong. Free speech is an absolute condition. Free means free, without restrictions. You either have it, or you don't. Civil rights are not a greyscale issue. If you can't let anyone say anything, then forget your right to free speech entirely and call it limited speech. There's no cherrypicking with civil or human rights, no matter how offended some kid may be. Freedom of speech goes way beyond XBL and some little brats shouting ****** over their mics. Microsoft can do whatever they want with their service, I don't care. But when you come on here and tell others just exactly how much free speech they are supposed to have, it's not about XBL anymore.

The former is indeed not a right you can waive either.
Funny, you say that but if you pay attention at all to current events, you're absolutely wrong.
And no, harassment is not protected by freedom of speech. That is why sexual harassment suits exist. That is why threatening to murder someone can land you in jail.
Saying, "I'm going to kill you" and then killing that person turns it from murder, to pre-meditated murder.

Care to tell me the laws that are enforced every day somehow don't exist anymore?
He isn't arguing technical legality in the judicial system, he's arguing ideals, at least from the looks of it. A belief that rights are absolutely inherent. A right can't be given to you by somebody because then it is a privilege, the whole thing is rather detached from this really. Besides he is technically right in that those things are covered by free speech because free speech sanctifies your ability to say it, not say it without repercussions.
 

Fusioncode9

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Korak the Mad said:
I will always choose Extra Credits over Jim Sterling every time.
I find Extra Credits actually informative, while I find Jim Sterling a narcissistic prick who thinks he's god's gift to humanity.

Well, Jim, I have some news for you. You are annoying, you have an over-inflated ego, and quite frankly you need to stop thinking that you're so special. YOU'RE NOT!!
I guess the sarcasm went right over your head. Jim even addressed this in one of his episodes.
 
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Jim is ok...EC always rubbed me the wrong way. I disliked it for a wide-variety of reasons, then someone linked me to the video of the one with the ridiculous facial hair telling his completely untouching and uninteresting sob story and it confirmed to me that my instinct was right and that I was completely justified in not liking these people.
 

Korak the Mad

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G-Force said:
SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
[*Yawn*

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.359349-Extra-Credits-Takes-a-Stab-at-the-Mass-Effect-3-issues#14172957

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.313335-Extra-credits-latest-video-cutscenes#12697823

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.227629-Extra-Credits-No-Redeeming-Value#7829762

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.296520-My-Criticism-of-Narrative-Mechanics-by-Extra-Credits#11723057

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.296584-Extra-Credits-Role-of-the-Player-My-own-personal-view#11726725

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.282680-Pretentious-A-holes-Insult-Extra-Credits-Behind-Their-Backs#11093173

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.280426-A-Response-to-Extra-Credits-Learning-from-Other-M#10959251

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.270508-Extra-Credits-is-great-but-the-voice#10397192

There you go. There are more than enough posts in those threads explaining why EC sucked. Should last you for a while.

This is just from the first page of the escapist forums search, by the way. I found a lot more through google and I didnt even bother looking at the other 10 pages I found here.
Extra credits also argued

- The importance of independent gaming
- Areas of conflict that games can explore that extend beyond combat
- The existance of "artsy games" does not put less emphasis on "fun games"

Are you saying those points made a wrong? Are you saying that the gaming medium should grow? Shows like Extra Credits and Jimquisition deal with issues where a single correct answer can be determined and both shows strive to create a discussion with these issues. Look at the main threads about the show and you can see SCORES of people agreeing and disagreeing with them. How many times in a Jimquisition thread have people called him out for being "wrong" and how many people say he's on the money? Ever crtisisim you have toward EC can EASILY be directed toward the Jimquisition so why does Jimquisition get your approval when EC does the same thing but with a more academic approach and better structure (completed with cited resources) is always wrong?
I like Extra Credits, because they at least give ideas on how to improve games.

I think SmashLovesQuestTitan likes it because Jim's show is more of a rant while Extra Credits is more structured and informative. EC will say that what they think is an opinion, while Jim is more "My word is fact, and you're wrong for disagreeing with me. Since I'm always right that makes me someone you should worship."
 

Korak the Mad

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Fusioncode9 said:
Korak the Mad said:
I will always choose Extra Credits over Jim Sterling every time.
I find Extra Credits actually informative, while I find Jim Sterling a narcissistic prick who thinks he's god's gift to humanity.

Well, Jim, I have some news for you. You are annoying, you have an over-inflated ego, and quite frankly you need to stop thinking that you're so special. YOU'RE NOT!!
I guess the sarcasm went right over your head. Jim even addressed this in one of his episodes.
I don't watch the show because I find him annoying and narcissistic.