Poll: Lack of basic mathmatical skills
- Thread starter barbzilla
- Start date
What I find most annoying are these posts where you have 1+1+1+...etc, and they're purely designed to catch people out.
However, I have met people who've left school and can't add a pair of 2 digit numbers together, like 23+51, or basic multiplication, like 7x3. (Or they do it by adding 7 to 7 to 7.) Also stuff like 'It's 11:15am and you're taking a train journey of 90 minutes, when will you arrive?' kind of stuff.
I realise some people just plain are not good with numbers and there's that numerical version of dyslexia, dyspraxia is it? However, there do seem to be a lot of people somehow slipping thru the net of basic education.
what's so sad, is I sat down to help someone like this, as they had a maths exam coming up, and I seemed to get a lot of this crap understood over the course of about half an hour. So how did they get from the age of 3 to 17 without picking it up? Is it them, the teachers, or the system?
However, I have met people who've left school and can't add a pair of 2 digit numbers together, like 23+51, or basic multiplication, like 7x3. (Or they do it by adding 7 to 7 to 7.) Also stuff like 'It's 11:15am and you're taking a train journey of 90 minutes, when will you arrive?' kind of stuff.
I realise some people just plain are not good with numbers and there's that numerical version of dyslexia, dyspraxia is it? However, there do seem to be a lot of people somehow slipping thru the net of basic education.
what's so sad, is I sat down to help someone like this, as they had a maths exam coming up, and I seemed to get a lot of this crap understood over the course of about half an hour. So how did they get from the age of 3 to 17 without picking it up? Is it them, the teachers, or the system?
The actual problem with the way those questions on Facebook are phrased is that they make people assume the presence of a multi-term divisor where it doesn't actually exist, and they should be reading left-to-right.
e.g.: 4+8/2+2. The most common error people make is to assume 8/2+2 means 8/4, which is not a valid assumption unless it is written as 8/(2+2)
e.g.: 4+8/2+2. The most common error people make is to assume 8/2+2 means 8/4, which is not a valid assumption unless it is written as 8/(2+2)
I'm in college for a Computer Science degree. Not only do I get to do loads of calculus and have to keep that order of operations in mind, but it also gets really fun trying to remember the order of operations for every programming language that I fiddle with.
Something like C/C++ is simple enough because it mostly holds to what you (or I at least) would expect, and largely correlates with the mathematical order of operations, aside from it having a lot more stuff like '.' and '%' and '&', just to name a few. The fun part is then messing with something like Perl that does crazy nonsense like giving their "print" function a very high precedence, so "print 5 + 1" prints 5 and then adds 1 to the result of that. Yeah.
But anyway, math is something I have to keep in my head, but a lot of other people don't, so I'm not terribly surprised. The problems are also pretty convoluted, typically, so wouldn't be difficult to misread if nothing else.
Something like C/C++ is simple enough because it mostly holds to what you (or I at least) would expect, and largely correlates with the mathematical order of operations, aside from it having a lot more stuff like '.' and '%' and '&', just to name a few. The fun part is then messing with something like Perl that does crazy nonsense like giving their "print" function a very high precedence, so "print 5 + 1" prints 5 and then adds 1 to the result of that. Yeah.
But anyway, math is something I have to keep in my head, but a lot of other people don't, so I'm not terribly surprised. The problems are also pretty convoluted, typically, so wouldn't be difficult to misread if nothing else.
Just like with languages, I really cannot understand the need for these things. There's a logic to it, and once you use it instinctively (around sixth grade at the very latest) you should not need these kind of memory aids.barbzilla said:
I am not a math genius by any stretch of the imagination - I dropped math in 13th grade (German school system) and never revisited it since apart from a couple very simple finance, accounting and statistics modules in my Masters studies (and my BA in Sinology did not include any math either). I don't even know how what an integral is - or at least couldn't explain it - but all the basic concepts are really based on intuition rather than knowledge in my opinion.
I'm an IT major, so mathematics aren't as important as most, but learning as much math as you can is important in daily life.
Well, the reason people get these Math 'problems' wrong is not because people can't do math; the actual problem is that the equation is not written clearly. As a physics undergrad I never give order of operations any thought beyond 'do stuff in parentises first' because when doing calculations the math is written out so that what gets added/multiplied together is completely unambiguous. Notation (or, how you write out your problem) is half the battle when it comes to doing math and, as these 'problems' demonstrate, if you have bad notation you will confuse those trying to solve any math problems you write down regardless of their mathematical ability.
And yet even language rules have silly mnemonics to use to remember rules. Even more so when it comes to the spelling of said languages. Not that I disagree with you, once you have it down the mnemonic becomes pointless.Monsterfurby said:
intuition becomes an issue when people don't have the basic mathematical skills requisite to perform the task at hand. If a person can't compile the order of operations then their intuition is going to be flawed. This is where we run into issues.
As an aside, to everyone who can't be arsed to read the rest of the thread to see where I have already answered issues you bring up, please don't expect me to jump at answering the same question repeatedly.
Edit: Not pointing you out with that last statement, you actually bring up a new point.
Typo, if you look throughout the rest of the thread I spell it correctly. So you may now face palm for not bothering to be arsed to look before you leap.PlatonicRapist said:
The thread is about math, it isn't about how well I spell, nor is it about how smart I may or may not think I am.
Let's not forget it's not just math involved here. You have to think of psychology as well. It's been shown that if you stick people in a group, it changes the way they approach problems. For instance, if everyone else in the group is giving the wrong answer, especially if they seem emphatic about it, ("OMG this is sooooo easy. It's totes 0," says annoying Facebook girl) then others will just agree with them even if they know it's wrong. I realize you can say the internet is different than a group of people irl because you're anonymous, but on Facebook, you're not really. Most people do use you their legitimate name there and what you say will be connected back to you.
TLDR: Wanting to fit in > Wanting to be right.
However, I will admit there are probably a lot of people who just don't know the right answer, but think they do. However, any good math teacher would never give the problems listed on that site as an assessment question because they are unfair/confusing. Give someone (5+9)/7x2? Fair assessment. Give someone 2+2+2+2+2x0? Not a good test question.
As for me, I want to be a teacher, so I will have to do some basic math and statistics, but nothing too complicated and most programs today offer those processes with a click of a button. I got up to Calculus I in high school, and I took a stats course and a couple economics courses in college. I always did ok in math. Usually Bs. However, I will say that I do not have mathematical intelligence. I think that involves some creativity of understanding how you can work numbers around to get the answer. I can plug and chug fine, but anything slightly different from the formula and I have no idea what to do.
TLDR: Wanting to fit in > Wanting to be right.
However, I will admit there are probably a lot of people who just don't know the right answer, but think they do. However, any good math teacher would never give the problems listed on that site as an assessment question because they are unfair/confusing. Give someone (5+9)/7x2? Fair assessment. Give someone 2+2+2+2+2x0? Not a good test question.
As for me, I want to be a teacher, so I will have to do some basic math and statistics, but nothing too complicated and most programs today offer those processes with a click of a button. I got up to Calculus I in high school, and I took a stats course and a couple economics courses in college. I always did ok in math. Usually Bs. However, I will say that I do not have mathematical intelligence. I think that involves some creativity of understanding how you can work numbers around to get the answer. I can plug and chug fine, but anything slightly different from the formula and I have no idea what to do.
I vaguely remember hearing the word PEMDAS, but it wasn't pushed. We just understood you did the brackets first, then multiplication/division, then addition/subtraction. (This coming from a guy who didn't bother with his times tables, just got used to what the results were gradually).
To answer the poll, somewhat important, I'm somewhat an engineer. ^^
I do of course enjoy seeing people's answers to trick questions where everything turn out to be multiplied by zero...or divi-:# b* ?D";?/##4#
?#>$*@(
#(*^$&#*#@
Sentence terminated.
To answer the poll, somewhat important, I'm somewhat an engineer. ^^
I do of course enjoy seeing people's answers to trick questions where everything turn out to be multiplied by zero...or divi-:# b* ?D";?/##4#
?#>$*@(
#(*^$&#*#@
Sentence terminated.
My math skills are awful, then again the only thing I really use it for are calculating how audio behaves in a room with all it's variables and how to distribute power over all our equipment.
Oh and how many beers I can still buy judging the weight off my wallet.
Oh and how many beers I can still buy judging the weight off my wallet.
You know, i see this a lot. But I don't think it's particularly good because it fails to emphasize how addition and subtraction as well as multiplication and division are really the same operation and so get the same priority. If you really follow PEMDAS, your result will be inaccurate: 10-3+2 is 9; not 5. It may help to regard this as 10+(-3)+2.barbzilla said:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Precedence.html
Don't use maths quite as often as i used to now; took some maths/physics/statistics/quantum classes. Don't get much further then D20+6 these days ;-)
Yeah, those math problems confuse me, so I don't even try.
I remember being taught BODMAS in school, but thats probably outdated now, I don't know.
All I do know is enough math to understand how money and time work. i.e. to earn as much as possible in the shortest time without killing myself from overexertion. However overexertion has so many damn variables I can't be arsed to quantify it.
I remember being taught BODMAS in school, but thats probably outdated now, I don't know.
All I do know is enough math to understand how money and time work. i.e. to earn as much as possible in the shortest time without killing myself from overexertion. However overexertion has so many damn variables I can't be arsed to quantify it.
I can count.. and I'm pretty damn good at it. I just need addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division to know if we have enough fuel or munitions or whatever before we head out.