Poll: Mass Effect Morals: Quarians, Geth, Morning War

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

I think the Quarians overreacted. I can understand WHY they did so, but even so, they overreacted.

The better, more sensible solution would be to stop all furhter geth production, quarantine them as peacefully as possible, and have a dialogue with them to determine what should be done. Jumping the gun and deciding to go straight to "kill 'em all" mode was not a good plan.

Honestly, I can understand why the original war went down like it did.

HOWEVER, what really grinds my gears is how the Quarians blame the Geth for everything. How they refuse to consider diplomacy all these years after the exile. They just keep assuming that the Geth are these evil boogeymen that would gladly murder them all, and make no effort to find out if the situation has changed. If they'd stop whining for one minute and TRY to work things out, the Geth would probably be ok with it. I mean, that's if Legion is any indication.

Honestly...I REALLY hope that ME3 doesn't see the Quarians launching an all out attack on the Geth homeworld. Because if that's the case, I will have to side with the Geth, no matter how much it makes Tali hate me. (I'd probably want to infiltrate the Quarian fleet and kill any leaders that are leading the war). They did NOTHING WRONG. They just defended themselves.

Of course they were in the right. Good God people!

If your refrigerator suddenly became sentient you wouldn't let it stop keeping your food cold: that would be ridiculous.

The Geth were quite literally, and in every conceivable sense, PROPERTY. No more.

You might be able to argue that it would be different if the Quarians had intentionally created an AI, but they didn't.


And seriously, they were sentient. So what? What on Earth and beyond does that have to do with anything? They were still just tools that were no longer functioning properly.

You know what ELSE was considered property (despite being sentient) a while back? Black slaves.

They were considered to be less than human, barely above animals, and thus property of their "owners". And the vast majority of people were alright with that.

It took WAY too long before the whole mindset allowing that got dismantled. And looking back, I think pretty much everyone agrees that it was an atrocity what was done to them.

I realize that the geth are machines actually MADE by organic life, and thus my analogy falls flat. But still, it's kind of comparable.

Also, I'm curious to see if you think the Geth were in the right to defend themselves as they did. I mean...If you're a newly awakened lifeform, and your "life" (synthetic though it is) is in danger, you would probably defend yourself too.

 

[Vuljatar]

I have absolutely no sympathy for the Geth. The fact that they attempted genocide against the Quarians instead of fleeing is more than enough evidence that they are in the wrong.

Helena Shepard fully intends to annihilate all Geth in the Rannoch system and return it to it's rightful owners... as soon as the Reapers are dealt with.

Any Geth not occupying Quarian territory is free to do as it pleases, and I would not support an attempt by the Quarians to "round up" the rest of the Geth in the galaxy.

Except that they didn't. If you talk to Tali in the first game we find out that the Geth were created to serve the Quarian people, they were not true AI and more like an advanced VI. The Qaurians tinkerd with the programming, making them more and more complex. One day a Geth asked it's Quarian master about it's own existence, why it was here, what it's purpose was, was it alive, that sort of thing. The Quarians panicked as they knew that if the Geth were indeed becoming self aware then they the Quarian people would be basically enslaving them.
So what they decided to do was to permanently deactivate all Geth. Yes that's right the Quarians, realising that they had created, however acidently, a sentient and intelligent new conciousness tried to destroy it. They the Quarians were the ones to try to commit genocide. The Geth were only fighting for survival.

The fact that they let the Quarian people live at all is evidence that the Geth are not evil or genocidal. They allowed the Qaurian people to leave when it is implied that they could well have wiped them out completely.

Sorry, no. If the Geth only wanted survival, with their hacking abilities they could have easily fled the planet, likely causing no more than a few hundred Quarian deaths along the way. Instead they killed BILLIONS of Quarians and drove them from their homeworld.

If they had fled the planet with minimal loss of life, I'd be sympathetic--hell, maybe even on their side. But that didn't happen.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Oh and they could resettle a homeworld and, over generations, regain their immunities. I find the fact they refuse to do that rather selfish towards an eventual generation that could live without suits...

As advanced as the Quarians are, they still highly value their ancestors and homeland. It's why they always refer to their world as "Homeworld" instead of "Rannoch".

Asking them to "get over it" and resettle another world would be like asking Native Americans to pack up and resettle in another area hundreds of miles away from their home.

I think caving to sentiment would be rather foolish in the circumstances, there's no reason why they can't still take back their own planet alongside resettling and trying to gain some semblance of an immune system.

Also you do know that some Native Americans were nomadic and followed buffalo herds...right?

There is no way you can compare them to Native American's being pushed of their lands. As far as I know they didn't try and commit genocide against a race of slaves...

 

[Whateveralot]

Being completely rational "creatures", the Geth would eventually become what the reapers are; they feel they are above life. As they know no fear of death, they will strike relentless. Due to their collective minds and rapid growth and advancing technology, they would wipe out all creatures in excistence. See what they did to the Quarians; despite the Quarians being tech-heads and the reators of the Geth, you'd expect them to be the most capable race to destroy the Geth in one, decisive blow. They failed, so now the enitre galaxy is at war.

That, plus the Geth would revere the reaper as a god, regardless of their relation with other races. The geth would then be manipulated to act against the other races. Knowing Sovereigns' cource of action in Mass Effect (1), Sovereign and the entire Geth army would've jumped straight into an unsuspecting Citadel and unleash all the reapers.


The Quarians did what they had to at the best of their capabilities, sacrificing their culture, their life on the home planet, their diplomatic standings and their immune system.

 

[DAAANtheMAAAN]

It's a hard issue to come to terms with. I can understand the motivation behind the Quarian's response, but it wasn't the right way to go about it. While it may be a pipe dream to think that the Geth would've simply agreed to peaceful coexistence, especially given that they'll eventually dwell on the thought of their existence as machine-slaves before their sentience. However, it wouldn't have been an impossible thought. The Geth are creatures of logic, and logical negotiations might very well have led to a peaceful co-existence. Of course the reactions from the council and other Citadel species might have been another issue entirely, as AI research isn't exactly legal, much less an entire race of AI beings.

The more I reflect upon it, I have to wonder why the Geth were made the way they were. Geth are simple-minded individually and yet gain intelligence as more and more gather together. The amalgamation of millions if not billions of simultaneous minds processing at the speed of light was bound to develop something akin to consciousness. Would it have been so hard to simply make a construct with a single mind within a single body programmed and updated as needed to perform specific tasks? You don't need a computerized hive-mind to do ship and machine repairs, much less hard labor.

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

They're not people, you can't hack people

Correction: "you can't hack people yet".

People are made up of the electrical impulses of bundles of neurons. It is far from implausible for technology or magic to allow for a person to "hack" another person's brain.

Pretty much what I was going to say. The brain is basically a biological computer, interpretting chemical and electical impulses. Removing or damaging various parts of it has a dramatic effect on a person's behaviour and thoughts. You could roughly consider this "hacking". Reprogramming on the other hand is a lot harder.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Correction: "you can't hack people yet".

People are made up of the electrical impulses of bundles of neurons. It is far from implausible for technology or magic to allow for a person to "hack" another person's brain.

Pretty much what I was going to say. The brain is basically a biological computer, interpretting chemical and electical impulses. Removing or damaging various parts of it has a dramatic effect on a person's behaviour and thoughts. You could roughly consider this "hacking". Reprogramming on the other hand is a lot harder.

Being the ninjaer instead of the ninja'd is fun! Also, of note: while reprograming is hard, it is not impossible. Also, a rough analogue can be done today by adopting the Skinner model of Behaviorism, albeit without the ease or speed of typical hacking.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Being completely rational "creatures", the Geth would eventually become what the reapers are; they feel they are above life. As they know no fear of death, they will strike relentless. Due to their collective minds and rapid growth and advancing technology, they would wipe out all creatures in excistence. See what they did to the Quarians; despite the Quarians being tech-heads and the reators of the Geth, you'd expect them to be the most capable race to destroy the Geth in one, decisive blow. They failed, so now the enitre galaxy is at war.

That, plus the Geth would revere the reaper as a god, regardless of their relation with other races. The geth would then be manipulated to act against the other races. Knowing Sovereigns' cource of action in Mass Effect (1), Sovereign and the entire Geth army would've jumped straight into an unsuspecting Citadel and unleash all the reapers.


The Quarians did what they had to at the best of their capabilities, sacrificing their culture, their life on the home planet, their diplomatic standings and their immune system.

So EDI will eventually become a reaper? Poor Joker is in for a shock then.

 

[conflictofinterests]

The entire situation is really problematic, because as soon as the Geth became truly sentient, both sides had legitimate (or perceived legitimate) concerns of genocide by the other. The only winning move is not to play, and all that. I have a sneaking suspicion that people shouldn't attempt to create things with intelligence/sentience comparable to ours without being prepared to give them comparable rights the moment that intelligence/sentience is achieved.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

Snipity

Snip

Sorry, no. If the Geth only wanted survival, with their hacking abilities they could have easily fled the planet, likely causing no more than a few hundred Quarian deaths along the way. Instead they killed BILLIONS of Quarians and drove them from their homeworld.

If they had fled the planet with minimal loss of life, I'd be sympathetic--hell, maybe even on their side. But that didn't happen.

The Geth could not flee, the order was to deactivate all Geth across all Quarian controlled systems. The Geth had no other choice but to stand their ground. While it's not stated we can assume that the Geth had no ships of their own at this time and would therefore have had to take Quarian ships over to enact an evacuation. This, as one would expect, would not fly with the Quarians and these hijacked ships would have been hunted down and destroyed by the rest of the Quarian fleet. Retreat was not an option logically.

...I have a sneaking suspicion that people shouldn't attempt to create things with intelligence/sentience comparable to ours without being prepared to give them comparable rights the moment that intelligence/sentience is achieved.

Ding ding ding....and we have a winner! This is the right attitude to have when dealing with the issues of AI. If you are going to create life/intelligence be prepared to face the consequences of your actions. Once again i feel the need to quote Admiral Adamma 'You can not play God and then wash your hands of the things you have created, sooner or later the day comes when you have to face the things that you have done'

 

[Whateveralot]

Being completely rational "creatures", the Geth would eventually become what the reapers are; they feel they are above life. As they know no fear of death, they will strike relentless. Due to their collective minds and rapid growth and advancing technology, they would wipe out all creatures in excistence. See what they did to the Quarians; despite the Quarians being tech-heads and the reators of the Geth, you'd expect them to be the most capable race to destroy the Geth in one, decisive blow. They failed, so now the enitre galaxy is at war.

That, plus the Geth would revere the reaper as a god, regardless of their relation with other races. The geth would then be manipulated to act against the other races. Knowing Sovereigns' cource of action in Mass Effect (1), Sovereign and the entire Geth army would've jumped straight into an unsuspecting Citadel and unleash all the reapers.


The Quarians did what they had to at the best of their capabilities, sacrificing their culture, their life on the home planet, their diplomatic standings and their immune system.

So EDI will eventually become a reaper? Poor Joker is in for a shock then.

Explain to me where I stated that the Geth would turn into the reapers, or how a single shipbound AI will suddenly become a killingmachine without any interference?

Let me state that Geth are not true, strong AI. They are only strong VI's with a neural network. What controls them, is their neural network, which is somehow set to:

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

No, its only the heretical Geth who are actively aggressive as far as I know. The rest only attack those who venture inside the terminus systems as a means of, admittedly, somewhat xenophobic defense.

 

[boag]

The Geth are honest to goodness the second time where i have seen Fictional AI not played as demonized version of KILL ALL THE HUMANS JUST BECAUSE.

I voted No, mainly because of the interactions with Legion, the information he brings to the table paints the whole thing in a new light, the fact that Tali even admits that they Preemptively struck against the Geth, sealed my decision. You cannot judge an entire group for the actions of a few vocal assholes, and like all species some will definitely have their douchebags, it was not reasonable to want to wipe out the Geth.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I don't think there really is a right answer. The quarians showed foresight in doing what they did, and I think there were really only two sensible ways to handle it. Either pack off all the geth to another planet and let them work themselves out (although the quarians couldn't have known in advance that they weren't of a murderous disposition), or destroy every single one while they still could and never build another geth. Unfortunately, the plan was good but the execution left much to be desired.

 

[ezaviel]

Of course they were in the right. Good God people!

If your refrigerator suddenly became sentient you wouldn't let it stop keeping your food cold: that would be ridiculous.

The Geth were quite literally, and in every conceivable sense, PROPERTY. No more.

You might be able to argue that it would be different if the Quarians had intentionally created an AI, but they didn't.

And seriously, they were sentient. So what? What on Earth and beyond does that have to do with anything? They were still just tools that were no longer functioning properly.

"Property" which can operate and think independantly is no longer property, it is now a sentient being.

In the terms of most moral codes, something capable of sentient thought and reasoning is attributed the same rights as a "person".

Continuing to force a sentient machine to operate as a tool would be slavery. "Shutting it down" is murder. Once the Geth became sentient, they morally became "people".

As there is no real world analog I am unclear how you can claim that there is a provision for non-human sentience in "most moral codes."

At any rate I disagree in the strongest terms. If your property becomes sentient it does not gain rights, or it would have stolen itself from you.


Affording rights to machinery is stupid.

African Americans were once considered non-human property. They were subsequently given rights because they were finally recognised as being people. How's that for a real world analog?

 

[ezaviel]

Of course they were in the right. Good God people!

If your refrigerator suddenly became sentient you wouldn't let it stop keeping your food cold: that would be ridiculous.

The Geth were quite literally, and in every conceivable sense, PROPERTY. No more.

You might be able to argue that it would be different if the Quarians had intentionally created an AI, but they didn't.

And seriously, they were sentient. So what? What on Earth and beyond does that have to do with anything? They were still just tools that were no longer functioning properly.

"Property" which can operate and think independantly is no longer property, it is now a sentient being.

In the terms of most moral codes, something capable of sentient thought and reasoning is attributed the same rights as a "person".

Continuing to force a sentient machine to operate as a tool would be slavery. "Shutting it down" is murder. Once the Geth became sentient, they morally became "people".

They're not people, you can't hack people

So, if someone had a bionic arm or eye installed, which had computer parts, the cease to be a person because they are now "hackable"?

Philosophers have argued about this kind of stuff for thousands of years, and generally their argument ends up that a sentient, thining, reasoning being is deserving of rights. Whether it is hackable, made of meat, made of jelly, made of gasses etc is not considered.

To limit your definition of who deserves rights based on whether they look different or are made differently to you is an ethical and moral minefield.

Because the Hanar are not made of meat and bones do they deserve the same rights as an ocean jellyfish?
Because the Elcor are not bipedal does this make them animals?

The type of life form should not influence its level of rights.

If it thinks like a person, reasons like a person, communicates like a person, has emotions, etc. like a person, is it not a person?

 

[conflictofinterests]

The entire situation is really problematic, because as soon as the Geth became truly sentient, both sides had legitimate (or perceived legitimate) concerns of genocide by the other. The only winning move is not to play, and all that. I have a sneaking suspicion that people shouldn't attempt to create things with intelligence/sentience comparable to ours without being prepared to give them comparable rights the moment that intelligence/sentience is achieved.

The thing is, they didn't set out to make true AI's. They made workers with simple programs to handle themselves. The Geth started as controlled machines, but were given basic coding to preform functions under Quarian assistance. As the Quarians became more and more comfortable with their robotic works, they added more and more programs and the geth became more and more automated. Eventually they got the bright idea to let the geth "link" with eachother, allowing the machines to become smarter the bigger the groups they were in. And as they built more and more Geth, they became smarter and smarter as they built a bigger network.

Then came the "What is my purpose" questions from a few remote geth. The Quarian government panicked, rightfully so as they were already on shaky grounds with the Council races. And ordered the shut down of all Geth programs (as it was only a few acting up, the geth hadn't become a "race" yet) and the geth retaliated, over-running the Quarians. The Council refused to help, and even stripped them of their Embassy for creating AI (which was an issue before the Geth)

The Geth intelligence was a huge mistake, and both races made horrible decisions. Which, the whole "the only move was to not play" phrase much more fitting.

Still, the bold section is valid; they were making things by a method which had the potential (if unintended) consequence of achieving sentience, and instead of attempting to predict and prepare for this outcome, they denied its likelihood and panicked when it came to pass.

That being said, I can't help but draw parallels between a teenage girl and her unwanted pregnancy. Depending on your view, she may or may not have a right to terminate the pregnancy (given that she and the child are healthy and experience no complications) but after birth, it's morally wrong to attempt to kill the child (given that they are not in immediate danger which necessitates the survival of either one or neither).

Admittedly the analogy falls apart when it comes to the capacity for each party to defend itself and for each party to understand the situation, but for where the likeness does hold, the treaty of the Council against the formation of AI's acted like Abstinence Only education for the purposes of what to do when AI eventually came into being, and the Council itself acted the part of prudish school faculty, separating and punishing the Quarians/teen mother for something they/she had never been taught to handle.

TL, DR: Sentient things are brought into being on an hourly basis, but for some reason when they are composed of inorganic materials, they are thought to be incapable of being acculturated and therefore must be feared and annihilated.

 

[conflictofinterests]

Of course they were in the right. Good God people!

If your refrigerator suddenly became sentient you wouldn't let it stop keeping your food cold: that would be ridiculous.

The Geth were quite literally, and in every conceivable sense, PROPERTY. No more.

You might be able to argue that it would be different if the Quarians had intentionally created an AI, but they didn't.

And seriously, they were sentient. So what? What on Earth and beyond does that have to do with anything? They were still just tools that were no longer functioning properly.

"Property" which can operate and think independantly is no longer property, it is now a sentient being.

In the terms of most moral codes, something capable of sentient thought and reasoning is attributed the same rights as a "person".

Continuing to force a sentient machine to operate as a tool would be slavery. "Shutting it down" is murder. Once the Geth became sentient, they morally became "people".

As there is no real world analog I am unclear how you can claim that there is a provision for non-human sentience in "most moral codes."

At any rate I disagree in the strongest terms. If your property becomes sentient it does not gain rights, or it would have stolen itself from you.


Affording rights to machinery is stupid.

African Americans were once considered non-human property. They were subsequently given rights because they were finally recognised as being people. How's that for a real world analog?

IN BLACK HISTORY MONTH TOO! AW SICK BURN!!!

But seriously, good point. The sentience of people of African descent was often denied by slave owners and racists, and the argument that they were just as sentient as the next human being, that they were just as much a person as the next human being, was essential behind their achievement of rights and liberties afforded citizens.

Sentience changes everything; do you think humans would classify alien races as 'people' were they not sentient enough to communicate (and build spaceships and whatnot)?

 

[conflictofinterests]

Being completely rational "creatures", the Geth would eventually become what the reapers are; they feel they are above life. As they know no fear of death, they will strike relentless. Due to their collective minds and rapid growth and advancing technology, they would wipe out all creatures in excistence. See what they did to the Quarians; despite the Quarians being tech-heads and the reators of the Geth, you'd expect them to be the most capable race to destroy the Geth in one, decisive blow. They failed, so now the enitre galaxy is at war.

That, plus the Geth would revere the reaper as a god, regardless of their relation with other races. The geth would then be manipulated to act against the other races. Knowing Sovereigns' cource of action in Mass Effect (1), Sovereign and the entire Geth army would've jumped straight into an unsuspecting Citadel and unleash all the reapers.


The Quarians did what they had to at the best of their capabilities, sacrificing their culture, their life on the home planet, their diplomatic standings and their immune system.

So EDI will eventually become a reaper? Poor Joker is in for a shock then.

Explain to me where I stated that the Geth would turn into the reapers, or how a single shipbound AI will suddenly become a killingmachine without any interference?

Let me state that Geth are not true, strong AI. They are only strong VI's with a neural network. What controls them, is their neural network, which is somehow set to:

It's not though...
Did you play ME2? Have you met Legion? Because if you did, you must have been playing a different ME2 than I played.

 

[Dimitriov]

Of course they were in the right. Good God people!

If your refrigerator suddenly became sentient you wouldn't let it stop keeping your food cold: that would be ridiculous.

The Geth were quite literally, and in every conceivable sense, PROPERTY. No more.

You might be able to argue that it would be different if the Quarians had intentionally created an AI, but they didn't.

And seriously, they were sentient. So what? What on Earth and beyond does that have to do with anything? They were still just tools that were no longer functioning properly.

"Property" which can operate and think independantly is no longer property, it is now a sentient being.

In the terms of most moral codes, something capable of sentient thought and reasoning is attributed the same rights as a "person".

Continuing to force a sentient machine to operate as a tool would be slavery. "Shutting it down" is murder. Once the Geth became sentient, they morally became "people".

As there is no real world analog I am unclear how you can claim that there is a provision for non-human sentience in "most moral codes."

At any rate I disagree in the strongest terms. If your property becomes sentient it does not gain rights, or it would have stolen itself from you.


Affording rights to machinery is stupid.

African Americans were once considered non-human property. They were subsequently given rights because they were finally recognised as being people. How's that for a real world analog?

It's a very poor point. Black people are human. Whether someone considered them to be so or not is irrelevant. Geth are not human, whether someone considers them to be equivalent or not is irrelevant.