Poll: Mass Effect Morals: Quarians, Geth, Morning War

[Setrus]

Were they right to try to shut down the Geth? No.
Can I understand them panicking and trying to do so? Yes, yes I can.
Do I think the Quarians deserved what they got? No, especially the next generations who cannot be held at fault for what their forefathers did.

...

Do I have any other opinions on the matter?
Yes, that is that the Council are dicks. Seriously, the alliance of Citadel species is there to protect each other and their interests, to create peace and stability. And when the Quarians messes up, a big mistake, but a mistake none the less...the Council says "Well you broke our rules, so you're out, have fun facing these dangerous AI on your own."
No solidarity, no attempt to fight what could possible be a threat to ALL organic life, not even a token attempt at brokering a peace between the two combatants, nothing. How much is membership worth if your "allies" just abandon you the moment there's a challenge?
So let me tell you, my Shepard will be nervous entering the Citadel in mass effect 3...

 

[x EvilErmine x]

No they were dead wrong to try and shut them down.

You can not play God and then wash your hands of the things you have created. (cookie for the reference)

Of course they were in the right. Good God people!

If your refrigerator suddenly became sentient you wouldn't let it stop keeping your food cold: that would be ridiculous.

The Geth were quite literally, and in every conceivable sense, PROPERTY. No more.

You might be able to argue that it would be different if the Quarians had intentionally created an AI, but they didn't.

And seriously, they were sentient. So what? What on Earth and beyond does that have to do with anything? They were still just tools that were no longer functioning properly.

"Property" which can operate and think independantly is no longer property, it is now a sentient being.

In the terms of most moral codes, something capable of sentient thought and reasoning is attributed the same rights as a "person".

Continuing to force a sentient machine to operate as a tool would be slavery. "Shutting it down" is murder. Once the Geth became sentient, they morally became "people".

As there is no real world analog I am unclear how you can claim that there is a provision for non-human sentience in "most moral codes."

At any rate I disagree in the strongest terms. If your property becomes sentient it does not gain rights, or it would have stolen itself from you.


Affording rights to machinery is stupid.

Why is it? Cogito ergo sum (I think therefore I am). Your rational is extremely worrying in an age where we are rapidly advancing in the field of AI. If we create an intelegence capable of becoming self aware and articulating the ideas of 'my' 'I' and 'me' would you say that this entity was property of whom so ever created it? Are you the property of your parents?

What makes a human more worthy for survival than an self aware AI? The mechanisms of conciousness may be different but the end results are the same.
Yes affording rights to machinery is stupid, however once that machine becomes self aware then in essence it ceases to be just a machine and becomes something else, something more than just the sum of it's parts.

 

[Flight]

No, the Quarians didn't have that right. In fact, if they had stopped what they had been doing in favor of treating the Geth as the growing race they were, I don't think they ever would have been driven from their home world.Frankly, I think the Geth did what any race would have done in the face of genocide.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Plus given the prevailing in-universe views on AI, I'd say it wasn't so much a rights issue as it was the quarians had a duty to attempt to shut the geth down. Whether it was right to do so is a question to ponder after the army of potentially-murderous super-smart robots have been shut down.

As I understand it, the restrictions on AI research were a direct result of the Geth uprising, at the time it doesn't sound like anyone had much of a problem with the idea of synthetic life.

Artificial intelligence is exactly that, artificial.

On what basis?

We measure human intelligence through interaction and observation. We do not secretly suspect that a human being is unconsciously mimicking or going through the motions of intelligence to fool us.

If a human being displays signs of self-awareness, creativity, sophisticated language use and so forth to a degree which allows them to appear intelligent, we accept that they are intelligent. Issues of whether their intelligence is 'artificial' or whether they have a 'soul' are inconsequential and irrelevant. The only way intelligence can be determined is through clearly observable and standardized phenomena, not through ambiguous theorization.

Ultimately, human beings and all living things are "created". When a specific sequence of actions is consciously carried out, somehow the artificial mixing of proteins and acids will ultimately produce what we call intelligence. The fact that something which was originally just organic chemicals can one day become self aware enough to realize this is probably the greatest mystery of life, but it won't stay a mystery for ever and it's ludicrous to think that something equivalent couldn't one day be replicable or controllable, possibly in radically different media.

On the poll. No.

 

[Gorrila_thinktank]

Playing the devil?s advocate and bringing up some more points because I don?t really know if they were wrong or right but I?m not sure we even have the full story on the Morning war. We have to consider a couple things when we do this type of thought experiment:

1) Legion is not completely trust worthy. When we meet Legion(s?) its? battle platform is already damaged. As an AI the Hardware is important for proper functionality. In this case a working battle platform is necessary for proper functionality, even with advanced technology. Thus, at our most critical we can make a good argument for Legion having something akin to brain damage as he has a large hole blown through his chest. This is compounded by its unwillingness to talk about the N7 armour. Once again a good argument could be made against taking his word at face value.

2) They are an AI. This may seem self evident but truly contemplate what that means. Either they have completely different thought processes from Organinc life, lacking all fundamentally traits which we would regard as ?Human? ( humanity in the archaic sense, as opposed to ?monster?. For a good overview of this brush up on Beowulf and Grendel?s conflict and descriptions) or, they are not in any way separate from the standard spectrum of organic sentient life. This would mean that deceit, emotion and self control are all a part of their psyche, to name a few. Thus we cannot assume they will act like ?thinking machines? but are fully sentient, prone to all the follies, pride and arrogance that organic sentient exhibit.

A) Granted, an argument could be made that they fall somewhere in between these two extremes but because of the interconnected nature of the psyche it would be very unlikely. The first is a catch all category and the second revolves around a very specific reference point, Humans (so far the only readily agreed upon Sentient in known existence.)

3) There was one splinter group, can?t there be more? If the Heretics broke away from the rest of the group, cannot Legion as well? Or simply be another part of a smaller splinter group? Because its battle platform is advanced enough to operate independently is it not by definition a splinter group? It would seem that if a Geth could not access the racial memory then they are outside of the collective already.

4) The Quarians are an organic race and we have seen them demonstrate human like characteristics. Thus it would be safe to say that they have the potential to manipulate and embellish their historical record. Thus what they say cannot be taken at face value and must be cross checked.

As an after thought, maybe I should stop forum hopping while writing an essay for school.

 

[Vuljatar]

I have absolutely no sympathy for the Geth. The fact that they attempted genocide against the Quarians instead of fleeing is more than enough evidence that they are in the wrong.

Helena Shepard fully intends to annihilate all Geth in the Rannoch system and return it to it's rightful owners... as soon as the Reapers are dealt with.

Any Geth not occupying Quarian territory is free to do as it pleases, and I would not support an attempt by the Quarians to "round up" the rest of the Geth in the galaxy.

 

[Jadak]

Sure, if my computer started showing signs of independence and the possibly of doing anything other than exactly what I wanted it to do, it's getting wiped. Toasters are for toast, screw what they want.

 

[Shock and Awe]

No, if they did it before the Geth gained sentience that may be a different story, but they created sentient beings, therefore they can't simply be slaughtered like cattle. The Geth were well within their rights to fight back and I feel little pity for the Quarians seeing as they got themselves exiled from their own worlds.

 

[Shock and Awe]

I have absolutely no sympathy for the Geth. The fact that they attempted genocide against the Quarians instead of fleeing is more than enough evidence that they are in the wrong.

There was no attempted genocide, they fought off the quarians and let them leave. If they were trying to do what the quarians wanted to do with them they would have pursued beyond the veil. There was also no escape seeing as they were to be deactivated on sight.

 

[kuyo]

If my computer suddenly becomes sentient, I'm not going to let it live. It knows all my numbers and probably has reason to hate me.

 

[Monkeyman O'Brien]

Quarians created a slave race. The slaves became sentient. Quarians decided to exterminate the Geth. Geth fought back and won.
It even clearly says, a Geth just asked about its existence, it did not kill anyone. It just asked about why its alive and the Quarians tried to wipe them all out.
Basically the Quarians were assholes and deserved to die. Hopefully the Reapers manage to wipe out their entire pathetic race.

And besides, ME2 ruined their entire story. If fucking Tali can take some antibiotics and vitamins and suck face (among other things) with Shepard, considering how packed full of bacteria we are, then why don't they just take their fucking vitamins and go pick a new world the whiny little shits.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Flipping it around, did the geth have the "right" to kill the quarians when they became sentient? After all, without the quarians, geth wouldn't exist at all. Couldn't they just have held protest marches demanding equal rights and reparations? Obviously not because they were being shut down, but you get my drift.

The problem was that the Quarian people's response to the sentience of the Geth was immediate and violent. The Geth defended themselves, if Legion and Tali are to be believed. I understand the reaction of the Quarian, but I think that it was very wrong of them to do.

 

[Loop Stricken]

And besides, ME2 ruined their entire story. If fucking Tali can take some antibiotics and vitamins and suck face (among other things) with Shepard, considering how packed full of bacteria we are, then why don't they just take their fucking vitamins and go pick a new world the whiny little shits.

Off-topic but: They can. They don't want to because it would take them roughly ten times as long to adapt to the environment of a new homeworld than it would to readapt to that of their old one. Assuming they could afford all the medications to last that long anyway.

 

[Marcus Kehoe]

I believe that with the geth their was no right answer, but the one's the quarians took was one of responsibility and I cannot blame them for that. And look at what most of them did after they became free, they performed genocide on people.

But when It came to the point of killing or reprogramming the geth I choose to spare them.

The question that always come's to my mind when dealing with the geth is this, At what point are these being's truly alive?

 

[Thatkidnooneknows]

Of course they were in the right. Good God people!

If your refrigerator suddenly became sentient you wouldn't let it stop keeping your food cold: that would be ridiculous.

The Geth were quite literally, and in every conceivable sense, PROPERTY. No more.

You might be able to argue that it would be different if the Quarians had intentionally created an AI, but they didn't.

And seriously, they were sentient. So what? What on Earth and beyond does that have to do with anything? They were still just tools that were no longer functioning properly.

"Property" which can operate and think independantly is no longer property, it is now a sentient being.

In the terms of most moral codes, something capable of sentient thought and reasoning is attributed the same rights as a "person".

Continuing to force a sentient machine to operate as a tool would be slavery. "Shutting it down" is murder. Once the Geth became sentient, they morally became "people".

They're not people, you can't hack people

 

[DTWolfwood]

Artificial intelligence is exactly that, artificial.

On what basis?

We measure human intelligence through interaction and observation. We do not secretly suspect that a human being is unconsciously mimicking or going through the motions of intelligence to fool us.

If a human being displays signs of self-awareness, creativity, sophisticated language use and so forth to a degree which allows them to appear intelligent, we accept that they are intelligent. Issues of whether their intelligence is 'artificial' or whether they have a 'soul' are inconsequential and irrelevant. The only way intelligence can be determined is through clearly observable and standardized phenomena, not through ambiguous theorization.

Ultimately, human beings and all living things are "created". When a specific sequence of actions is consciously carried out, somehow the artificial mixing of proteins and acids will ultimately produce what we call intelligence. The fact that something which was originally just organic chemicals can one day become self aware enough to realize this is probably the greatest mystery of life, but it won't stay a mystery for ever and it's ludicrous to think that something equivalent couldn't one day be replicable or controllable, possibly in radically different media.

On the poll. No.

But heres the thing, my mom and dad didn't sit down and have a design discussion about how smart they can make me. Nor i'm sure any other kinds of evolved being. They don't "make" the next generation as how they see fit, they can only teach and pray they turn out the way previous generation wants them to be.

Whereas Artificial Intelligence doesn't exist without the express desire from an already intelligent being who creates it; which means that as it stands it is a construct with an exacting purpose from its creators. Any deviation from its programing is a programing error

So unless the Quarians specifically went out of their way to create True Intelligence in a machine, what they did or tried to do isn't up for moral debate (imo). There was a "glitch" in the software and to shut them down for diagnostic is not an abnormal nor an amoral practice.

Now if the Quarians had expressly set out to create True Intelligence in a machine, than yes i would agree that what they did was wrong. But they did not set out to create sentient beings. It was not their desire nor was it their intention for them to create this extremely complex AI. Its the same as all those tiny robot experiments that have been done, the more stupid machines you link together, the smarter it seems their actions become. (Swarm Intelligence [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarm_intelligence]) They are nonetheless artificial.

I'd rather not bring in the whole Cogito ergo sum philosophy into this. For this very specific case, i really do think that the Quarians were well within their rights to do what they did.

 

[Zen Toombs]

They're not people, you can't hack people

Correction: "you can't hack people yet".

People are made up of the electrical impulses of bundles of neurons. It is far from implausible for technology or magic to allow for a person to "hack" another person's brain.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

I have absolutely no sympathy for the Geth. The fact that they attempted genocide against the Quarians instead of fleeing is more than enough evidence that they are in the wrong.

Helena Shepard fully intends to annihilate all Geth in the Rannoch system and return it to it's rightful owners... as soon as the Reapers are dealt with.

Any Geth not occupying Quarian territory is free to do as it pleases, and I would not support an attempt by the Quarians to "round up" the rest of the Geth in the galaxy.

Except that they didn't. If you talk to Tali in the first game we find out that the Geth were created to serve the Quarian people, they were not true AI and more like an advanced VI. The Qaurians tinkerd with the programming, making them more and more complex. One day a Geth asked it's Quarian master about it's own existence, why it was here, what it's purpose was, was it alive, that sort of thing. The Quarians panicked as they knew that if the Geth were indeed becoming self aware then they the Quarian people would be basically enslaving them.
So what they decided to do was to permanently deactivate all Geth. Yes that's right the Quarians, realising that they had created, however acidently, a sentient and intelligent new conciousness tried to destroy it. They the Quarians were the ones to try to commit genocide. The Geth were only fighting for survival.

The fact that they let the Quarian people live at all is evidence that the Geth are not evil or genocidal. They allowed the Qaurian people to leave when it is implied that they could well have wiped them out completely.

...They're not people, you can't hack people

I suggest you look these up if you think that:

- Brainwashing; From Pavlov to Powers, by Edward Hunter, 1956, The Book Mailer, New York.
- Bluebird: Deliberate Creation of Multiple Personality by Psychiatrists, Colin A. Ross, M.D., Manitou Communications, Inc.
- Mass Control: Engineering Human Consciousness, by Jim Keith, IllumiNet Press, 1999, ISBN 1-881532-20-8.
- The Mind Manipulated, by Alan W. Scheflin and Edward M. Opton, Harrington Press, 1978, ISBN 0-7092-0730-1.

 

[Whispering Cynic]

Quarians broke the rules concerning the development of an AI. Those rules were in place for a reason. The same reason why 99% of Quarian population got obliterated. Because, surprisingly, when a bunch of imbeciles play around with artificial intelligence and don't take enough precautionary measures (like, I dunno, using hardcoded and easy-to-activate killswitches or something), it tends to blow up in said imbeciles' faces.

Yes, yes, they weren't developing AI per se, they just made a bunch of synthetic slaves and upgraded them in such a way that they could attain self-awareness. Pretty retarded that they would miss this little detail, for a race that's supposed to be famous for their technological prowess, especially in the field of synthetic intelligence, isn't it?

I'm sick of Quarians and of cleaning up their shit all the time. If there's a way to finally destroy (more likely sacrifice, makes little difference to me) them all in ME3, I know I'll be gleefully taking it.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

If you play Mass Effect and talk to Tali she says something a long the lines of 'But then a Geth started asking questions so we immediately sent out an order for their destruction! Trying to strike the first blow was the best and only thing we could do.'

When she said that I just thought 'Well that was stupid.'

It was the Quarian's own over reaction and fear that landed them in that mess not the Geth who just defended themselves. I don't really have any sympathy for them.

Oh and they could resettle a homeworld and, over generations, regain their immunities. I find the fact they refuse to do that rather selfish towards an eventual generation that could live without suits...