Poll: Moral choices in RPGs

[A Weakgeek]

I'm gonna try and be fast here. Nowdays almost all major RPGs have moral choices we all know that, but what if i said it wasn't neccesarily so?

This occured to me while I was observing my friend playing Masseffect 2. There was this part where he had a choice of killing or sparing a person, he chose to kill him. I then went ahead and asked what may sound a stupid question: Why? He looked me like I was a retard, and said "Because I wanted to" then i continued "Yeah, but why did you?. Did you really think he deserved it?" He then again looked at me very patiently and said " I'm playing as a bad guy now, I'm going to make a new save, THEN ill be the good guy." This struk me as odd and we continued, forgot it for now. Later I saw the demo for dragon age 2, I watched the conversations, and something struck me there. There was a round indicator telling you if your choice was Good/Bad/Neutral. Then i realized, these black and white choices aren't to create a moral dilemma, they are simply there to make you play through twice.I thought of this for some time and begun to see all the pointlessness of the whole deal.

As you might have noticed these 2 games are both Bioware RPGs but there is a point. I was a mere 12 year old when I played KotOR and was a huge fan, but even though KotOR 2 was lackluster in general there was 1 thing I didn't expect. In the game you are a Jedi and trained by a mysterious woman who actually is a sith, and in the course of the game she does teach something to you. Theres a scene where a beggar asks you for money, but if you choose to give him some in events that follow he is robbed and ends up worse than before. I got lightside points, but as I thought about it I knew it wasn't that simple. As a young child I was terrified about this, since I was sincerely thinking I was doing the right thing. This lead me not caring about the Darkside/Lightside point system but to start actually thinking the moral choices. The moral of the deed and its conciquenses. But really no, I don't think it was intentional because there actually is a gameplay mechanic that encourages to be either full dark or light. In the end though, I end up with little below neutral moral rating. But there was 1 thing, there was not a single choice I felt I did wrong and I would dare to say that I grew up a little.

I admit, there is a lot up to the player in these situations, but in newer games I can't think the choices as my own, they are so Purely evil/good most of the time. So what do you think escapists? Are the moral choices in games like ME2 and DA:O/DA2 for actual moral dilemmas or for replay value?

 

[Irridium]

This is why I hate most current morality systems. They all conform to some stupid slider or bar or whatever. Its also why I love The Witcher and New Vegas. There is no bar that tells you whats good or bad. New Vegas has karma yeah, but it doesn't mean anything.

They use factions. And it puts your own personal morals against the morals/agendas of other people. Must more fulfilling and much more interesting. It also opens up a neutral path, which is sorely absent from most games.

As for if moral choices are actual moral dilemmas or not, I'd say that they are, they're just screwed over by a good/evil bar that people will want to fill instead of choosing what they really believe.

 

[Wapox]

There was a round indicator telling you if your choice was Good/Bad/Neutral. Then i realized, these black and white choices aren't to create a moral dilemma, they are simply there to make you play through twice.I thought of this for some time and begun to see all the pointlessness of the whole deal.

The indicator does not tell you whether it is a good/evil decision, it tells you what type of decision it is, IE: pleasing, wise-cracking, head-on, which is generally a good way to put it, there is more diversity in it, since you choose to be tough, "funny" or all round pleasant.

OT: Yes, the moral choice system in Kotor2 was awesome compared to BioWare's Moral choice system, however, the system in DA2 is not half bad in comparison to the OTHER BioWare moracl choice systems.

 

[Griphphin]

You make a good point here. I think that they are for moral choices, but they don't make for good ones in my opinion. The black/white takes away the player choice from it. I'm more for choice-consequence with good/evil implications.

 

[A Weakgeek]

This is why I hate most current morality systems. They all conform to some stupid slider or bar or whatever. Its also why I love The Witcher and New Vegas. There is no bar that tells you whats good or bad. New Vegas has karma yeah, but it doesn't mean anything.As for if moral choices are actual moral dilemmas or not, I'd say that they are, they're just screwed over by a good/evil bar that people will want to fill instead of choosing what they really believe.

SPOILERS!

Newvegas nailed it pretty well I think. A player who doesen't want to get deep into the whole moral thing will make a conclusion: Choose yourself neutral, Legion bad, NCR good, but that isin't the whole thing now is it? There are people who hate NCR even though they don't seem to have reason, does the NCR supress the people it "keeps safe" are they truly just? Also if you take over how will the other factions react? Will such stunt cause war between the other factions? Who knows.

 

[A Weakgeek]

There was a round indicator telling you if your choice was Good/Bad/Neutral. Then i realized, these black and white choices aren't to create a moral dilemma, they are simply there to make you play through twice.I thought of this for some time and begun to see all the pointlessness of the whole deal.

The indicator does not tell you whether it is a good/evil decision, it tells you what type of decision it is, IE: pleasing, wise-cracking, head-on, which is generally a good way to put it, there is more diversity in it, since you choose to be tough, "funny" or all round pleasant.

OT: Yes, the moral choice system in Kotor2 was awesome compared to BioWare's Moral choice system, however, the system in DA2 is not half bad in comparison to the OTHER BioWare moracl choice systems.

Well I'll be sure to judge only when i get the game, even if it seems a little harsh on the OP.

 

[crazyfoxdemon]

That's why I prefer the old fashioned Lawful,Chaotic,Good,Evil, Neutral system that DnD uses. I really dislike the whole Good/Evil system that most games use. In most cases, it's simply a choice between an idolized good guy paladin archetype or a machiavelian evil marauder of death.. No in between or anything more complicated then that...

 

[thatman]

I dislike games with moral choice systems with a 'morality meter' or that affect your available conversation options as they result in you inevitably having to define your character as evil or good to play a file well. The worst offender in this regard that i can remember playing recently is mass effect 2. I thought the overall gameplay was excellent, but the paragon/renegade conversation options pissed me off as only through the use of these could you resolve some situations peacefully. I started the game off with the intention of playing it strictly as i would if i were Shepard, but that was ruined as halfway through i was forced to get paragon to max so i could complete a loyalty mission in the 'paragon route' (cos i really hated the renegade approach). This kind of moral choice system is redundant in my opinion and systems which are purely player choice based on individual events with no 'morality meter' should be used (I.e. Each individual moral choice affects the story, but there is no overhanging morality level connected to the character.)

 

[iblis666]

extra credit has said it pretty well but ill say it now that id love a system that no matter what choice you make it impacts the game in some way and not always in the way you would expect

 

[AndrewF022]

I'd prefer to do away with the sliders and ratings to begin with, just have every choice have its respected consequence, it means you may not be sure of whether what you did was good or bad until after the events that follow your decision have played out, or morally gray choices, i love those, The Witcher and Fallout 3's Broken Steel DLC are what I'd consider good examples of it.

 

[Criquefreak]

Consequences of moral decisions in a game should be illustrated through story, in-game event consequences, and/or subtle influences not an obvious mechanic displayed on the user interface.

Forcing someone's perception of what is good and what is evil on the player will always seem out of place if not jarring. Besides, there's more fun in replayability through discovery than there is in metagaming.

 

[godofallu]

Yeah telling you what;s right and wrong eliminates the entire point of decision making.

The point of decision making is to do what you feel is best based on YOUR MORALS. If the game tells you what your morals should be that's just cheating.

Even worse is when the GAMES ARE WRONG. I hate it when I do an act that I consider good, but the game says is neutral or even evil.

Like in DA:Origins for example a kid is possessed by a demon and consequently is killing innocent people and his own family. So I killed him in order to save the town and put the poor kid out of his misery. The amount of evil points I got off that made my damn team hate me. Strange since I thought it was a heroic act.

At least DA 1 didn't tell you the morality, the new ones does. How lame.

 

[fierydemise]

You cannot view moral choice systems as black and white. In games where the moral choice is clearly integrated storywise into the game they can be fine. For example KOTOR had a moral choice system and while it was capricious and arbitrary like most moral choice systems it was much less objectionable since the Star Wars universe is set up around the lightside darkside distinction with each side being very clearly defined. I was much less bothered by the choice between lawful good and chaotic evil because that is exactly how the force is defined in universe.

By contrast FO3 had a moral choice system that was worthless from a universe perspective, even if we ignore the infinite beggar water nonsense.

 

[magicmonkeybars]

I agree games like ME/DA are more about the moral perception of the developer than the players morality.
I like games like Alpha Protocol and The Witcher because they don't have a right or wrong/ good or bad, you just make choices and live with the consequences.

Kotor and ME don't reward moral ambiguity or neutrality, to get the most rewards you need to just play a "good guy" or a "bad guy" or miss out on the benefits of both.

 

[Woodsey]

I'm pretty sure the Dragon Age 2 wheel changes depending on context, since the symbols seem to change. And the Dragon Age games don't have a morality metre anyway, but companion influence.

As for Mass Effect, you're still the hero, its just about which type of hero you are, as opposed whether or not you turn into the big bad.

I like moral ambiguity, but I also like the more classical version too - it depends on the game, what my character is supposed to be like, the nature of the in-game universe, etc.

 

[mireko]

The three indicators on the wheel are Friendly, Neutral and Hostile. This is not the same as good, neutral and bad. They're supposed to indicate the tone of what you're saying to a character, so a threat will be a hostile response even if you're talking to a complete monster.

There is a lot of room for improvement (adding more consequences, for example), but the dialogue as it is works quite well.

At least it didn't devolve like Jade Empire's system.

I agree games like ME/DA are more about the moral perception of the developer than the players morality.
I like games like Alpha Protocol and The Witcher because they don't have a right or wrong/ good or bad, you just make choices and live with the consequences.

Kotor and ME don't reward moral ambiguity or neutrality, to get the most rewards you need to just play a "good guy" or a "bad guy" or miss out on the benefits of both.

Dragon Age: Origins doesn't actually contain a good/bad slider though. I know it seems like that whenever you have Alistair in your party, but it only gauges how much the characters agree with your actions.

Now, it does come pretty close (if you figure that Wynne=Lawful Good and Morrigan=Chaotic Evil), but that's still down to your own interpretation of the system.

[small]DA2 has a nearly identical friend/rival system.[/small]

 

[IBlackKiteI]

Moral choices have the potential to be great, but as they are now they are almost always some silly little gimmick.

That's why I find Deus Ex and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. to have the best moral choice systems, because they don't actually have them. For example you can kill a guy and take his money, and there are often major repercussions for that ingame, but without the game suddenly saying
'+5 Renegade points! You're evil now!'
And the game changes depending on your actions, not dialogue options.

If these choices are done properly in the first place then you don't need to be constantly reminded that your character is doing something right or wrong.

 

[octafish]

I'm pretty sure the Dragon Age 2 wheel changes depending on context, since the symbols seem to change. And the Dragon Age games don't have a morality metre anyway, but companion influence.

As for Mass Effect, you're still the hero, its just about which type of hero you are, as opposed whether or not you turn into the big bad.

I like moral ambiguity, but I also like the more classical version too - it depends on the game, what my character is supposed to be like, the nature of the in-game universe, etc.

Ahh see as I was reading the OP I was thinking this guy needs to try The Witcher or Alpha Protocol, I'm currently playing AP and the decisions you make are based on various things, executing this character will stop him from harming others, on the other hand if I spare him he could supply intel to bring down a larger evil. There are no evil choices it is more a matter of priorities. I always liked the Tenpenny Tower ghouls quest in Fallout 3 because there was no way to be the good guy except by not doing it.

 

[Hikikomori Ookami]

That's why I prefer the old fashioned Lawful,Chaotic,Good,Evil, Neutral system that DnD uses. I really dislike the whole Good/Evil system that most games use. In most cases, it's simply a choice between an idolized good guy paladin archetype or a machiavelian evil marauder of death.. No in between or anything more complicated then that...

I agree completely. Games these days, especially console games, focus too much on black and white. Fitting for Star Wars games, as the Jedi seem to believe if you aren't "good" you must be evil. It just isn't realistic though. The DnD alignment system is the best I've seen, and tells a person a lot about themselves if they make in-game choices that actually fit their personality. Sadly, I'm not aware of many good computer or console games that use the system, so I would be happy if you could point me that direction crazyfoxdemon...

 

[WanderingFool]

I agree.

That's why I prefer the old fashioned Lawful,Chaotic,Good,Evil, Neutral system that DnD uses. I really dislike the whole Good/Evil system that most games use. In most cases, it's simply a choice between an idolized good guy paladin archetype or a machiavelian evil marauder of death.. No in between or anything more complicated then that...

I agree completely. Games these days, especially console games, focus too much on black and white. Fitting for Star Wars games, as the Jedi seem to believe if you aren't "good" you must be evil. It just isn't realistic though. The DnD alignment system is the best I've seen, and tells a person a lot about themselves if they make in-game choices that actually fit their personality. Sadly, I'm not aware of many good computer or console games that use the system, so I would be happy if you could point me that direction crazyfoxdemon...

And I agree with this. Also, I would give Never Winter Nights a shot if you havent tried it...